#1
Sup,

So i've been learning a bit of theory and some fancy new chords so I had a bash at writing something the other day.

I was messing around with a G# minor chord and found that an Edim works the way I like it to, only thing is that it doesn't seem to fit in any particular key as the F# major key has an E#dim as the vii and the F major key has a Gminor as the ii.

Is there any reason why that progression (if you can call it that) works the way it does? I don't know anything about substitute chords so I dunno if it's anything to do with that, I just know I like the sound of it and that can't for the life of me figure out what else to do with it.

Thanks

And as far as i'm concerned i'm the only person in the world to ever use those 2 chords together so if I hear any new releases revolving around those 2 chords I will know you stole my idea
Last edited by Calibos at Dec 10, 2009,
#2
G#m and Edim will work together if you play a C# somewhere in the context of the song; which would make it G Harmonic Minor.
#3
I find that most diminished chords work at the end of a progression. I never really use much theory when I'm writing I just mess around with what sounds good but when it comes to a diminish chord.. it just feels so final and with a good build up of tension. and yes I do use them in most of my songs
#4
Quote by Calibos
Sup,

So i've been learning a bit of theory and some fancy new chords so I had a bash at writing something the other day.

I was messing around with a G# minor chord and found that an Edim works the way I like it to, only thing is that it doesn't seem to fit in any particular key as the F# major key has an E#dim as the vii and the F major key has a Gminor as the ii.

Is there any reason why that progression (if you can call it that) works the way it does? I don't know anything about substitute chords so I dunno if it's anything to do with that, I just know I like the sound of it and that can't for the life of me figure out what else to do with it.

Thanks

And as far as i'm concerned i'm the only person in the world to ever use those 2 chords together so if I hear any new releases revolving around those 2 chords I will know you stole my idea


Well if you substitute the E dim with an A♯dim chord (which are enharmonic chords when the diminished sevenths are added), then you have a vi - vii° - I in B major.
#5
Quote by Abacus11
G#m and Edim will work together if you play a C# somewhere in the context of the song; which would make it G Harmonic Minor.


So if I was going down from the vii to the vi then the E#dim vii would go down a semitone to an Edim?

F# Harmonic Minor Scale
F# - G# - A - B - C# - D - E# - F#
#6
Quote by Calibos
So if I was going down from the vii to the vi then the E#dim vii would go down a semitone to an Edim?

F# Harmonic Minor Scale
F# - G# - A - B - C# - D - E# - F#


The other guy's post was incorrect. G♯m isn't in the key of G minor.
#7
Quote by isaac_bandits
Well if you substitute the E dim with an A♯dim chord (which are enharmonic chords when the diminished sevenths are added), then you have a vi - vii° - I in B major.


Interesting. I'll have to try that one out. Thanks
#8
It´s simply a i - viidim in the key of G# minor.


Edim is enharmonic to F##dim (Fississ dim), which is considered diatonic to G# minor and acts as a dominant chord - the viidim. So a more logical naming would be F##dim.

The equivalent in A minor would be G#dim.

Quite simple really. Dim chords, however, can be quite ambigious.


And sorry, you´re a couple hundred years late to call dibs


Also, not sure if you´re talking about dim in the sense of a diminished triad or a diminished 7th chord (don´t know if you´re from USA or Europe or elsewhere), in this post I used dim refering to diminished 7th chord, however even talking about a diminished triad what I said would, more or less apply (an E dim triad and F## dim triad aren´t enharmonic, but if played together with G# minor, an E dim triad would still feel like a dominant chord).
#9
Quote by Calibos
Sup,

And as far as i'm concerned i'm the only person in the world to ever use those 2 chords together so if I hear any new releases revolving around those 2 chords I will know you stole my idea


Following the logic of your quote:

So if you are the only person in the world to use those two chords, and I were to give you the answer, does that mean you'd be stealing MY idea?

I mean if its your idea, shouldnt *you* be figuring out *your* own question?

Am I right here, in being under the impression that you want to have free unabashed help from a forum for your benefit, but if someone should benefit from something you have, its considered "stealing"?
#10
sigh, I think it was a joke. At least he's not rying to sell us the chords.
#12
If he claims those chords I claim the Cmaj Gmaj Dmaj progresson.
Quote by Tyler Durden
It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything.

Erowid
#13
Quote by Sean0913
Following the logic of your quote:

So if you are the only person in the world to use those two chords, and I were to give you the answer, does that mean you'd be stealing MY idea?

I mean if its your idea, shouldnt *you* be figuring out *your* own question?

Am I right here, in being under the impression that you want to have free unabashed help from a forum for your benefit, but if someone should benefit from something you have, its considered "stealing"?


#14
Quote by descara
It´s simply a i - viidim in the key of G# minor.


Edim is enharmonic to F##dim (Fississ dim), which is considered diatonic to G# minor and acts as a dominant chord - the viidim. So a more logical naming would be F##dim.

The equivalent in A minor would be G#dim.


MY BRAIN!!!!!!!!! So is an F## just a G? How do enharmonic the values come into play here? I know the basics, like A# is enharmonic to Bb, but i'm getting confused how Edim is enharmonic to F##. Clearly I need to study harder, is there a specific lesson I can study on enharmonic values or similiar?

Quite simple really.
My feeble brain struggles to comprehend the simplicity
Dim chords, however, can be quite ambigious.


And sorry, you´re a couple hundred years late to call dibs


But....but.... ahh man

Also, not sure if you´re talking about dim in the sense of a diminished triad or a diminished 7th chord (don´t know if you´re from USA or Europe or elsewhere), in this post I used dim refering to diminished 7th chord, however even talking about a diminished triad what I said would, more or less apply (an E dim triad and F## dim triad aren´t enharmonic, but if played together with G# minor, an E dim triad would still feel like a dominant chord).


Oh sorry dude, yeah I was talking about Diminished 7th or bb7 (6) chords (think that's right). I've become kinda obsessed with them, I love the dissonance they create to give a piece a sinister, murky sound. I've only just started to really experiment with them and slash chords so it's like a whole new universe has opened up, really enjoy playing at the minute
Last edited by Calibos at Dec 11, 2009,
#15
F## (or x if you will, but I find that confusing without exactly the right sign... dunno if there is one in normal typesets) diminished 7th chord: F## A# C# E
E diminished 7th chord: E G Bb Db

G and F## are enharmonic, A# and Bb are enharmonic and C# and Db are enharmonic.

F## diminished 7th chord is simply the more logical way of naming it when played in the key of G# minor.


What I meant with simple is that the progression itself is quite simple just being the tonic chord and a dominant chord really Didn´t mean to sound arrogant or somesuch.
#16
Quote by descara
F## (or x if you will, but I find that confusing without exactly the right sign... dunno if there is one in normal typesets) diminished 7th chord: F## A# C# E
E diminished 7th chord: E G Bb Db

G and F## are enharmonic, A# and Bb are enharmonic and C# and Db are enharmonic.

F## diminished 7th chord is simply the more logical way of naming it when played in the key of G# minor.


Ok, I think I get that. Is it to do with the fact you only use each note once?

What I meant with simple is that the progression itself is quite simple just being the tonic chord and a dominant chord really Didn´t mean to sound arrogant or somesuch.


Nah it's cool bro It's my own ignorance that prevents me from understanding, though thankfully it's starting to make a bit more sense
#17
Quote by Calibos
Ok, I think I get that. Is it to do with the fact you only use each note once?


Well, yeah. Or more fundamentally: we have a set of 7 scale degrees and name chords and notes according to what is logical in a given key.

If you don´t mind, I´ll explain this transposed to the key of A minor, where we won´t have to use double sharps and maybe it will make more sense


In A minor, G#dim is one of two chords with a dominant function. In function analysis, it is written viidim (not really relevant to this but good to know).

Now, the viidim is constructed on the major 7th degree (G#), called the leading note.

We use the diminished 7th chord formula (1 b3 b5 bb7) and and get the notes G#, B, D and F.

Maybe you now see now that saying Fdim instead of G#dim doesn´t make much sense - an Fdim has the notes of F, Ab, Cb and Ebb, and while these are enharmonic to a G#dim, it´s simply illogical to use in the context of [the key of] A minor. If we played our tonic chord, Am, after an Fdim, we would get this voice leading:


F to E (only thing that makes sense)
Ab to A
Cb to C
Ebb to for example E or C

Hopefully you see how awkward this is! G#dim is simply much more logical than Fdim, since G#dim is considered diatonic to they key of A minor. Fdim is only "enharmonically diatonic", if that´s a proper phrase.


Here´s an image visually demonstrating the case in point. Upper row is a Fdim to A minor chord (E in the bass), lower row is third inversion G#dim (enharmonic to uninverted Fdim) to A minor. So, these two rows sound the same, even though you have to use 2 flats and a double flat for one of them. As you can see, what is happening is not reflected visually in the first row.




Now, you might go "hey! there´s no G# in the A minor scale!", however, minor keys aren´t really viewed best with a set scale in mind. The 7th scale degree is likely appear both minor (G) and major (G#) in a chord progression within a minor key. The reason for that is that without the G#, you wouldn´t really get any resolution moving to the tonic.

Hence, both dominant function chords (which both contains a G#), E and G#dim, are considered diatonic to the key of A minor.


Applied to the key of G# minor, we get this:

Whereas F##dim is diatonic to the key of G# minor and is the viidim chord in analysis (a dominant function chord), Edim is only "enharmonically diatonic" to G# minor. Hence, F##dim is the proper, more logical name.


Okay, sorry for the lengthy read. Just wanted to make everything crystal clear. Hope it wasn´t too hard to follow, otherwise I will facepalm at myself


EDIT: fixed a thingy
Last edited by descara at Dec 11, 2009,