#1
Cm - Bdim - Cm - Ddim - Ebmaj - Gmaj - Cm

It sounds pretty cool, but what's happening here?

I mean we're obviously in the key of Cm, C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb

The Bdim would suggest harmonic minor then. Is it as simple as that?

Because, in the Ebmaj there is a Bb. But in the Gmaj is a B.

Does this have a name?
#2
Play harmonic minor except for Ebmaj, where you could change it to B or just play it in such way that it fits, it`s a b6 so you can do it. If you`re in Edorian, the G doesn`t fit in Amaj, but it does in A7 so just the chords don`t say everything...
Last edited by MaXiMuse at Dec 18, 2009,
#3
Quote by KoenDercksen
Cm - Bdim - Cm - Ddim - Ebmaj - Gmaj - Cm

It sounds pretty cool, but what's happening here?

I mean we're obviously in the key of Cm, C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb

The Bdim would suggest harmonic minor then. Is it as simple as that?

Because, in the Ebmaj there is a Bb. But in the Gmaj is a B.

Does this have a name?


The Bdim is from the C harmonic minor scale, The Gmajor chord is also from the harmonic minor. It's just simple minor harmony.

The Eb is from the C natural minor scale.

You can also harmonise the melodic minor scale for even more possibilities. ALl these chords are in key.
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Dec 18, 2009,
#4
Quote by griffRG7321
The Bdim is from the C harmonic minor scale, The Gmajor chord is also from the harmonic minor. It's just simple minor harmony.


I know but the Ebmaj was my biggest problem xD Doesn't fit in the Cm harmonic scale... I was wondering is it just accidental or does lowering/raising the seventh during a song/progression have an actual name?
#5
Quote by KoenDercksen
I know but the Ebmaj was my biggest problem xD Doesn't fit in the Cm harmonic scale... I was wondering is it just accidental or does lowering/raising the seventh during a song/progression have an actual name?


Eb major fits in the C natural minor scale, though. The seventh (and sixth) degrees are generally pretty slippery in minor keys. You can use chords that contain B while in Cm and still have your III chord.
#6
As griff said, it´s simple minor harmony. The 7th occurs both unaltered from the natural minor scale (called subtonic), and raised (called leading note) for a stronger resolve to the tonic.

The chords commonly used in a minor key are:

i
iidim
III
iv
V and (less common) v
VI
VII and viidim

III, VII and v are constructed using the unaltered seventh scale degree (in this case Bb), while V and viidim are constructed using the raised seventh scale degree (in this case B). The reason you raise the seventh degree in those chords is, as mentioned, to get a strong resolve to the tonic.

This is demonstrated by a circle progression in the key of C minor:

Cm (i) - Fm (iv) - Bb (VII) - Eb (III) - Ab (VI) - Ddim (iidim) - G (V) - Cm (i)

The strongest way to the mediant (III), Eb, is obviously not Bdim, but Bb - hence the use of the subtonic here. The strongest way to the tonic, Cm, is however G, with the leading note.
#7
In a "Minor Key" you can find a mix of Natural Minor, Harmonic Minor, and Melodic Minor. It's a bit different than the "Major Key" learning we know because in a Major Key you know when you're not in Key anymore. But with the Minor Key having a v7 and a V7 as part of the Key, your tonal center can be the same but the scales change. That's one of the long lasting "flavors" of the Minor Key.
#8
Quote by KoenDercksen
I know but the Ebmaj was my biggest problem xD Doesn't fit in the Cm harmonic scale... I was wondering is it just accidental or does lowering/raising the seventh during a song/progression have an actual name?


The Eb Major is the Relative Major of Cm, mate. Put another way, in the key of Eb, Cm is the vi. Its perfectly diatonic. The D dim I see as a passing chord to the Eb. The G major could be a loose implication (I say this because if it was a 7th it pulls harder) as a non functioning secondary dominant back to the C (m)?
Last edited by Sean0913 at Dec 18, 2009,
#9
Quote by Sean0913
The Eb Major is the Relative Major of Cm, mate. Put another way, in the key of Eb, Cm is the vi. Its perfectly diatonic. The D dim I see as a passing chord to the Eb. The G major could be a loose implication (I say this because if it was a 7th it pulls harder) as a non functioning secondary dominant back to the C (m)?


The Ddim is in key. It's not a secondary dominant because the key is Cm. And how on earth is it a non functioning dominant if it does it's function and resolves back to Cmin?
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Dec 18, 2009,
#10
Dodeka already commented on the relative Eb-Cm. That was the only thing missing up to that point.
#12
Quote by KoenDercksen
I know but the Ebmaj was my biggest problem xD Doesn't fit in the Cm harmonic scale... I was wondering is it just accidental or does lowering/raising the seventh during a song/progression have an actual name?


Yeah, minor music is based on all three minor scales, not just one. It doesn't have to (and very rarely does) conform to strict harmonic minor chords. The ♭III+ is very uncommon.

Quote by Sean0913
The Eb Major is the Relative Major of Cm, mate. Put another way, in the key of Eb, Cm is the vi. Its perfectly diatonic. The D dim I see as a passing chord to the Eb. The G major could be a loose implication (I say this because if it was a 7th it pulls harder) as a non functioning secondary dominant back to the C (m)?


But this song isn't in E♭; its in Cm. The E♭ is just the ♭III in the key of Cm.

The D° is the ii° in the key of Cm, and is perfectly diatonic.

The G is the primary dominant. It is also functioning, as it resolves to a chord with its root a fifth below (Cm).


This progression is a:
i - ♮vii° - i - ii° - ♭III - V♮ - i
in C minor.
#13
Quote by KoenDercksen
Cm - Bdim - Cm - Ddim - Ebmaj - Gmaj - Cm

It sounds pretty cool, but what's happening here?

I mean we're obviously in the key of Cm, C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb

The Bdim would suggest harmonic minor then. Is it as simple as that?

Because, in the Ebmaj there is a Bb. But in the Gmaj is a B.

Does this have a name?



Key of Eb major, C minor is the relative minor of Eb.
Yes, since there is a B instead of a Bb it raises the 7th which implies harmonic minor.

So, the notes of the C harmonic minor scale are

C D Eb F G Ab B C
I II III IV V VI VII VIII
build chords skipping every other note from the C harmonic minor scale

I C Eb G B
II D F Ab C
V G B D F
VII B D F Ab ( I m3 b5 bb7)

etc

You get the B dim from this. The D dim I'm not sure.
I think the D should be a D minor b5 (half dim). If it is a full dim chord in the progression, it's been altered. I could be totally wrong though.


The name I think is the "harmonized harmonic minor".
Last edited by fx303 at Dec 19, 2009,
#14
Quote by fx303
Key of Eb major, C minor is the relative minor of Eb.
Yes, since there is a B instead of a Bb it raises the 7th which implies harmonic minor.

So, the notes of the C harmonic minor scale are

C D Eb F G Ab B C
I II III IV V VI VII VIII
build chords skipping every other note from the C harmonic minor scale

I C Eb G B
II D F Ab C
V G B D F
VII B D F Ab ( I m3 b5 bb7)

etc

You get the B dim from this. The D dim I'm not sure.
I think the D should be a D minor b5 (half dim). If it is a full dim chord in the progression, it's been altered. I could be totally wrong though.


The name I think is the "harmonized harmonic minor".


Firstly the keys of E♭ and Cm are distinct. It is either in one or the other. In this case it is in Cm.

Secondly, a minor key does not usually conform just to chords from one of the three minor scales. It usually uses them from two or three. The B° and G are both from the harmonic minor, as the raised seventh pulls to the tonic, but the E♭ is not from the harmonic minor (which would have an E♭+) because the major chord is more consonant than the augmented chord.

The D° is diatonic to the key of Cm. ° sometimes means triad, and sometimes means seventh, but in the context of a song with only other triads, I think its fairly safe to assume its a triad.
#15
Quote by griffRG7321
The Ddim is in key. It's not a secondary dominant because the key is Cm. And how on earth is it a non functioning dominant if it does it's function and resolves back to Cmin?


It is in the key of Cm, that's correct.

In the key of Cm however the normal chord formula is

Cm Dm7b5 Eb Fm Gm (Not Major) A Bb7 Cm. The only Dominant is a Bb - so if he plays a G thats out of the key, but it functions as a secondary dominant -

With that G, you are right, it does bring it back to the C, that was just my error in saying it was a non functioning. My main points are the same, but the term "non-functioning" was incorrect. I was thinking in terms of it being enharmonic to Eb major and then taking note of the fact that the dominant diatonic was Bb and that there was no G major in C, so calling it a non functioning, wasn't quite the best choice of words, but I could have said it better that it was secondary and non diatonic.

Understand when I approach theory, I take it from a Diatonic stance. While you guys take it more from a tonal stance. whatever works and whatever resolves to the key - and harmony play loose with. This is perfectly fine, but when I approach theory and teach it/analyze it, I first approach it as a simple diatonic situation, and then modify it. I also take these ideas and condense them down to primarily Major Keys.

So, if I tell my students to play Eb Ionian, you guys might have said, its not though, its clearly Cm, some would make like I'm subjecting my kids at the academy to untold injustice and horror, because I used a relative major/minor approach to lead, for example, and I didn't pound the gavel that it was only Cm. I would have said the Key Cm, but I'd have approached the G as a secondary dominant.
#16
Quote by Sean0913
It is in the key of Cm, that's correct.

In the key of Cm however the normal chord formula is

Cm Dm7b5 Eb Fm Gm (Not Major) A Bb7 Cm. The only Dominant is a Bb - so if he plays a G thats out of the key, but it functions as a secondary dominant -

With that G, you are right, it does bring it back to the C, that was just my error in saying it was a non functioning. My main points are the same, but the term "non-functioning" was incorrect. I was thinking in terms of it being enharmonic to Eb major and then taking note of the fact that the dominant diatonic was Bb and that there was no G major in C, so calling it a non functioning, wasn't quite the best choice of words, but I could have said it better that it was secondary and non diatonic.

Understand when I approach theory, I take it from a Diatonic stance. While you guys take it more from a tonal stance. whatever works and whatever resolves to the key - and harmony play loose with. This is perfectly fine, but when I approach theory and teach it/analyze it, I first approach it as a simple diatonic situation, and then modify it. I also take these ideas and condense them down to primarily Major Keys.

So, if I tell my students to play Eb Ionian, you guys might have said, its not though, its clearly Cm, some would make like I'm subjecting my kids at the academy to untold injustice and horror, because I used a relative major/minor approach to lead, for example, and I didn't pound the gavel that it was only Cm. I would have said the Key Cm, but I'd have approached the G as a secondary dominant.


Any chord from the 3 minor scales is diatonic.

A secondary dominant is one that doesn't belong to the key your in (usually V/V)and it's used to modulate to another key (normally the dominant). The G is perfectly diatonic. As is the B dim and D dim.
#17
Quote by Sean0913

Cm Dm7b5 Eb Fm Gm (Not Major) A Bb7 Cm. The only Dominant is a Bb - so if he plays a G thats out of the key, but it functions as a secondary dominant


A secondary dominant is any dominant built on any scale degree other than the ♮5, and as thus, it is any dominant that does not resolve to the root.

Quote by Sean0913
With that G, you are right, it does bring it back to the C, that was just my error in saying it was a non functioning. My main points are the same, but the term "non-functioning" was incorrect. I was thinking in terms of it being enharmonic to Eb major and then taking note of the fact that the dominant diatonic was Bb and that there was no G major in C, so calling it a non functioning, wasn't quite the best choice of words, but I could have said it better that it was secondary and non diatonic.


Stop thinking about E♭. It's in Cm. Think in terms of that. As Griff already pointed out, the chords from any of the three minor scales (harmonic, melodic, and natural) are diatonic. Thus the diatonic triads in Cm are: Cm, D°, Dm, E♭, E♭+, Fm, F, Gm, G, A♭, A°, B♭ B°. All of the chords in this progression are diatonic to Cm, including the G major chord.

Quote by Sean0913
Understand when I approach theory, I take it from a Diatonic stance. While you guys take it more from a tonal stance. whatever works and whatever resolves to the key - and harmony play loose with. This is perfectly fine, but when I approach theory and teach it/analyze it, I first approach it as a simple diatonic situation, and then modify it. I also take these ideas and condense them down to primarily Major Keys.


We are thinking from a diatonic perspective. Firstly, what is the tonic. Secondly, what chords are diatonic. Thirdly, why are the non-diatonic chords there. If we answer these, we get: Cm is the tonic. All the chords in the progression are diatonic.

But this is a minor key. It is based on three scales. Major keys are based on one. Its good to realize that C natural minor and E♭ have the same notes, and that you can play the same shapes for the two keys, but you also have to keep in mind which note the tonic is.

Quote by Sean0913
So, if I tell my students to play Eb Ionian, you guys might have said, its not though, its clearly Cm, some would make like I'm subjecting my kids at the academy to untold injustice and horror, because I used a relative major/minor approach to lead, for example, and I didn't pound the gavel that it was only Cm. I would have said the Key Cm, but I'd have approached the G as a secondary dominant.


Its no "untold injustice and horror", its just explaining things in an incorrect way, which will make certain things harder to understand. If you want to tell them "You're in the key of C minor, which is the relative minor to E♭. You can use all the same notes, patterns, licks and everything that you would use in E♭ but its technically called C minor, and it resolves to Cm rather than E♭." then that's fine. It just seems silly to treat E♭ and Cm as the same thing. Then the student will be confused as to why the V/vi comes up so often in major keys, but the V/ii, V/iii, V/IV, V/V, and V/vii are much less common. It just makes it clearer where the G chord comes from.

Why would you approach the G as a secondary dominant in Cm? It is the primary dominant in the keys of C and Cm, as it is the dominant chord built off of the ♮5 in those keys. I guess you could say its a ♭II/♯IV which is a secondary dominant as well (not that a ♯IV is a common chord in a major key, but that's besides the point), but when it clearly goes to the i, the only way you could think of it as a secondary dominant, would be to analyze it as V/i, which is just a bit redundant.
#18
Quote by isaac_bandits
A secondary dominant is any dominant built on any scale degree other than the ♮5, and as thus, it is any dominant that does not resolve to the root.


Stop thinking about E♭. It's in Cm. Think in terms of that. As Griff already pointed out, the chords from any of the three minor scales (harmonic, melodic, and natural) are diatonic. Thus the diatonic triads in Cm are: Cm, D°, Dm, E♭, E♭+, Fm, F, Gm, G, A♭, A°, B♭ B°. All of the chords in this progression are diatonic to Cm, including the G major chord.


We are thinking from a diatonic perspective. Firstly, what is the tonic. Secondly, what chords are diatonic. Thirdly, why are the non-diatonic chords there. If we answer these, we get: Cm is the tonic. All the chords in the progression are diatonic.

But this is a minor key. It is based on three scales. Major keys are based on one. Its good to realize that C natural minor and E♭ have the same notes, and that you can play the same shapes for the two keys, but you also have to keep in mind which note the tonic is.


Its no "untold injustice and horror", its just explaining things in an incorrect way, which will make certain things harder to understand. If you want to tell them "You're in the key of C minor, which is the relative minor to E♭. You can use all the same notes, patterns, licks and everything that you would use in E♭ but its technically called C minor, and it resolves to Cm rather than E♭." then that's fine. It just seems silly to treat E♭ and Cm as the same thing. Then the student will be confused as to why the V/vi comes up so often in major keys, but the V/ii, V/iii, V/IV, V/V, and V/vii are much less common. It just makes it clearer where the G chord comes from.

Why would you approach the G as a secondary dominant in Cm? It is the primary dominant in the keys of C and Cm, as it is the dominant chord built off of the ♮5 in those keys. I guess you could say its a ♭II/♯IV which is a secondary dominant as well (not that a ♯IV is a common chord in a major key, but that's besides the point), but when it clearly goes to the i, the only way you could think of it as a secondary dominant, would be to analyze it as V/i, which is just a bit redundant.


As I understand it - you are using three minor types. Natural, Melodic and Harmonic, right?

I was just using ONE as my point of reference - Natural. So that's why all my comments were probably sounding off to you guys, since you were approaching the "Diatonic" from 3 minor types instead of 1. I get what you were doing now and why you guys say "Its Diatonic" I didn't catch that you guys were approaching it from 3 minor types. First time ever I heard of someone approaching Minor and taking it as a given that we are dealing with 3 minor types. For me, and when I teach, we approach it as minor being natural. Melodic and Harmonic we leave for other situations, we dont freely mix and match them, which is why this is "news" to me.

The first part of what you expressed about explaining Eb to Cm is how I approach it at the academy - the second part of your statement I don't. I don't say Eb is Cm, ever.
#19
Quote by KoenDercksen
The Bdim would suggest harmonic minor then. Is it as simple as that?
Simpler even.

If the song establishes Cminor as the tonal centre, it's in Cminor. If tonality is established, it wouldn't even matter what other chords are used.

And there's no such thing as "in the key of harmonic minor." Tonality is either major or minor.
Quote by KoenDercksen
Cm - Bdim - Cm - Ddim - Ebmaj - Gmaj - Cm

It sounds pretty cool, but what's happening here?
Bdim acts as a dominate chord, seeing as it has some of the same notes as Gmaj does (B, D, the notes that enable Cminor to be established as the tonal centre).

The Ddim is simply a passing chord used to lead into Ebmaj. Not much I can say here, passing chords could be almost anything.

The Ebmaj is used as a predominate chord, whose function is primarily to set up the dominate chord (Gmaj). This creates a III-V movement, which is interesting and sort of uncommon. It does make sense when you look at the individual notes, as Eb moves well to D and Bb moves well to B.

And then Gmaj obviously moves well to C, using an authentic cadence to once again establish the tonality as C.
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#20
Quote by Sean0913
As I understand it - you are using three minor types. Natural, Melodic and Harmonic, right?

I was just using ONE as my point of reference - Natural. So that's why all my comments were probably sounding off to you guys, since you were approaching the "Diatonic" from 3 minor types instead of 1. I get what you were doing now and why you guys say "Its Diatonic" I didn't catch that you guys were approaching it from 3 minor types. First time ever I heard of someone approaching Minor and taking it as a given that we are dealing with 3 minor types. For me, and when I teach, we approach it as minor being natural. Melodic and Harmonic we leave for other situations, we dont freely mix and match them, which is why this is "news" to me.


Yeah, there isn't really a standard definition for "diatonic". Some would use diatonic as only coming from a scale with seven notes that has only half and whole tones where the half tones are maximally spaced. Others use it more freely, to include harmonic and melodic minor as well. However, even if using the stricter definition, G in the key of Cm is still the primary dominant (even though it is not diatonic), because it resolves to the tonic.

In minor keys, the melodic, and especially the harmonic minors come up very often. Originally minor songs used strictly natural minor, but this did not allow for strong resolution to the tonic (as those same set of notes has a stronger pull to the relative major). To counter this, people started using the V7 chord, which was so effective in major cadences, in the minor key. This worked wonderfully, and allowed minor music to be freely made, with the minor tonic clearly established, despite using all of the chords of the relative major. As thus, a new scale, the harmonic minor was born. It was the minor scale with the raised leading tone. From this scale, some chords were common with those of the natural minor key, and others were different. Of these new chords, the V7 and ♮vii°7 chords became very common place amongst the chords of the natural minor, while the III+, imaj7, and any other chords with the ♮7 as an extension, are quite uncommon. Understandably, when writing melodies composers wanted to make use of the ♮7 over chords with the ♮7 in it, and this worked, except the augmented second between the ♭6 and ♮7 was dissonant, and unpleasant (even though it has become fairly common nowadays), so they raised the sixth when ascending, so as to have the melody be smooth and lead to the tonic, and they lowered the seventh when descending, as it was not leading to the tonic, so the raised seventh was unnecessary. As thus, a third minor scale was born. This one, the melodic minor was different when ascending as when descending. In recent times, as the descending melodic minor is identical to the natural minor, melodic minor has come to mean just the ascending version.

In alot of music, the three forms of minor are "freely mixed and matched". The harmonic and melodic minor has a two diminished, and an augmented chord, which makes it difficult to write progressions solely with them, so they are rarely used alone. The natural minor does not have a great pull to the tonic, so it is sometimes used alone, but the other two are usually mixed with it, to better establish the tonic.

Quote by Sean0913
The first part of what you expressed about explaining Eb to Cm is how I approach it at the academy - the second part of your statement I don't. I don't say Eb is Cm, ever.


That's good. Its annoying when people assume that there is no difference between relative keys.

Quote by demonofthenight

Bdim acts as a dominate chord,


I always see you using "dominate" instead of "dominant". Is that the correct name where you come from?
#21
Quote by isaac_bandits
I always see you using "dominate" instead of "dominant". Is that the correct name where you come from?

No, I'm just prone to stupid mistakes. Dominant is correct. Dominate is what I'll use if I'm tired.
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