#1
I know a little theory, nashville numbers, intervals, chord construction etc..., but I always see things introduced using the major chords and scales. I know how to create the major scale, and that its WWHWWWH, can anyone tell me how they create the minor scale. Is there a way like WWHWWWH to create every notes minor scale, and what note does it start on, if your creating a g-minor scale will it start on the g-note, i.e. 3rd fret of the low e. And with chord progression with the major scale, the 2 and 3 notes are minors and the 7 is diminished, is there a rule like that for the minor scale?
Last edited by AsktheMilkman! at Dec 17, 2009,
#2
Quote by AsktheMilkman!
I know a little theory, nashville numbers, intervals, chord construction etc..., but I always see things introduced using the major chords and scales. I know how to create the major scale, and that its WWHWWWH, can anyone tell me how they create the minor scale. Is there a way like WWHWWWH to create every notes minor scale, and what note does it start on, if your creating a g-minor scale will it start on the g-note, i.e. 3rd fret of the low e. And with chord progression with the major scale, the 2 and 3 notes are minors and the 7 is diminished, is there a rule like that for the minor scale?


Minor Scale : [Aoelian Mode] WHWWHWW

Maj Chord Progression : M-m-m-M-M-m-dim
Min Chord Progression : m-dim/aug-M-m-m-M-M
M= major
m= minor
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#4
Check out ZeGuitarist articles, I learned everything from him...
Quote by theogonia777
and then there's free jazz, which isn't even for musicians.

Quote by Born A Fool
As my old guitar teacher once said: Metal really comes from classical music. The only difference is pinch harmonics, double bass, and lyrics about killing goats.
#5
Quote by Dream Floyd
Minor Scale : [Aoelian Mode] WHWWHWW

Maj Chord Progression : M-m-m-M-M-m-dim
Min Chord Progression : m-dim/aug-M-m-m-M-M
M= major
m= minor


The ii° of a minor progression, is diminisehd. A II+ does not fit diatonically into a minor key.
Last edited by isaac_bandits at Dec 17, 2009,
#6
Quote by AsktheMilkman!
I know a little theory, nashville numbers, intervals, chord construction etc..., but I always see things introduced using the major chords and scales. I know how to create the major scale, and that its WWHWWWH, can anyone tell me how they create the minor scale. Is there a way like WWHWWWH to create every notes minor scale, and what note does it start on, if your creating a g-minor scale will it start on the g-note, i.e. 3rd fret of the low e. And with chord progression with the major scale, the 2 and 3 notes are minors and the 7 is diminished, is there a rule like that for the minor scale?


Your half steps are between 2-3 and 5-6 everything else is whole steps.

Write the alphabet and solve left to right making sure the half steps are 2-3 and 5-6

This is how I teach my Academy Students
#7
Quote by Sean0913
Your half steps are between 2-3 and 5-6 everything else is whole steps.

Write the alphabet and solve left to right making sure the half steps are 2-3 and 5-6

This is how I teach my Academy Students


But that's recursive which is always equally or less efficient than the general form. You could just learn 1, 2, ♭3, 4, 5, ♭6, ♭7 like the rest of the world, which is the simpler general form.
#8
Quote by Sean0913
Your half steps are between 2-3 and 5-6 everything else is whole steps.

Write the alphabet and solve left to right making sure the half steps are 2-3 and 5-6

This is how I teach my Academy Students



I learned it this way, and it's very understandable and easy for me.
#9
Do you have one concrete example to show me how its recursive and, how the simpler general form is better? I just answered the guys question in 2 sentences. Look at the other examples. I can have all of my students writing minor keys in 20 minutes, after having showed up to the lesson. Its 3 fast steps, two of which theyve known how to do since they were 5. So, one new step. One secret of my Academy, that makes it work so efficiently and allows the user to move progressively, is build upon previously established knowledge or from common ground.

Average time to write the scale - 10 seconds. Average time to spell it - about 14

That's in one lesson, and months and years later they can do the exact same thing, and yes I teach that it is a Major scale with b3 b6 b7, so the difference is they understand where it comes from but they need never write a major scale.

Modally this works too because now they either write a major or minor and they have the remaining modal formula which adds one second to the above times. Show me a faster way?

How is that recursive? How is that less efficient?

The other conflict I have with your way, is how does the user correctly establish which to choose from enharmonics?

Take any student here not versed in theory using your tried and true example, and have him correctly formulate a D# major Scale, AND a Gb minor Scale

Let the games begin! Ive already tipped how I do it differently from the tried and true ways in my Academy, and I have tons of students completely self-sufficent at being able to write and spell any major minor and modal key, in seconds.

Ive already hinted that your ease of learning the material is not representative of the median learner, so I discount any "ease" or "simplicity" that you presume upon it, just like I would for Michael Jordan to claim its easy to dunk and skywalk.


Cant wait!
Last edited by Sean0913 at Dec 17, 2009,
#10
Quote by Sean0913
Do you have one concrete example to show me how its recursive and, how the simpler general form is better?


Recursive means that each subsequent thing is determined by looking at the previous thing. If you have them remember its a half tone between the fifth and sixth degrees, they have to find that fifth to be able to find the sixth. In order to find the fifth they have to find the fourth...

It is simpler to just learn its a minor sixth, and go from the root straight to the sixth, rather than figuring out all the previous intervals first.

Quote by Sean0913
One secret of my Academy, that makes it work so efficiently and allows the user to move progressively, is build upon previously established knowledge or from common ground.


One poorly kept secret that would be.

Quote by Sean0913

That's in one lesson, and months and years later they can do the exact same thing, and yes I teach that it is a Major scale with b3 b6 b7, so the difference is they understand where it comes from but they need never write a major scale.


You don't need to write a major scale to write a minor scale. Just write the flattened intervals right away.

Quote by Sean0913
Modally this works too because now they either write a major or minor and they have the remaining modal formula which adds one second to the above times. Show me a faster way?


Why should it add one second? Even using your way, you could just say lydian has half steps between ♯ - 5 and 7 - 1....

If your just writing the scale, learning the recursive WWHWWWH type of pattern is fine (or just remembering where the half steps are, which really isn't any different). Using 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 will be equally fast too.

However, if you just want to find one note when given the tonic, the general formula is more efficient.

Quote by Sean0913
How is that recursive? How is that less efficient?


It is recursive because it requires knowledge of the previous terms, to determine any term, rather than just which term it is (which you would need anyway), and what the tonic is (which you would need anyways).

It is less effecient (in some circumstances it is equally efficient) because it is recursive, which requires more steps then general.

Quote by Sean0913
The other conflict I have with your way, is how does the user correctly establish which to choose from enharmonics?


Well the letters indicate that. A ♭7 and ♯6 above an interval will be enharmonically spelt differently, and it is easy to find, because a sixth (of any quality) above a given note will always have a specific letter because its a sixth. The seventh will have the enharmonic note because it is a seventh.

Quote by Sean0913
Take any student here not versed in theory using your tried and true example, and have him correctly formulate a D# major Scale, AND a Gb minor Scale


Well if he's not versed in theory he wouldn't understand half steps and whole steps any more than he'd understand scale degrees, so neither of our methods would work...

Quote by Sean0913
Let the games begin! Ive already tipped how I do it differently from the tried and true ways in my Academy, and I have tons of students completely self-sufficent at being able to write and spell any major minor and modal key, in seconds.


Just based on what I've seen you post elsewhere, you don't have a complete grasp on what makes something modal, so you wouldn't be able to teach them well. But that's a different discussion, so lets not hi-jack this thread.
#11
Hey Isaac,

Can we agree not to comment on one another's posts from here on out? It makes for a rather unpleasant experience, that benefits no one. How's that sound to you? Call it a truce.

We are different, and that's fine and its clear we don't mesh. So for the sake of all future threads here, can we just agree not to post comments or responses to one another's post?

Thanks.
#12
Quote by AsktheMilkman!
I know a little theory, nashville numbers, intervals, chord construction etc..., but I always see things introduced using the major chords and scales. I know how to create the major scale, and that its WWHWWWH, can anyone tell me how they create the minor scale. Is there a way like WWHWWWH to create every notes minor scale, and what note does it start on, if your creating a g-minor scale will it start on the g-note, i.e. 3rd fret of the low e. And with chord progression with the major scale, the 2 and 3 notes are minors and the 7 is diminished, is there a rule like that for the minor scale?


Everything is based on the major scale. The minor scale is the major scale played from the 6th note up one octave. Every major scale has a related minor scale starting from the 6th note. From the 6th it's 2 frets to the 7th, 1 fret to the 8th. so G minor is the relative minor of Bb Major (go up 3 frets from G to Bb, that's your major scale)

1. create the major scale
2 go up to the 6th note
3 play from this note up one octave

Take the white keys of a piano. the key of C major. Now, go to the A and play the white keys from A to A, That's A minor, the relative minor of C Major.


How to build the chords of the major scale:

From each note of the scale, skip every other note

C major

C D E F G A B C

The I chord is C, skip every other note
C E G B

The II chord is D, skip every other note
D F A C

The V chord is G, skip ever other note
G B D F

etc


So, Gminor is the relative minor (6th note of the major scale)
go up 3 frets to Bb major

Build the Bb major scale, go up to the 6th note (G) and play from that up an octave , that's your G natural minor scale, [also known as the aolean or VI mode]

Build your chords the same way, go to each note of the G minor scale, skip every other note.

G minor, the notes
G A Bb C D Eb F G

Building chords from G minor, go to each note of the scale, skip every other note

I G Bb D F
II A C Eb G
III Bb D F A
IV C Eb G Bb
V D F A C

etc
.

Yes there's a similar rule for the chord progression in a minor key. I can't do it off the top of my head, but if you build your chords this way, it's the same thing.
#13
Quote by isaac_bandits
But that's recursive which is always equally or less efficient than the general form. You could just learn 1, 2, ♭3, 4, 5, ♭6, ♭7 like the rest of the world, which is the simpler general form.

I have to disagree with you there.

Imagine playing a piece in the key of D. You could think about how each note relates to the tonic (eg. seeing G A B and thinking p4 p5 M6) but it is much more efficient to remember where each finger goes (so remember to play F#s and C#s) then just thinking either "3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th" or "F , G, A, B" and playing "F# G A B".

The reason remebering where the semitones go is useful is because it allows you to work out which frets to play/ where exactly each fingers go(I use it on violin mostly). I learn it in conjunction with movable solfa, so I remembered that there is a semitone between Mi and Fa, and Ti and Do.
Last edited by 12345abcd3 at Dec 22, 2009,
#14
Quote by 12345abcd3
I have to disagree with you there.

Imagine playing a piece in the key of D. You could think about how each note relates to the tonic (eg. seeing G A B and thinking p4 p5 M6) but it is much more efficient to remember where each finger goes (so remember to play F#s and C#s) then just thinking either "3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th" or "F , G, A, B" and playing "F# G A B".

The reason remebering where the semitones go is useful is because it allows you to work out which frets to play/ where exactly each fingers go(I use it on violin mostly). I learn it in conjunction with movable solfa, so I remembered that there is a semitone between Ra and Mi, and Ti and Do.
You can do that with intervals just as easily if not easier than using whole and half steps
#15
Quote by 12345abcd3
so I remembered that there is a semitone between Ra and Mi, and Ti and Do.


i thought it was a whole tone between Ra and Mi
Quote by jemjabella42
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#16
Quote by 12345abcd3
I learn it in conjunction with movable solfa, so I remembered that there is a semitone between Ra and Mi, and Ti and Do.
Wrong, the semitones are located between Mi and Fa, and Ti and Do. At least in the natural C Major scale (all white keys on the piano).
#17
Quote by Sean0913
Hey Isaac,

Can we agree not to comment on one another's posts from here on out? It makes for a rather unpleasant experience, that benefits no one. How's that sound to you? Call it a truce.

We are different, and that's fine and its clear we don't mesh. So for the sake of all future threads here, can we just agree not to post comments or responses to one another's post?

Thanks.


If he's pointing out wrong information in you're posts which could mislead the TS then I don't see why he shouldn't.
#18
Quote by flea's trumpet
i thought it was a whole tone between Ra and Mi


I thought Ra was a ♭2, while Mi was a ♮3, which would make them an augmented second apart.
#19
^haha, no I don't think so.

They're a major 2nd apart.
Quote by jemjabella42
People look too much into body language. Sometimes I don't make eye contact with people because they are ugly.
#20
Sorry, the semitone is between Mi and Fa.

Quote by zhilla
You can do that with intervals just as easily if not easier than using whole and half steps

But the point is that if you have already placed your fingers in the correct positions (which can be done by remembering where the semitones are or just by knowing the notes of the scale) then instead of having to think of the specific interval (m3, p4 etc.) you can just think of the general interval (3rd, 4th) or just the note (and not the accidental).

Already having your fingers in position eliminates the need to think about the specific interval, you can just play the general interval. Or you don't need to think about the key signature all the time.

For example, if the key sig has 2 sharps then if I see an F written then all I need to think is "play an F" and because my finger is in position to play an F# I will play an F#. However, I will be aware that I'm playing an F# but to actually play it all I need to think is F. Or if you use intervals all you have to think of is 3rd.

My point basically is that relating everything to the tonic is time consuming, whereas having your fingers already placed or already knowing where to go in that key is quicker, and remembering where the semitones in a scale are is a very useful way to know where to place your fingers (especially on a fretless instrument like the violin, but is also applies to guitar).
#21
Quote by 12345abcd3

For example, if the key sig has 2 sharps then if I see an F written then all I need to think is "play an F" and because my finger is in position to play an F# I will play an F#. However, I will be aware that I'm playing an F# but to actually play it all I need to think is F. Or if you use intervals all you have to think of is 3rd.

My point basically is that relating everything to the tonic is time consuming, whereas having your fingers already placed or already knowing where to go in that key is quicker, and remembering where the semitones in a scale are is a very useful way to know where to place your fingers (especially on a fretless instrument like the violin, but is also applies to guitar).


Of course looking at the key signature is easier. That wasn't my point. My point was that relating things to the tonic was faster than relating everything to a whole tone or half tone above the note below it, which eventually does relate it to the tonic, it just takes longer to do so.
#22
Quote by isaac_bandits
Of course looking at the key signature is easier. That wasn't my point. My point was that relating things to the tonic was faster than relating everything to a whole tone or half tone above the note below it, which eventually does relate it to the tonic, it just takes longer to do so.

But you don't think of where the semitones are fore every note you play. For me at least (I can't speak for whoever suggested it first) it's just a tool to place your fingers. After that you don't have to think of it again.
#23
Quote by 12345abcd3
But you don't think of where the semitones are fore every note you play. For me at least (I can't speak for whoever suggested it first) it's just a tool to place your fingers. After that you don't have to think of it again.


No. I was saying that thinking of where the semitones are is inefficient. Just knowing the intervals above the root is easier, and the key signature is even easier still.

Where to put my fingers all depends on the instrument I'm playing. When I play my guitar, I can just put my hand in the right place and the notes are all there. When I play my double bass, the thing is so big that there are only 3 notes (semitones apart, so F F♯ and G for example) on each string for each position, so I have to shift just to play a basic scale, so I have to think alot more about actually playing with the right key signature.
#24
Quote by 12345abcd3
Sorry, the semitone is between Mi and Fa.


But the point is that if you have already placed your fingers in the correct positions (which can be done by remembering where the semitones are or just by knowing the notes of the scale) then instead of having to think of the specific interval (m3, p4 etc.) you can just think of the general interval (3rd, 4th) or just the note (and not the accidental).

Already having your fingers in position eliminates the need to think about the specific interval, you can just play the general interval. Or you don't need to think about the key signature all the time.

For example, if the key sig has 2 sharps then if I see an F written then all I need to think is "play an F" and because my finger is in position to play an F# I will play an F#. However, I will be aware that I'm playing an F# but to actually play it all I need to think is F. Or if you use intervals all you have to think of is 3rd.

My point basically is that relating everything to the tonic is time consuming, whereas having your fingers already placed or already knowing where to go in that key is quicker, and remembering where the semitones in a scale are is a very useful way to know where to place your fingers (especially on a fretless instrument like the violin, but is also applies to guitar).
Thats all well and good if you are playing a scale straight up and down, or even just using it in one position, but if you want to use it all over the neck I find it a lot more useful to think in terms of intervals.

On violin I would just use the key sig - it wouldn't even occur to me to think in terms of whole and half steps.
#25
Quote by zhilla
On violin I would just use the key sig - it wouldn't even occur to me to think in terms of whole and half steps.

Well imagine you're in 6th position on the E string. Personally, I don't know those notes like I know the notes that are actually on the stave so often I find it easier to find the tonic (on the fingerboard and on the music) and just play everything in relation to it.

For example, if the tonic was D then I could find D in the music, place my 1st finger on D, place all the other fingers by either half steps or (admittedly more likely) just playing an ascending scale and then I could just play it. Then when I see a note above the 3rd ledger line I can just think 3rd of D.
#26
Quote by zhilla
Thats all well and good if you are playing a scale straight up and down, or even just using it in one position, but if you want to use it all over the neck I find it a lot more useful to think in terms of intervals.

On violin I would just use the key sig - it wouldn't even occur to me to think in terms of whole and half steps.


To each his own, but like you I also use the interval approach. It makes the most sense to me to see the tonics on the fretboard and relate intervals to them. It also ties in to my ear training because I like to think in terms of an interval against a tonic (what does the perfect 5th sound like against the I chord, etc). Looking at it as WWH... doesn't give me that perspective. The only time I may look at it that way is when I'm playing something on one string.