#1
I read through the lessons here, but this still isn't clear to me.

I understand that I flat the 3rd and the 6th of the major scale. So if I play C Ionian, i flat the E and the A. But, if I'm playing A Aeolian, do I also flat the E and the A? Even though it will be the 1st and the 5th? Or are they still considered the 3rd and the 6th because A Aeolian is still C major (it is, isn't it?)?
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#2
A Aeolian is the Relative Minor of C Ionian (or Major) in order to turn C Ionian into C Harmonic Minor you'd need to flat the 3rd and the 6th. If you want to turn the A Aeolian (Minor) into a Harmonic Minor you'd need to raise the 7th a half step.
#3
What about the other modes, are there different sharps/flats for them? Is there a pattern or any consistency in what notes get a sharp/flat in diff. positions of the major scale?
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#4
Forget A "Aeolian" - it has nothing to do with this particular issue, in fact forget modes completely as they don't apply.

The harmonic minor scale is the natural minor scale with a raised 7th.
The natural minor scale is the major scale with a flattened 3rd, 6th and 7th.

So, to convert any natural minor scale to its harmonic minor equivalent raise the 7th
To convert any major scale to its harmonic minor equivalent flatten the 3rd and 6th.

Generally speaking though you usually refer to scale spellings in relation to the major scale.

That's all you need to know.
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Last edited by steven seagull at Dec 15, 2009,
#5
Quote by JHC_DOH
What about the other modes, are there different sharps/flats for them? Is there a pattern or any consistency in what notes get a sharp/flat in diff. positions of the major scale?
Harmonic minor is essentially an altered form of the natural minor scale - altered by raising the 7th degree of the minor scale to form a strong leading tone back to the tonic. I'm not sure of the benefit of trying to relate it to the modes of the Major scale - I'd just relate it to the natural minor scale.

You'll normally find its used in conjunction with the natural minor scale - a piece will normally be written primarily in natural minor, with the harmonic minor just used with dim or dominant V chords.
#6
Quote by DerAj2
A Aeolian is the Relative Minor of C Ionian (or Major) in order to turn C Ionian into C Harmonic Minor you'd need to flat the 3rd and the 6th. If you want to turn the A Aeolian (Minor) into a Harmonic Minor you'd need to raise the 7th a half step.



The later is the useful way to think about the scale -> a minor scale with one note adjusted to give you a major V chord so your V->i transitions sound more resolved.
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#7
I don't understand this. I think I'm in a little over my head.
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#8
Quote by JHC_DOH
I don't understand this. I think I'm in a little over my head.
Ok. Forget modes. Stick with Major and minor

Major = R 2 3 4 5 6 7 .... so C Maj = C D E F G A B, and you can play it anywhere on the neck you can find those notes

Natural Minor = R 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 .... so C min = C D Eb F G Ab Bb, and you can play it anywhere on the neck you can find those notes

Harmonic minor is the natural minor scale with a raised 7th degree - so instead of a b7 you have a major 7th

Harmonic Minor = R 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 .... so C hmin = C D Eb F G Ab B, and you can play it anywhere on the neck you can find those notes
#9
Quote by JHC_DOH
I don't understand this. I think I'm in a little over my head.



OK, here's an easy way to think about it: you're playing over some chord progression that ends

E7 Am

Which is a pretty standard resolution for a minor key song. It doesn't really matter what the previous chords are - just consider this resolution. Now, if you just played an Am scale over the whole thing, you'd be in pretty good shape. The scale has the following notes:

A B C D E F G

and the chords have the following notes:

E7: E G# B D
Am: A C E

All but one of those chord tones are represented in the scale. But there's one landmine - playing G over the E7 chord will sound like you're not following the chords because you're playing the minor 3rd and it's a major chord. The solution: replace the G with a G#, giving you a new scale:

A B C D E F G#

which happens to be the A harmonic minor scale. The result: landmine elminated, and you're good to go.
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#10
Quote by zhilla
Ok. Forget modes. Stick with Major and minor

Major = R 2 3 4 5 6 7 .... so C Maj = C D E F G A B, and you can play it anywhere on the neck you can find those notes

Natural Minor = R 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 .... so C min = C D Eb F G Ab Bb, and you can play it anywhere on the neck you can find those notes

Harmonic minor is the natural minor scale with a raised 7th degree - so instead of a b7 you have a major 7th

Harmonic Minor = R 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 .... so C hmin = C D Eb F G Ab B, and you can play it anywhere on the neck you can find those notes


ok, that's what I thought

The reason I mention modes, was because the modes all have the same notes in them as the Cmajor scale just starting in different spots. So really, I could play through all the modes of the Cmajor scale, and flat all of the E's and A's, and I will still be in C Harmonic Minor. Correct?

Is thinking of it in terms of modes just the wrong way to have it in my head?
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#11
Forget modes, they have absolutely nothing to do with this - you're getting confused because you're worrying about stuff that isn't relevant.

Modes aren't shapes or patterns, modes are when you use the notes of a major scale over a different tonic and that's nothing to do with this.
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#12
Quote by JHC_DOH
ok, that's what I thought

The reason I mention modes, was because the modes all have the same notes in them as the Cmajor scale just starting in different spots. So really, I could play through all the modes of the Cmajor scale, and flat all of the E's and A's, and I will still be in C Harmonic Minor. Correct?

Is thinking of it in terms of modes just the wrong way to have it in my head?
Not really - although thats a common misconception, including in a lot of self-teach material unfortunately. The modes of C Major use the same notes as C Major, but with different tonics - they don't start in different places, they resolve to different notes/chords.

C Maj contains the notes C D E F G A B - and you can play it anywhere on the neck that you find those notes. And you will resolve to C or C Maj.

D Dorian contains the notes D E F G A B C - and you can play it anywhere on the neck that you find those notes. And you will resolve to D or D min.

Which means you can play D Dorian anywhere on the neck that you can play C Major, using the same notes - but you will be using them for differnet functions, and you will be resolving to a different place.

The only time you'd consciously start on the tonic (ie C for C Maj, D for D Dorian) is if you were playing the scale straight up and down - which you're unlikely to do in a piece of music
#13
Quote by zhilla
Not really - although thats a common misconception, including in a lot of self-teach material unfortunately. The modes of C Major use the same notes as C Major, but with different tonics - they don't start in different places, they resolve to different notes/chords.

C Maj contains the notes C D E F G A B - and you can play it anywhere on the neck that you find those notes. And you will resolve to C or C Maj.

D Dorian contains the notes D E F G A B C - and you can play it anywhere on the neck that you find those notes. And you will resolve to D or D min.

Which means you can play D Dorian anywhere on the neck that you can play C Major, using the same notes - but you will be using them for differnet functions, and you will be resolving to a different place.

The only time you'd consciously start on the tonic (ie C for C Maj, D for D Dorian) is if you were playing the scale straight up and down - which you're unlikely to do in a piece of music



I think that cleared it up for me.

So if I'm playing in D Dorian, and resolve to C, I'm not really playing in D Dorian, I'm Playing in Cmajor, and calling it Dorian for no reason, correct?
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#14
Quote by JHC_DOH
I think that cleared it up for me.

So if I'm playing in D Dorian, and resolve to C, I'm not really playing in D Dorian, I'm Playing in Cmajor, and calling it Dorian for no reason, correct?
Yup you got it

You'll only be playing D Dorian if your backing implies that its D Dorian too - whether that backing is a modal chord progression or just a D drone. Normally playing those notes you will either be playing C Maj (if you're resolving to C) or A minor (if you're resolving to A)
#15
Nice!

* EDIT* And so, does that apply for everything? If I iplay in C Ionian, but resolve to E.... It's Phrygian, right?
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Last edited by JHC_DOH at Dec 15, 2009,
#16
Quote by JHC_DOH
Nice!

* EDIT* And so, does that apply for everything? If I iplay in C Ionian, but resolve to E.... It's Phrygian, right?
Yep - but you'll only be able to do that if the backing implies its E Phrygian too. Try to do that over a normal C Maj chord progression and it'll just sound like you're playing C Major with some really weird note choices and a crappy ending lol
#17
Thanks.
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