#1
according to scale pattern, for example the some chords will be like Am /Bm/ C /D/Em/F dim in the key of G

my question is now how to can i add--- sus2 sus4 add9 chords to the progression?
#2
Hmm...I've never really used them in anything I have written. I'm curious too.
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#3
There are three reasons to use extended chords (anything other than minor, major, diminished or augmented).

Firstly, because you've written your piece in free counterpoint and have several voices making odd intervals with one another. This is especially true in early jazz, where several instruments would play something completely different to another instrument, which creates a number of melodies working at once. Seeing as this is done most easily by writing each voice with a similar rhythm, you'll start to create chords by the piling of the voices.
Say, at one point in the song, a trombone is playing A, a bass sax C, a tenor sax E, a trumpet G and a soprano sax B, which makes Am9). These note piles will form chords, usually extended chord.

Or, you could use extended chords to better fit your melody. For instance, let's say the main melody (the one that stands out from each and every other voice) uses a lot of B's, but the underlying harmony (aka, the chord playing at that moment in the chord progression) is actually Am. In this instance, a composer may want to use Amadd9, just because an Amadd9 will work with the melody better.

Or, just because it sounds right. Personally, I don't agree with this method. Why use a complex tool if you can use the simpler, easier tool?

My advice to anyone "wondering" whether or not to use them is don't. If you don't know how to use them, chances are they're not necessary for you to use them. I hate to sound mean, but it's the truth.
        ,
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[U]        | |                     [/U]
[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
        |
        L.
#4
Quote by demonofthenight
There are three reasons to use extended chords (anything other than minor, major, diminished or augmented).

Firstly, because you've written your piece in free counterpoint and have several voices making odd intervals with one another. This is especially true in early jazz, where several instruments would play something completely different to another instrument, which creates a number of melodies working at once. Seeing as this is done most easily by writing each voice with a similar rhythm, you'll start to create chords by the piling of the voices.
Say, at one point in the song, a trombone is playing A, a bass sax C, a tenor sax E, a trumpet G and a soprano sax B, which makes Am9). These note piles will form chords, usually extended chord.

Or, you could use extended chords to better fit your melody. For instance, let's say the main melody (the one that stands out from each and every other voice) uses a lot of B's, but the underlying harmony (aka, the chord playing at that moment in the chord progression) is actually Am. In this instance, a composer may want to use Amadd9, just because an Amadd9 will work with the melody better.

Or, just because it sounds right. Personally, I don't agree with this method. Why use a complex tool if you can use the simpler, easier tool?

My advice to anyone "wondering" whether or not to use them is don't. If you don't know how to use them, chances are they're not necessary for you to use them. I hate to sound mean, but it's the truth.


I disagree.

There are loads of songs out there with simple melodies, but synths or orchestra playing complex chords, which add so much to the ambience and production.

And you make an error in ur train of thought.

First you say: "Personally I Don't agree with this method" Implying an opinion.

Then a few sentence later u say: I don't want to sound mean, but it's the truth, implying a fact.

This is a blatant thinking error.

How to use em is very subjective, because exactly this "out of the box" thinking is what evolved music to what there is out today.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Dec 13, 2009,
#5
Quote by xxdarrenxx
I disagree.

There are loads of songs out there with simple melodies, but synths or orchestra playing complex chords, which add so much to the ambience and production.

That's... nice, but what exactly do you disagree with?

Quote by xxdarrenxx
And you make an error in ur train of thought.

First you say: "Personally I Don't agree with this method" Implying an opinion.

Then a few sentence later u say: I don't want to sound mean, but it's the truth, implying a fact.

This is a blatant thinking error.
Not really, both points are in two separate paragraphs, meaning they're about two different subjects under the same topic that is extended chords.
Regardless, how does this relate to the thread?

Quote by xxdarrenxx
How to use em is very subjective, because exactly this "out of the box" thinking is what evolved music to what there is out today.
You can claim it's as subjective as you want, but in the end there's a way that works and there's a way that... doesn't. Unfortunately, there are some things in composition that are objective, like the need for a relevant harmony (chord progression) in a western song.

And until you suggest a different method, your subjectiveness is not out of the box thinking, it's self-perpetuating ignorance and blatant disregard for what has been proven to work by many generations of composers.
        ,
        |\
[U]        | |                     [/U]
[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
        |
        L.
#6
TS, watch these - suspensions are amongst the many things covered. If you just want that bit it's in part 4 but it's worth your while watching the whole series.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTUXKWnHH-g&feature=related
Actually called Mark!

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Last edited by steven seagull at Dec 13, 2009,
#7
Seems like demon is going out of his way to give bad advice!

Seagull, did you miss a link?

TS, you can build Add chords and sus chords using the other notes within the key.

For example, in the key of C you may be playing C - Dm - F - G
You could change your F chord to Fsus2 because the G note is available in the key of C.

Try playing Fadd9 and Gadd9 in that progression. You are just adding in the G and A (respectively). You have to experiment with different ideas to see what sounds right.
#8
Quote by branny1982
Seagull, did you miss a link?

Um...no?
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
People with a duck for their avatar always give good advice.

...it's a seagull

Quote by Dave_Mc
i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


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#9
Quote by demonofthenight
That's... nice, but what exactly do you disagree with?

Not really, both points are in two separate paragraphs, meaning they're about two different subjects under the same topic that is extended chords.
Regardless, how does this relate to the thread?

You can claim it's as subjective as you want, but in the end there's a way that works and there's a way that... doesn't. Unfortunately, there are some things in composition that are objective, like the need for a relevant harmony (chord progression) in a western song.

And until you suggest a different method, your subjectiveness is not out of the box thinking, it's self-perpetuating ignorance and blatant disregard for what has been proven to work by many generations of composers.


Well asked "why use the more complex tool if u can use the simple tool", and disregard that it could also function merely as a texture instead of purely using it as tool to interact between melody and harmony.

This something is not explained in music theory and is an aesthetic thing, which nonetheless does affect music.

You assume that everyone that writes music, must write it in the fashion of one who listens to music in the sense you imply.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Dec 13, 2009,
#10
Usually sus or add chords are used (in jazz at least) for the build-up and release of tension. Often jazz writers will prolong the resolution as long as possible, sometimes using sus and add chords.

The reason sus and add chords are so strong with resolution is because seconds and fourths are naturally dissonant harmonic intervals, which have the "gravitational" pull towards the chord tones.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
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#11
Quote by demonofthenight
Or, just because it sounds right. Personally, I don't agree with this method. Why use a complex tool if you can use the simpler, easier tool?


Because want that chord. No two chord qualities sound the same. You want a slightly different sound that one of those four main triads, then you choose a more complex chord that has the sound you want.
#12
I just wonder how many of these responses are going right over his head, and presume a fair degree of prior knowledge?

A couple of you gave an answer, which if he understands, may make me question why he posted the question in the first place, because with that level of knowledge he may have been able to get the answer himself in the first place. Then a couple of you took the complex answers to task and got philosophical (which makes me wonder how THAT benefits the author of this topic)

How many in here are answering the poster and how many are composing their answers in consideration of the posters relative background knowledge, versus just trying to come across looking smart?

The answers are right, but I cant help but wonder if the way we answer it and the level we take isn't tantamount to a shovelfull of dirt over the guys head for asking the question.

If I may try to help answer that question.

A sus chord is ambiguous because it removes the 3rd and makes it neither major or minor by replacing it with a 2nd or 4th. You could experiment with a sus 2 or 4 in place or over a Major or minor chord in that key and let your ear dictate which sound best for you as you play over them.

An add 9 is the 2nd note of your key raised an octave, so Aadd9 is an A with a B raised 1 octave higher than the 2nd note of that key. You could also try those as well. Guys like Pettrucci do this all the time.

Keep in mind some notes you are playing over these progressions will sound better than others - just use your ear and decide what ones and how many times they are used.
#13
Quote by Sean0913
I just wonder how many of these responses are going right over his head, and presume a fair degree of prior knowledge?

A couple of you gave an answer, which if he understands, may make me question why he posted the question in the first place, because with that level of knowledge he may have been able to get the answer himself in the first place. Then a couple of you took the complex answers to task and got philosophical (which makes me wonder how THAT benefits the author of this topic)

How many in here are answering the poster and how many are composing their answers in consideration of the posters relative background knowledge, versus just trying to come across looking smart?

The answers are right, but I cant help but wonder if the way we answer it and the level we take isn't tantamount to a shovelfull of dirt over the guys head for asking the question.

If I may try to help answer that question.



I replied, because I found it to elite of a statement.

Demon said if you don't know the mechanics of a chord, don't use it, while I think it helps finding out about music both in academic fashion, and "listening fashion".

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Who's Andy Timmons??
#14
Quote by xxdarrenxx
I replied, because I found it to elite of a statement.

Demon said if you don't know the mechanics of a chord, don't use it, while I think it helps finding out about music both in academic fashion, and "listening fashion".


Oh I agree 100 percent that it came across as "elitist"
#15
Quote by COBHC912
according to scale pattern, for example the some chords will be like Am /Bm/ C /D/Em/F dim in the key of G

my question is now how to can i add--- sus2 sus4 add9 chords to the progression?


The sus2 requires there be a major second added, so an A on the G, B on the A, but NOT a C on B, since that would be a minor second, and sus2 assumes a major second. So any of the chords where there is a major second above the chord's root can be made into a sus2 chord and stay in key. To make it a sus2 chord, you would get rid of the third, and add the second.

Add9 chords are very similar to the sus2. The difference is that they have both the second (the ninth and the second are the same note seperate by an octave) and the third. There will be two types of add9 chord that will be in the key, the add9 (major add9) and the madd9 (minor add9), which will depend on whether the third is major or minor, and not whether the ninth is major or minor.

Sus4 chords are very similar to sus2 chords as well. The only difference is that the sus4 uses the perfect fourth to replace the third, rather than the major second. So sus4 chords can be formed on all the scale degrees that have a perfect fourth above the root.

Try listing the sus2 add9 and sus4 chords in the key of G, and we'll tell you if you got it. Also, the vii° chord in G is actually F♯° not F°.
#16
Quote by Sean0913
I just wonder how many of these responses are going right over his head, and presume a fair degree of prior knowledge?

A couple of you gave an answer, which if he understands, may make me question why he posted the question in the first place, because with that level of knowledge he may have been able to get the answer himself in the first place. Then a couple of you took the complex answers to task and got philosophical (which makes me wonder how THAT benefits the author of this topic)

How many in here are answering the poster and how many are composing their answers in consideration of the posters relative background knowledge, versus just trying to come across looking smart?

The answers are right, but I cant help but wonder if the way we answer it and the level we take isn't tantamount to a shovelfull of dirt over the guys head for asking the question.

If I may try to help answer that question.

A sus chord is ambiguous because it removes the 3rd and makes it neither major or minor by replacing it with a 2nd or 4th. You could experiment with a sus 2 or 4 in place or over a Major or minor chord in that key and let your ear dictate which sound best for you as you play over them.

An add 9 is the 2nd note of your key raised an octave, so Aadd9 is an A with a B raised 1 octave higher than the 2nd note of that key. You could also try those as well. Guys like Pettrucci do this all the time.

Keep in mind some notes you are playing over these progressions will sound better than others - just use your ear and decide what ones and how many times they are used.


this kinda mature answer i was expecting,but some guys were fighting over each other.. actually i had came up with some sus2 and sus4 chords along with other normal chords. but i was thinking,is there any way to mix that, according to that rule maj min min maj maj min dim..
anyway i will focus on ur advices.thnx man
#17
Quote by isaac_bandits
The sus2 requires there be a major second added, so an A on the G, B on the A, but NOT a C on B, since that would be a minor second, and sus2 assumes a major second. So any of the chords where there is a major second above the chord's root can be made into a sus2 chord and stay in key. To make it a sus2 chord, you would get rid of the third, and add the second.

Add9 chords are very similar to the sus2. The difference is that they have both the second (the ninth and the second are the same note seperate by an octave) and the third. There will be two types of add9 chord that will be in the key, the add9 (major add9) and the madd9 (minor add9), which will depend on whether the third is major or minor, and not whether the ninth is major or minor.

Sus4 chords are very similar to sus2 chords as well. The only difference is that the sus4 uses the perfect fourth to replace the third, rather than the major second. So sus4 chords can be formed on all the scale degrees that have a perfect fourth above the root.

Try listing the sus2 add9 and sus4 chords in the key of G, and we'll tell you if you got it. Also, the vii° chord in G is actually F♯° not F°.


i have got the chords already. i needed some new melody for my songs. so is there any way you can suggest ,to mix these chords with normal chords(or just these chord progressions) to get some new melodies ?i have got some lyrics in my hand, but those old chords just giving me the same old sounds, i need a break.
Last edited by COBHC912 at Dec 13, 2009,
#18
Quote by COBHC912
i have got the chords already. i needed some new melody for my songs. so is there any way you can suggest ,to mix these chords with normal chords(or just these chord progressions) to get some new melodies ?i have got some lyrics in my hand, but those old chords just giving me the same old sounds, i need a break.


Well typically suspended chords are used to resolve to the major or minor chord built on that same scale degree. Like to play a Dsus4, and then a D, so that the 4 resolves down to the 3. They are also great when you want a chord with that root, but don't want the major or minor tonality. Suspended chords are great when you want an ambiguous tonality, as there are no intervals of thirds or sixths.

Add9 chords can act like sus2 chords or can be treated like regular triads, only with the added dissonance of the ninth.

There are so many possibilities of what you can do, so you'd be best to just play around.
#20
There used to be a guideline suggesting that a sus4 is used to resolve to the major chord of the same root so Dsus4 to D for example. Whereas a sus2 chord would be used to resolve to the minor triad so Asus2 Am for example.

Nowadays though you get either sus2 or sus4 resolving to either the major or minor chord and sometimes you get a sus2 and a sus4 on the same chord. Listen to the main opening theme Lenny Kravitz "Believe" song and you will hear the use of the some major chords swinging on back and forth from majorto sus4 to major to sus2 back to major. There are a number of songs that also use the Am with both the sus2 and sus4 Led Zep's "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You"and Radiohead's "Street Spirit (Fade Out)" both use this (if I'm remembering rightly off the top of my head).

Both those latter examples will also show how such chordal variation can create a melodic theme that can be isolated and repeated over other chords.

Another example that shows a more tension related function of a sus chord is in Bob Dylan's "Tangled Up In Blue". In this song his "pre-verse" is made up of an A major - Asus4 vamp. The Asus4 in this example is all about creating a tension which is released by resolving back to the A major then he goes back to the Asus4 for more tension and back again. This is a really cool ballad with a great chord structure that is worth a much fuller analysis. If you want I could write an analysis of the song - but only if you're a Dylan fan. Please don't ask me to do it if you don't know or like the song cause then it would probably just be lost on you anyway.

EDIT: Yeah ultimately this...
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