#1
A few music majors who play in the local orchestra are in a class with me and we were talking about music. None of them listen to or play anything besides 2-300 year old classical music (which I don't, nothing against classical music itself, I just can't get into it). They're all greatly talented technically and in terms of theory (at least related to old classical music), but when I asked any of them if they've ever written anything, or if they ever improvise they looked at me like I was completely crazy.

I just think it's a little strange that these guys are dedicating their college careers to playing other peoples music, no matter how complex or hard it is to play.
Last edited by drewfromutah at Dec 15, 2009,
#2
I used to hang out with Beethoven. He never took showers so it was kinda awkward hanging out with him out in the public.
#3
They are just tools (as in a physical tool used to do something) and they see themselves as that way. They provide service, not create.
I do have a friend who writes classical music though and her songs have been played by the Korean Nation Orchestra.
She is also in a metal band and really likes the relationship between metal and classical.

edit: I didn't really sum up.
Some see themselves as an instrument, some see themselves as writers, all are exposed to learning at a young age and might not be creative naturally or aspire to be.

The thing that's different is you can get good paying job doing 'covers'.
Been in Japan since August, no fucking money left!
Last edited by GaijinFoot at Dec 15, 2009,
#4
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#5
It's not that they can't improvise. It's the fact in their style of music it is not common. And if they want to admire the beauty of old compositions then so be it. Not everyone has to be a Jimi Hendrix some people like structure and composition.
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#6
Quote by Venice King
It's not that they can't improvise. It's the fact in their style of music it is not common. And if they want to admire the beauty of old compositions then so be it. Not everyone has to be a Jimi Hendrix some people like structure and composition.


Because I definitely implied both of those things.
#7
Yeah, I used to play in an orchestra, and there was a lot of that. However, there was one guy who did win an improv contest as well as a composition contest, both on viola. But that was extremely rare.
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#9
I know a couple, they are great, but I'm also VERY into it, but like you said, some of them cant improvise at all, yet I can...oh well.
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#11
I know a girl who can sing opera really well if that counts.

We recorded an absolutely bizzare duet with her singing opera and me toasting over a dancehall track mixed with some genric classical music. It was weird but it fit together really well.
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Last edited by IDread at Dec 15, 2009,
#12
Quote by drewfromutah
Because I definitely implied both of those things.

You did.
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#13
Quote by Zoot Allures
Then they're not musicians, just instrument players. I always think its a shame when you get people who are talented technically yet are uncreative and very limited.

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#14
Quote by Zoot Allures
Then they're not musicians, just instrument players. I always think its a shame when you get people who are talented technically yet are uncreative and very limited.

Ugggghhh.

How long have these people been in college, TS? It would be very odd for them to never take a composition OR improv course... Unless you meant they only never write/improv while in orchestra and, no, that kinda defeats the purpose. Colleges have jazz bands and chamber ensembles (especially the jazz one) for that kind of thing.

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#15
I tend to find most classical musicians I meet are arsey cunts.
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Last edited by notsojoeyb4eva at Dec 15, 2009,
#16
I think you're missing something here. Its not that they're not creative, although they may very well not be. I think there is a great deal of creativity and just as much individuality in playing classical music as there is in playing metal or rock or whatever. Classical musicians identify themselves as much as nonclassical musicians do, in their relationship to the piece and their identification with it. they are not there to be living studio tracks, they merely find that certain pieces offer them an avenue of expression that they may not believe they are capable of approaching otherwise. point in case, show me a single piece of non classical music that approaches the wide spectrum of emotions and complete totality of humanity that is encompassed in bach's chaconne, whether on the violin, guitar, viola, piano or whatever.
#17
Quote by SteveHouse
Ugggghhh.

How long have these people been in college, TS? It would be very odd for them to never take a composition OR improv course... Unless you meant they only never write/improv while in orchestra and, no, that kinda defeats the purpose. Colleges have jazz bands and chamber ensembles (especially the jazz one) for that kind of thing.



What? It's true. They are just instrument players in a similar fashion to a player piano. I thought being a musician involved creating music.


And it is being limited if they only listen to ONE genre of music, classical as TS said.
#18
Quote by GaijinFoot
They are just tools (as in a physical tool used to do something) and they see themselves as that way. They provide service, not create.
I do have a friend who writes classical music though and her songs have been played by the Korean Nation Orchestra.
She is also in a metal band and really likes the relationship between metal and classical.

edit: I didn't really sum up.
Some see themselves as an instrument, some see themselves as writers, all are exposed to learning at a young age and might not be creative naturally or aspire to be.

The thing that's different is you can get good paying job doing 'covers'.


Haha, you are dumb. Just because someone doesn't write their own music doesn't make them a "tool". There have been fantastic musicians who love music unconditionally who have never written anything themselves. You might not have been insulting these types of musicians but I felt you were. I write and I play classical. I find them both incredibly challenging at time. One doesn't need to be a pioneer of music, inventing new styles every 4 months, to be good, or to be considered a musician. No one musician is better than another just because one creates and one doesn't. Some of the best musicians I know couldn't improvise a 10 bar phrase for me, but I know they could play circles around me when it comes to reading classical music.
#19
Quote by Zoot Allures
What? It's true. They are just instrument players in a similar fashion to a player piano. I thought being a musician involved creating music.


And it is being limited if they only listen to ONE genre of music, classical as TS said.

1 - Being a songwriter or composer involves creating music. Are you trying to tell me some of the greatest instrumentalists weren't musicians because they didn't write their own stuff? (SHEdit: ^ Hivemind, damn.) Or are you just trolling?

2 - Eh, that one's pretty subjective I'd say. I doubt they actually listen to nothing but classical, and if they do, that's just where their musical tastes are right now. It's only closed-minded if they absolutely always refuse to listen to anything else, which I don't have the information to say is true.

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#20
Quote by SteveHouse
1 - Being a songwriter or composer involves creating music. Are you trying to tell me some of the greatest instrumentalists weren't musicians because they didn't write their own stuff? (SHEdit: ^ Hivemind, damn.) Or are you just trolling?

2 - Eh, that one's pretty subjective I'd say. I doubt they actually listen to nothing but classical, and if they do, that's just where their musical tastes are right now. It's only closed-minded if they absolutely always refuse to listen to anything else, which I don't have the information to say is true.



I wish more people thought like you.
#21
Quote by goldenslumbers
Haha, you are dumb. Just because someone doesn't write their own music doesn't make them a "tool". There have been fantastic musicians who love music unconditionally who have never written anything themselves. You might not have been insulting these types of musicians but I felt you were. I write and I play classical. I find them both incredibly challenging at time. One doesn't need to be a pioneer of music, inventing new styles every 4 months, to be good, or to be considered a musician. No one musician is better than another just because one creates and one doesn't. Some of the best musicians I know couldn't improvise a 10 bar phrase for me, but I know they could play circles around me when it comes to reading classical music.

Well, I did try to clear up what I said in the brackets.
I meant that to them it's just a way to pass on the sound they are meant to play to it's audience.
I know a few professional musicians who play in London theatre and they all say the same thing 'it's a job'.
4 hours practice a day and the soul starts to grow old, don't you think?
I'd like to glamorise it because people don't listen to classical enough but this is what I've been told as true. The exceptions are the minority.
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#22
Quote by SteveHouse
1 - Being a songwriter or composer involves creating music. Are you trying to tell me some of the greatest instrumentalists weren't musicians because they didn't write their own stuff? (SHEdit: ^ Hivemind, damn.) Or are you just trolling?

2 - Eh, that one's pretty subjective I'd say. I doubt they actually listen to nothing but classical, and if they do, that's just where their musical tastes are right now. It's only closed-minded if they absolutely always refuse to listen to anything else, which I don't have the information to say is true.


They're great instrumentalists yeah. They're instrument players but not musicians.

Improv is an important part of music anyway, i don't see how anyone can call themselves a musician if they can read scores well and all but they can't improv very well / don't ever want to and never write their own music.
#23
Quote by Zoot Allures
They're great instrumentalists yeah. They're instrument players but not musicians.

Improv is an important part of music anyway, i don't see how anyone can call themselves a musician if they can read scores well and all but they can't improv very well / don't ever want to and never write their own music.

A musician is someone who plays music.

If a magician is someone who makes their own magic tricks, what do you call someone who copies others?
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#24
SHEdit: ^ The Great Danton.

Zoot, you in fact do have a ridiculously narrow view of what it is to be a musician.

Well, I think that point's been made and there's no headway to be gained for either of us. Anybody bring snacks?

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Last edited by SteveHouse at Dec 15, 2009,
#25
Quote by SteveHouse
Zoot, you in fact do have a ridiculously narrow view of what it is to be a musician.

Well, I think that point's been made and there's no headway to be gained for either of us. Anybody bring snacks?

Can you imagine how hard it'd be to divide bands using his logic?
Kirk Hamett would never be considered a musician..........


if he were a musician, that is.
Been in Japan since August, no fucking money left!
#26
Good points so far. Keep in mind, I never criticized these kids. We actually get along great. I just don't understand how you can dedicate this amount of time and effort into playing pieces that have been played billions of times, the same way, for 300 years. I have noticed that the ones I've met aren't creative at all musically. I'm just trying to figure out why they're doing what they're doing.

With all their technical talent and knowledge of complex theory, why don't they write their own symphonies?

Why do classic rock cover bands get LOLed at, but the orchestra playing Bach down the street is a formal event and the folks playing the instruments are applauded?
#27
Quote by drewfromutah

Why do classic rock cover bands get LOLed at, but the orchestra playing Bach down the street is a formal event and the folks playing the instruments are applauded?

Ooh, this can go into a culture debate. I'm in.

Well for one, the classic rock is kinda recorded. Nobody could record Bach's organ fugues. There's the simple difference: We have no idea what the original (in some opinions, genius) music sounded like, only modern interpretations that come close--if they want to. We know what Led Zep (in some opinions, genius) intended to sound like. That's good enough for most people.

Culture debate: Classical music is highbrow, cultured shit, and classic rock is your parents' "devil music." That's a factor too.

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