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#1
Hi. I have a Mesa DC-5. It used to have a Black Shadow, a neutral speaker. I liked it's sound recorded, it's distortion was very thick and heavy sounding. But for practicing with my band I didn't like it very much. It sounds too weak. The cleans also disappoint me. So I swapped it out for a Vintage 30.

The Vintage 30 sounds much better in person, and audible. But recorded, I found it made my tone more warbly and spiky in the upper mids. I want a huge chunky wall of sound, like a modern rock/metal tone, and I'm getting all in your face mids. On top of that, they're not FULL mids either. It sounds like my speaker is farting.

The only way to rectify this was to turn my mids down! On my Mesa, it has a 5 band EQ. On the Parametric, I had the treble about 9, mids 8, bass 1, presence 6.5. On the 5 band, I had the bass up, the 240hz about halfway, the middle knob around 20%, the 2200 all the way down, and the 6600 around 75%.


You see, I had to turn the mids on the 5 band only up a LITTLE bit, but I had to turn the upper-mids down all the way. It took out most of the spikyness in my tone, and left me with a smooth distortion. However, it still feels lacking!

I know the V30 is used in metal alot, but for me, it seems to only want to be giving me mediocre classic rock tones when I should be getting great tone that I want.


So how do I proceed in this situation? In a few weeks, I'll have a 1960A cab with G12T-75's in them. Will they give me the sound I want? How can I make the V30 sound better now?


Thanks


I'll try to get some recorded clips. I have a 57 and an e609 on the amp right now, but I need time alone to record it loud.
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Congrats dude. I kinda want a BJ too 'cause I like them so much. I'll check your clipz later.

#3
I'm not set on any particular position, just using my ears. I put headphones on to monitor the micing as i move it around.

I tend to start halfway, no curving or off-axis. Halfway is too dark and not enough treble. I move it closer to the center. I normally find my sweet spot closer to the center, where I have good high-end, but also enough bass definition for palm-muting.

I've been using 2 mics as of lately though. I put the e609 in the position described above. Then I get the 57 and place it about halfway. It gives me some more lower mids. I mix the mics together.
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Congrats dude. I kinda want a BJ too 'cause I like them so much. I'll check your clipz later.

#4
I'd just keep trying to find a really good spot before swapping out speakers. Closer to the dust cap usually makes your tone very trebly and bright, and towards the edge of the speaker is bassy with not a lot of treble. I like to put my SM57 on the edge of the dust cap (so the edge of the mic closest to the centre is just where the cone and cap meet), a few inches from the grill cloth.
I'm using a Laney cab with G12T-75's, they are great for rock. I have my TSL set with a lot of mids, I love midrange crunch, and the G12T's are perfect for that IMO.
#5
Although im not a wizz kid on this subject i had the same problem accept the problem with mine was the recording software i was using and not knowing how to set it up propperly.
I now use a line 6 GX studio, then record onto Riff works 4 and then tweak my sound using both audacity and cubase, i dont know what to suggest but if you were to try a new piece of software, or to mix 2 pieces of software to get that sound you want then i think that will help, sorry i couldnt be of any more help then that.
#6
For a v30 try an off axis 57... Don't bother with the sennheiser; that's the only way I can get a v30 to sound vaguely OK in a recording context.

Second if you do decide to switch don't switch to a 75! They're extremely scooped and have no subtlty or character, if anything it'll fart more... For what you want have a look at an eminence tonker or a wizard.. The former is chunkier and more "RAWK" the latter is brighter and helps a "sludgy" sound cut through the mix..


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#7
Quote by littlephil
I'd just keep trying to find a really good spot before swapping out speakers. Closer to the dust cap usually makes your tone very trebly and bright, and towards the edge of the speaker is bassy with not a lot of treble. I like to put my SM57 on the edge of the dust cap (so the edge of the mic closest to the centre is just where the cone and cap meet), a few inches from the grill cloth.
I'm using a Laney cab with G12T-75's, they are great for rock. I have my TSL set with a lot of mids, I love midrange crunch, and the G12T's are perfect for that IMO.



Not planning on swapping out again. Like I said, I need a speaker that performs well at band practice. (it's a combo amp).

I'm getting the 1960A for FREE from a friend, and it comes with the G12T's. So I'm kind of hoping they will sound better for my application. I do love mids, but I want smooth modern distortion, not marshall-esque sounding at all. Think recto sounding.

I will experiment more with mic-positioning. Should I mess with the EQ on the mixer too? Sometimes I find I can't get my palm-muting to "stick". I want it to be quick and chest-pounding, not buzzy and weak. Sometimes I mess with the EQ on the mixer to see if I can fix that. It works to some extent - but is it bad to do this?

Quote by power freak
For a v30 try an off axis 57... Don't bother with the sennheiser; that's the only way I can get a v30 to sound vaguely OK in a recording context.

Second if you do decide to switch don't switch to a 75! They're extremely scooped and have no subtlty or character, if anything it'll fart more... For what you want have a look at an eminence tonker or a wizard.. The former is chunkier and more "RAWK" the latter is brighter and helps a "sludgy" sound cut through the mix..




I will try Off-axis next time I record this week. I am skeptical because the concept seems strange to me. But i'll give it a shot. I am getting the cab with G12T's regardless, because i'm getting it free. Perhaps I will mic up a v30 with the 57 and the g12t with the e609 and mix.

What may be the problem too, is that the speaker is 60 watts and my amp is 50 watts tube. I drive my amp fairly hard, I like to get the breakup out. But I fear that maybe the speaker is having some speaker breakup too which takes out the tightness and makes my sound more chaotic and loose. Maybe having more speakers will resolve this.

Thanks for the tips, I guess all I can do now is just tweak, tweak, and do some more tweaking after. We'll see how it goes!
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Congrats dude. I kinda want a BJ too 'cause I like them so much. I'll check your clipz later.

Last edited by injected at Dec 14, 2009,
#8
I think the 75's will suit you better. Those speakers allow you to use lots of mids and keep your tone smooth and big sounding.

If your V30 is new, the problem with recording mosty likey is the stiffness and bright upper mids that come from a v30 that hasn't been broken in fully yet.
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#9
Quote by Van Noord
I think the 75's will suit you better. Those speakers allow you to use lots of mids and keep your tone smooth and big sounding.

If your V30 is new, the problem with recording mosty likey is the stiffness and bright upper mids that come from a v30 that hasn't been broken in fully yet.
+1
#10
Quote by Van Noord
I think the 75's will suit you better. Those speakers allow you to use lots of mids and keep your tone smooth and big sounding.

If your V30 is new, the problem with recording mosty likey is the stiffness and bright upper mids that come from a v30 that hasn't been broken in fully yet.


+2
#11
Quote by power freak
For a v30 try an off axis 57... Don't bother with the sennheiser; that's the only way I can get a v30 to sound vaguely OK in a recording context.


thats really weird all my clips are recorded with a v30 on axis and i am pretty satisfied with it i mean the sm57 on axis

also can you post pics and clips on how you are micing it? no one can help you if there aren't clips
#12
Have you thought about the Eminence redcoat series? If you're peeved with the V30, that gives you some other options.
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#13
Quote by Van Noord
If your V30 is new, the problem with recording mosty likey is the stiffness and bright upper mids that come from a v30 that hasn't been broken in fully yet.

+1

The things sounded HORRIBLE for almost a month when I got them... Glad that's over.
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#14
tell me about your recording set up. the problem could lie in signal chain or just user error, or even just a poor recording.
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#15
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#16
I think I should be able to get the tone I want with V30's or G12's. To me, getting eminences or Warehouse speakers would just be kind of strange. I already have 2 different flavors of premium speakers..


Quote by chea_man
tell me about your recording set up. the problem could lie in signal chain or just user error, or even just a poor recording.


SM57/e609 -> XLR in (behringer 802) -> stereo output red/white to 3.5mm Line In on sound card -> Audacity
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Congrats dude. I kinda want a BJ too 'cause I like them so much. I'll check your clipz later.

#17
maybe is just cause the speaker isn't broken in
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#18
Quote by injected
It used to have a Black Shadow, a neutral speaker. I liked it's sound recorded, it's distortion was very thick and heavy sounding. But for practicing with my band I didn't like it very much. It sounds too weak. The cleans also disappoint me. So I swapped it out for a Vintage 30. The Vintage 30 sounds much better in person, and audible.



Black Shadows are re-branded V30's!
Last edited by GrisKy at Dec 15, 2009,
#19
Going direct in to the sound card is never going to sound very good man. Using audacity doesn't help either.

Try downloading REAPER and messing around with it. Also, try some post EQ on your sound, it could make a massive difference.
#20
Quote by injected
SM57/e609 -> XLR in (behringer 802) -> stereo output red/white to 3.5mm Line In on sound card -> Audacity


I'm sorry to say this....but THIS is likely your problem. Hands down.
I've bought, sold, and traded more gear than I care to admit.
#21
Quote by GrisKy

Black Shadows are re-branded V30's!



I'm not so sure about that. V30s from mesa are 60 watts and the Black Shadows are 90 watts. I'm really liking the way my c-90 black shadow sounds recorded. I like it so much that I'm looking for some old mesa 4x12 cab so I can have those speakers.
#22
Quote by GrisKy

Black Shadows are re-branded V30's!



No... they're Celestion MC-90's.

Quote by enselmis
Going direct in to the sound card is never going to sound very good man. Using audacity doesn't help either.

Try downloading REAPER and messing around with it. Also, try some post EQ on your sound, it could make a massive difference.



Why is it bad? I'm going through a LINE IN port, with a line-level signal. That's the way to do it. There's a separate microphone port which I am NOT using. Noise and clarity isn't an issue, the mixer acts as a preamp, eliminating the need for an mbox or audiobuddy or whatever.
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Congrats dude. I kinda want a BJ too 'cause I like them so much. I'll check your clipz later.

Last edited by injected at Dec 15, 2009,
#23
Quote by injected
No... they're Celestion MC-90's.


not all of them.

"Black Shadow" was a blanket label made by Mesa to re-brand all of their speakers. Same thing they do to tubes. So sayeth Mesa themselves.
#24
Yeah, well it says MC-90 on the speaker under black shadow. So it was an MC-90.
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Congrats dude. I kinda want a BJ too 'cause I like them so much. I'll check your clipz later.

#26
Well you said it yourself; it's just a blanket label used for all their speakers, not just V30's, which they make special 70 watt versions of.

But whatever, lol
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Congrats dude. I kinda want a BJ too 'cause I like them so much. I'll check your clipz later.

#27
Quote by injected
No... they're Celestion MC-90's.


Why is it bad? I'm going through a LINE IN port, with a line-level signal. That's the way to do it. There's a separate microphone port which I am NOT using. Noise and clarity isn't an issue, the mixer acts as a preamp, eliminating the need for an mbox or audiobuddy or whatever.


You need a interface with decent recording software if you want quality recordings. Period. As far as the V30- it needs broken in. Why is your bass set on 1?
#28
Quote by injected
Well you said it yourself; it's just a blanket label used for all their speakers, not just V30's, which they make special 70 watt versions of.

But whatever, lol


true, except one thing, those mesa v30's are actually celestion v30's built to the same specs, with the same materials, and through the same process as older, made in UK cele v30's (which were also 70w... I don't have a specific date for the change, but I have to assume it's when they relocated their factories to China).

BW V30's are also known to have a little more in the low mids.

are you using that e906 for high gain tones? because it doesn't handle them well (they're great for cleans though). not really a big deal in your case since you're also sitting on a 57. are you confident in your micing techniques?

gotta agree with the guys who say you need a proper interface if you want quality recordings. your computer's sound card isn't made for hi-fi tracking, it's made for you to hear skulls cracking when you fire up Gears of War.

then again, there's a laundry list of gear that'd be a good move to make professional quality recordings, and unless you're prepared to make a considerable investment, at some point you have to draw a line for yourself and say "ok, this is what I got, time to make it happen." experiment. go guerrilla.
#29
i think the e609 sounds more open compared to the 57. its nice to use both. I like it for high gain too.

i dont think i need another interface. For just tracking guitars im fine. the mixer has mic preamps and brings everything up to line level. I just dump those into the line in port and it comes out alright. its just my guitar tone right now thats bugging me. Even when i monitor myself through the mixer instead of the computer it's the same sound..


In the future i'm gonna get some kind of firewire interface though, it makes tracking drums alot easier.
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Congrats dude. I kinda want a BJ too 'cause I like them so much. I'll check your clipz later.

#30
Quote by injected
i dont think i need another interface. For just tracking guitars im fine. the mixer has mic preamps and brings everything up to line level. I just dump those into the line in port and it comes out alright. its just my guitar tone right now thats bugging me. Even when i monitor myself through the mixer instead of the computer it's the same sound..


You would be surprised.

Considering that your signal is coming XLR in, going out as phono, and then going in at 3.5 mm to a sound card?

You have to admit, your signal path is terrible. Ideally, signal path should be as least complicated as possible. Also, I realize Behringer makes decent stuff...but I imagine that the preamps in the mixer are adding noise, and then the adapter change from phono to 3.5mm will introduce noise, as will most sound cards.

It would likely sound infinitely better going from SM57 -> Interface or even SM57 -> Mixer -> Interface (I would only suggest the mixer if it had amazing preamps....otherwise just...no)
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#31
well the mixers good enough to run straight into a PA so i think its fine to record.

I'm not going phono -3.5 or some crazy route JUST by using adapters... The mixer actually HAS stereo outputs that i'm using the proper cable for. Line in accepts stereo inputs. I can actually record 2 tracks at once.
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Congrats dude. I kinda want a BJ too 'cause I like them so much. I'll check your clipz later.

#32
wow dude if your gonna be so strong headed about it just admit it. its you. its your "good enough mixer" going into your "line in on a line level" soundcard

first off you are using godawfull preamps. which just killed a bit of your quality
2nd you are using a sound card as a converter, guess what you just killed it again
in recording the weakest chain will kill your sound. just get an interface so you can have a BETTER converter and a BETTER preamp


or keep on crying about it.


also

edit:
Quote by injected
No... they're Celestion MC-90's.


Why is it bad? I'm going through a LINE IN port, with a line-level signal. That's the way to do it. There's a separate microphone port which I am NOT using. Noise and clarity isn't an issue, the mixer acts as a preamp, eliminating the need for an mbox or audiobuddy or whatever.



if this was the case pro studios wouldn't be dropping 10k for a lynx converter or an apoggee symphony x system :\
Last edited by CatharsisStudio at Dec 15, 2009,
#33
the black shadow that was in my mark cab was a g12 85 (i think)
1. your speaker needs to be broken in
2. your interface is not suitable for decent recordings
3. your mic placement skills are likely not all that great
4. you run really low bass
5. fix these travesties and post back with the results
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#34
Isn't the "Line In" jack on sound cards the one that does NOT convert the signal/etc? I thought that was the idea. I heard that line in was ok, but microphone jacks were not.

I really do not think it's my setup that is causing the tone to be undesirable. I hear the same sound when I put my ear in front of my speaker. It leaves alot to be desired. The recordings are not that much different, the main characteristics of my tone is in my amp..

It's not like the mixer/line in jack is clipping my signal or significantly changing any frequencies..


Oh yeah, the V30 has about 40 hours on it. Maybe 6 of those are at really high volumes. I traded it used from a person.
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Congrats dude. I kinda want a BJ too 'cause I like them so much. I'll check your clipz later.

Last edited by injected at Dec 15, 2009,
#35
Definitely go off-axis with the SM57 a couple inches out from the center to see if that rectifies the problem, and don't be afraid to blend with the Sennheiser. They're great compliments form what I've heard
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#36
Quote by injected
Isn't the "Line In" jack on sound cards the one that does NOT convert the signal/etc? I thought that was the idea. I heard that line in was ok, but microphone jacks were not.




a converter converts a analog audio signal to a digital signal

you whole soundcard is one giant peice of shit converter

you are getting mic preamp mixed with converter

you getting the mic in (preamp)
line in (bypasses preamp)
#37
I don't know anything about recording yet.... so i would also check what these guys have to say too. I learn alot from reading on here.

I had a v30 cab for 2 years and now have a g12t-75 cab and i am much happier. I felt the v30's didn't cut through when playing with my boys. they felt kinda booming and spikey to my ears. I dunno just my experiences FWIW.
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#38
Quote by CatharsisStudio
a converter converts a analog audio signal to a digital signal

you whole soundcard is one giant peice of shit converter

you are getting mic preamp mixed with converter

you getting the mic in (preamp)
line in (bypasses preamp)


Ok, so it just bypasses a preamp then, but still converts it to digital.

Isn't that what a firewire interface does?? I go XLR in, and it sends it through a digital firewire cable into the computer...??
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Congrats dude. I kinda want a BJ too 'cause I like them so much. I'll check your clipz later.

#39
Quote by injected
Isn't the "Line In" jack on sound cards the one that does NOT convert the signal/etc? I thought that was the idea. I heard that line in was ok, but microphone jacks were not.


let's take a deep breath and think about this one for a second cowboy...

is your DAW analog?
...DIGITAL Audio Workstation... the answer is no.

are you burning analog data on a disc when you make CDs?

do you really believe that your signal isn't being converted???
#40
No I believe it, I mean i'm using a computer and all, just put 2 and 2 together..


But I dont understand how a program like Pro tools or something ISN'T digital...???
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Congrats dude. I kinda want a BJ too 'cause I like them so much. I'll check your clipz later.

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