#1
Hey all, here's a question I have for the speaker gurus

I am looking into picking up a 4x12 cabinet in the near future. Chances are w/my budget, I'll probably go with a used 1960A since they go pretty cheap, and in my experience, sound good.

However, no matter what I end up with, I've found a particular liking to Warehouse Guitar speakers, and will probably be swapping speakers out, especially if they are G12T-75's (and selling them accordingly).

Right now, I am using a 2x12 cab w/their Vintage 30 clone, and a higher wattage version of their G12H30 clone. I love this combo, and actually prefer their V30 clone over the real deal (less intense mid spike, but still plenty of upper mid presence).

But with a 4x12 cab, I am debating whether to continue using this combo, or to try using a V30/G12-65 clone combo in an X pattern. Has anyone here used the Celestion G12-65? How does it sound? I've heard they're amazing speakers, so I'm curious.

Thanks for any input!
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#2
just a thought, before you buy the g12-65s (if you end up going that route)...

pick up the 1960 cab that, like you said, will probably have 75's. pull a couple of them and replace them with the v30 clones you like in an x-pattern (it's a fairly popular setup). you might not have to spend any extra $$$ to get a great tone.

as for the 65...
it could bet be defined by is tight low end and aggressive crunch. they're a little harsh to my ears, but if you play a lot of high gain heavy rythms with plenty of staccato, they're a pretty tough speaker to beat.
#3
Yeah, I've heard of that combo too. I should also probably clarify that I wouldn't be buying real G12-65's. WGS makes a clone of those too.

I guess I'm just curious if the G12T-75 is descended from the G12-65, or if the G12-65 is more voiced like a G12H30 or Greenback?
- Gibson Flying V 120 #1 (White)
- Gibson Flying V 120 #2 (Cherry)
- Gibson SG Standard ('61 style)
- Jackson DK2M

- ENGL Fireball 60
- Avatar 4x12

- Many pedals, plus other stuff
#4
Quote by GrisKy
they're a little harsh to my ears, but if you play a lot of high gain heavy rythms with plenty of staccato, they're a pretty tough speaker to beat.

We clearly have completely opposing views about this speaker... To me they are the least harsh, smoothest, roundest speakers celestion makes. The top end is severely rolled off, making them very dark which doesn't work with higher gain amps (more than a boosted JCM800 or so.) The low end isn't particularly tight either, the best way I can think to describe it is "zippy", you know the sound when you do up a tight zip? The low end has that quality to it. It's good for single note blues lead playing but distorted chords get a little fuzzy.


And as always I would advise against combining speaker types.


For sale: Early 1985 Ibanez AH10 (Allan Holdsworth signature model) PM for details
#5
I disagree about combining speakers, combining the right speakers cans ound very good.
#6
Quote by GrisKy
just a thought, before you buy the g12-65s (if you end up going that route)...

pick up the 1960 cab that, like you said, will probably have 75's. pull a couple of them and replace them with the v30 clones you like in an x-pattern (it's a fairly popular setup). you might not have to spend any extra $$$ to get a great tone.



I have this exact setup. The V30s added so much fullness to the cab.
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#7
Quote by power freak
We clearly have completely opposing views about this speaker... To me they are the least harsh, smoothest, roundest speakers celestion makes. The top end is severely rolled off, making them very dark which doesn't work with higher gain amps (more than a boosted JCM800 or so.) The low end isn't particularly tight either, the best way I can think to describe it is "zippy", you know the sound when you do up a tight zip? The low end has that quality to it. It's good for single note blues lead playing but distorted chords get a little fuzzy.


And as always I would advise against combining speaker types.




Are you sure we're talking about the same speaker here? I mentioned a couple different ones in my earlier post, but where you're quoting me, I'm talking about the g12-65.

If we are talking about the same one, I agree that there's a highend roll off, but the presence spike is there in force... but hey, everyone's ear is different.

Celestion makes the laim that this is a great speaker to fill up a 4x12 with... I respectfully disagree (not entirely, but I think it has better uses...). I would say it's excellent as an x-pattern partner with something like a cl80, but that really depends on your uses. For rythm alone, I still think it's great on it's own.

TS, IMO, the g12-65 is quite similar to a greenback with two exceptions: 1. the 65 has tighter bass response, and 2. the greenbacks have more in the upper highs.

PF, I'm having a tough time seeing where you're coming from regarding mixing speakers. does it have to do with practicality? as in, it's more difficult to get a true straight-out-of-the-cab tone mic'd? this is true... it requires a bit more gear and some patience, but I believe it's well worth the headache to get some really great rich tones and maintained tightness and low end control.
Last edited by GrisKy at Dec 16, 2009,
#8
Quote by GrisKy
1.) Are you sure we're talking about the same speaker here? I mentioned a couple different ones in my earlier post, but where you're quoting me, I'm talking about the g12-65.

If we are talking about the same one, I agree that there's a highend roll off, but the presence spike is there in force... but hey, everyone's ear is different.


2.) PF, I'm having a tough time seeing where you're coming from regarding mixing speakers. does it have to do with practicality? as in, it's more difficult to get a true straight-out-of-the-cab tone mic'd? this is true... it requires a bit more gear and some patience, but I believe it's well worth the headache to get some really great rich tones and maintained tightness and low end control.

1.) Yes; I'm talking about the 1265... I definitely don't get a presence spike from mine. If anything they could do with more presence for most applications.


2.) The problem with mixing speakers is it's impossible to predict how a combination will sound. By going for the same type of speaker you know the 2 speakers won't fight in the mid-range... I've tried many different combinations and in some 2x12s the greenback and v30 sound is brilliant, but then in an ever so slightly different cab (I'm talking 1mm diff in baffle difference) they fight in the mid range and sound like a great big mess... As a result unless you can afford to go through 4 or 5 speakers to find a pair that works in your cab I suggest sticking to a "straight" speaker combination.


For sale: Early 1985 Ibanez AH10 (Allan Holdsworth signature model) PM for details
#9
(1) Hmmm... are you using an oversized cab?

(2) well, that's kinda' like saying "don't try carrots because you might not like them. just stick to peas." I'm not a fan of throwing money around/away, but there are ways of hearing products without buying them, or by using return policies to your advantage.
#10
From a technical point of view there are two important aspects to using a mix of speakers in a single cab. The first is that the air in the cab changes the sound of the speaker and each speaker needs a different volume of air behind it to load it properly. Engineers calculate the Q factor when designing speakers Q of 0,7 gives the flattest bass response,0.5 the best transients but weak bass, Q of 1.1 gives the best efficiency and power handling at the expense of low bass anything above 1.1 will give a bass hump but with less low bass. Having all your speakers in the same box will throw some of this out as well as having the speakers interfere with each others behaviour. I'd always have an airtight divider inside the cab with the speakers in pairs.

The other effect is that all speakers have a fairly uneven frequency response with lots of little resonances and it is this which give them their character as you run up and down the neck. Mixing them will mainly iron out these resonances where the peaks don't coincide and create a few super resonances where they do. This will change the sound character in unpredictable ways probably giving a smoother sound but well, unpredictable. The only way of knowing is to try it.

It is your money but why not buy a speaker you like rather than change it?
#11
^ Agreed, except regarding the unpredictability of frequency responses.

The data sheets of the speakers in question, coupled with a versed understanding of your amp can provide, if not a calculated answer, a predictable frequency response.

It's important to keep in mind that every piece in the chain plays a role, from your guitar to your pickup to your fx to your amp to your speakers to your cab and all the little things inbetween. To say "X speaker" gives you more highend, for example, is (1) relative to other speakers irregardless of your other gear, and (2) not enough to go on in RL, where you have to take your other gear into consideration. So, "X speaker" delivers more upper highs, but you're using a dense guitar and a thunderclap amp and enough buffers to choke a horse... that speaker's highs are not going to be as big of an impact for you.
#12
Quote by GrisKy
(1) Hmmm... are you using an oversized cab?

No, it's in a marshall DSL combo that I'm using as a cabinet, I'd hardly call it oversized... It's openback which could explain the difference in top end I suppose.


Quote by GrisKy
The data sheets of the speakers in question, coupled with a versed understanding of your amp can provide, if not a calculated answer, a predictable frequency response.

I agree in a 1 speaker scenario you can have a pretty good understanding of what's going on; but as soon as you take 2 different speakers in 1 box it is not that simple... You can't say that a certain combination will work in every cab (and by "working" I mean without clashing frequency responses.) And unless you are rainman you won't be able to "predict"whether it will work without at least a lengthy calculation, more realistically a computer simulation.

but as always YMMV etc. etc.


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#13
Quote by power freak
No, it's in a marshall DSL combo that I'm using as a cabinet, I'd hardly call it oversized... It's openback which could explain the difference in top end I suppose.

I agree in a 1 speaker scenario you can have a pretty good understanding of what's going on; but as soon as you take 2 different speakers in 1 box it is not that simple... You can't say that a certain combination will work in every cab (and by "working" I mean without clashing frequency responses.) And unless you are rainman you won't be able to "predict"whether it will work without at least a lengthy calculation, more realistically a computer simulation.

but as always YMMV etc. etc.



that's strange... I would expect you to have more highs. could be that I had used them in a highly directional closed back slant cab and the upper speakers were almost aimed at my head...?

I agree fully that cab selection (and other stuff) plays a huge role. I tried to dip into that earlier, though I'm tip-toeing around it because I don't want this to turn into a "50% of your tone comes from amp, 25% comes from fart noises" thread.

realistically though, we're dealing with guitar speakers... they're all going to be mid-range heavy. as such, there's certainly going to be overlap, and that says nothing towards specimin-to-specimin differences of which some makers are particularly suseptable. I wasn't trying to say earlier that you can glance at a couple charts and peg the outcome perfectly, I'm saying you can ballpark it fairly well, and just like the hypothetical amp I mentioned earlier, same thing applies to cabs and every other part of the chain.

besides having different experiences with the 65's, I think we're just debating semantics

i needz me a beer or ten
#14
Quote by GrisKy
A.) that's strange... I would expect you to have more highs. could be that I had used them in a highly directional closed back slant cab and the upper speakers were almost aimed at my head...?

2.) I agree fully that cab selection (and other stuff) plays a huge role. I tried to dip into that earlier, though I'm tip-toeing around it because I don't want this to turn into a "50% of your tone comes from amp, 25% comes from fart noises" thread.

iii) besides having different experiences with the 65's, I think we're just debating semantics

$) i needz me a beer or ten

A.) You might have had some beaming going on? I've never tried a 65 in a closed back though.

2.) Those threads are a pain....

iii) True... Tbh maybe it's the "mid range fighting" that people like in a mixed speaker cab, tastes are tastes afterall...

$.) Best suggestion of the thread so far.


For sale: Early 1985 Ibanez AH10 (Allan Holdsworth signature model) PM for details
#15
Quote by GrisKy
^ Agreed, except regarding the unpredictability of frequency responses.

The data sheets of the speakers in question, coupled with a versed understanding of your amp can provide, if not a calculated answer, a predictable frequency response.

It's important to keep in mind that every piece in the chain plays a role, from your guitar to your pickup to your fx to your amp to your speakers to your cab and all the little things inbetween. To say "X speaker" gives you more highend, for example, is (1) relative to other speakers irregardless of your other gear, and (2) not enough to go on in RL, where you have to take your other gear into consideration. So, "X speaker" delivers more upper highs, but you're using a dense guitar and a thunderclap amp and enough buffers to choke a horse... that speaker's highs are not going to be as big of an impact for you.


This is absolutely right but I was not thinking of the broad responses given on the manufacturers charts but the much narrower resonances that you find when you plot the response yourself. Frequency charts give you a good indication of what something is going to sound like but I know from experience that quite insignificant frequency peaks can make a real difference to the sound if for example they hit on a second harmonic of a note you play.

If the cab is open back then it does not significantly load or damp the speakers and you can safely mix them though you will still have the effect of a smoother frequency response and a sweeter sound than you expect. At least that has been my experience.
#16
To be honest, I don't think I'd get a 1960 if I was just going to replace half or all the speakers. They're decent for the price you can pick them up used, but if you plan on swapping speakers, I'd just go with something a little more expensive on the used market, like a Mesa 4x12

It will sound 100x better stock, is built A LOT better, and has good speakers right out of the box.
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#17
Well, I must bring this thread back with one more question!

I've found the debating in this thread about speaker mixing interesting, but let's just leave it at that I like to mix speakers, and would like to continue doing so.

I wish to pursue the X pattern idea. The WGS Veteran 30 is definitely one of the speakers I want to use. I'm still trying to decide between their G12-65 clone, or their 50-watt G12H clone I have in my 2x12. The only thing having me hesitate on trying the 65, is that Celestion calls the G12-65 a forerunner to the G12T-75, which I've discovered I don't like at all with my amp. Too much mid scoop, and harsh highs IMO. Does the 65 have any of these characteristics? or is it more like a "greenback on steroids" tone, as GriskY said?
- Gibson Flying V 120 #1 (White)
- Gibson Flying V 120 #2 (Cherry)
- Gibson SG Standard ('61 style)
- Jackson DK2M

- ENGL Fireball 60
- Avatar 4x12

- Many pedals, plus other stuff
Last edited by FlightofIcarus at Dec 22, 2009,