#1
First off, all chords in this question are seventh chords, no simple triads.

I know how it works, replacing a chord in the progression with a dominant 7th that is 6 semitones higher (very simplified explanation)

My question is this, when using tritone substitution, say in the key of C major, is the Cmajor7 chord the only thing you can replace (which in this case, would be with an F#7 I believe) or can you take any chord that has a 7th degree in it in the progression and replace it with a 7th chord 6 semitones away?

staying in C major, could you replace:
Cmaj7 - F#7
Dmin7 - G#7
Emin7 - A#7
Fmaj7 - B7
G7 - C#7
Amin7 - D#7

and regarding the last chord in the C major scale, the Bm7b5, could you tritone substitute this? There is a minor 7th, but there is a b3 and a b5 as well. does this affect how it works?

anyway, if what I wrote above can be done and is correct, than it would also be correct to say that tritone substitution is taking the secondary dominant of the chord in question, flattening the root, and building a 7th chord around it, right?

Because in C major, replacing things with secondary dominants:
Cmaj7 - G7
Dmin7 - A7
Emin7 - B7
Fmaj7 - C7
G7 - D7
Amin7 - E7

If you look at what I did above, you see that all the substituted tritones are 1/2 step down from the secondary dominants.
Quote by Zero-Hartman
The Bible is awesome. Revelation is so badass, I mean, dragons and angels and the devil having an epic battle in the clouds? Badass.
#2
Firstly, i know tritone substitution to be something different to how i think you explained it.

A Tritone sub is where the dominant fifth chord is substituted with a dominant bII chord, explained simplest as follows in the key of C-

Cmaj7 - Dm - G7

The G7 contains a tritone between the 3 and b7 intervals (B and F).
These 2 notes are also contained in Db7.

Therefore if you make the progression

Cmaj7 - Dm - Db7

You have then substituted the dominant chord, whilst maintaining the original tritone.

Think that's right! Is that how you understand it?

edit - sorry, just noticed, you are right about the 6 semitones gap. The new dominant chord is 6 semitones away.
Last edited by branny1982 at Dec 27, 2009,
#3
Quote by branny1982
Firstly, i know tritone substitution to be something different to how i think you explained it.

A Tritone sub is where the dominant fifth chord is substituted with a dominant bII chord, explained simplest as follows in the key of C-

Cmaj7 - Dm - G7

The G7 contains a tritone between the 3 and b7 intervals (B and F).
These 2 notes are also contained in Db7.

Therefore if you make the progression

Cmaj7 - Dm - Db7

You have then substituted the dominant chord, whilst maintaining the original tritone.

Think that's right! Is that how you understand it?

edit - sorry, just noticed, you are right about the 6 semitones gap. The new dominant chord is 6 semitones away.


It took mea while to realize what we are saying is the same thing, on my first little 'diagram' of sorts, I have linked the G7 to a C#7, which is enharmonically the same as a Db7

so I'm doing this right
my original question still stands though, can you do this with any chord in the scale?

so say (still in C major) the progression was:
Amin7 - Fmaj7 - Cmaj7

could you replace it with:
Amin7 - Fmaj7 - F#7

?

or even replace all of them with their tritones, so it would be:

D#7 - B7 - F#7

or does this not work?
Quote by Zero-Hartman
The Bible is awesome. Revelation is so badass, I mean, dragons and angels and the devil having an epic battle in the clouds? Badass.
#4
Quote by Shadow_Hawk
It took mea while to realize what we are saying is the same thing, on my first little 'diagram' of sorts, I have linked the G7 to a C#7, which is enharmonically the same as a Db7

so I'm doing this right
my original question still stands though, can you do this with any chord in the scale?

so say (still in C major) the progression was:
Amin7 - Fmaj7 - Cmaj7

could you replace it with:
Amin7 - Fmaj7 - F#7

?

or even replace all of them with their tritones, so it would be:

D#7 - B7 - F#7

or does this not work?


Not exactly.... it doesn't work for every type of chord. As far as I know, it's only dominant chords that you would substitute for other dominant chords.


So in ii V i like Dm7 G7 C maj7 you could substitute the G7 with Db7.


Notice that the notes in the substitute chord (Db F Ab Cb) could function as chord tones in an altered version of the original chord G7 ... Db(b5) F(b7) Ab(b9) Cb(3)

^ I can't think of a tritone sub situation where this correlation in functionality doesn't exist.


Quote by Shadow_Hawk

so say (still in C major) the progression was:
Amin7 - Fmaj7 - Cmaj7

could you replace it with:
Amin7 - Fmaj7 - F#7



^ this is not how tritone subs are used.

If you really want to understand tritone subs, a good thing to do now would be to study actual tritone subs. learn some songs/chord progressions that use them.

That way your theory will have a context, and this will make alot more sense to you.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Dec 27, 2009,
#5
Quote by GuitarMunky
Not exactly.... it doesn't work for every type of chord. As far as I know, it's only dominant chords that you would substitute for other dominant chords.

So in ii V i like Dm7 G7 C maj7 you could substitute the G7 with Db7.


Notice that the notes in the substitute chord (Db F Ab Cb) could function as chord tones in an altered version of the original chord G7 ... Db(b5) F(b7) Ab(b9) Cb(3)

^ This correlation in functionality will always be the case for tritone subs.


alright? so then just the 5th scale degree (dominant), which can be substituted for a dominant chord that is a 1/2 step below its secondary dominant.

so in C Major:
5th degree is G7
Secondary dominant is D7
Tritone Substitution is Db7

time for me to work this out for every major key now
Quote by Zero-Hartman
The Bible is awesome. Revelation is so badass, I mean, dragons and angels and the devil having an epic battle in the clouds? Badass.
#6
Quote by Shadow_Hawk
alright? so then just the 5th scale degree (dominant), which can be substituted for a dominant chord that is a 1/2 step below its secondary dominant.

so in C Major:
5th degree is G7
Secondary dominant is D7
Tritone Substitution is Db7

time for me to work this out for every major key now


Well, you can sub any dom7 chord with another dominant 7th chord who's root is a tritone above the root of the chord to be subbed. (which ultimately gets you to the same answer....Db7 is a tritone sub for G7.

G7 .... up a tritone = Db .........Db7 = Sub

The tritone sub serves the same function, but colors the resolution.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Dec 27, 2009,
#7
This only works for dominant chords. Here's why:

The 'skeleton' of a dominant chord is the tritone between the third and the seventh. The tritone, since it divides our twelve tone tuning system in half, can only be inverted once. F# / C into C / F#.

The fourth and seventh degrees are the most important degrees in a tonality. If you slip them during a musical piece, the listener will right away be able to identify tonality, if properly resolved. If you play it out of the blue, the listener will likewise be able to "feel" where it needs to be resolved.

So, this is what a tritone sub really does:
1) it takes those two degrees, the third and seventh of the dominant chord. In C, it would be B and F.

2) Other functions are assigned to the two tones: F becomes the third instead of a seventh; B, on the other hand, is now a seventh, instead of a third.

3) Now, the rest of the chord will be filled. This new chord is also be dominant. So, what major chord has F as the third? Db. That B becomes C flat, and we now have a dominant chord.

If you are having trouble, read the first two paragraphs again.
#8
I understand it, and thanks, that explained my biggest question, if it can work for any 7th chord or just dominant 7ths.

And you're right about being able to just 'hear' it. I played the progression I wrote earlier where I tried to tritone sub everything, and it just sounded wrong.

when I did it properly, everything fell into place.
Quote by Zero-Hartman
The Bible is awesome. Revelation is so badass, I mean, dragons and angels and the devil having an epic battle in the clouds? Badass.
#9
Quote by Shadow_Hawk
I understand it, and thanks, that explained my biggest question, if it can work for any 7th chord or just dominant 7ths.

And you're right about being able to just 'hear' it. I played the progression I wrote earlier where I tried to tritone sub everything, and it just sounded wrong.

when I did it properly, everything fell into place.


Try applying the same logic from dominant chords, to other sevenths. I'll do a maj7:

In a maj7 chord there are perfect fifths between the root and fifth and between the third and seventh. Change this up. Take Cmaj7, and you have C-G and E-B. Then make C-G the third and seventh, and you have A♭maj7. Make E-B the root and fifth, and you have Emaj7. Both of those chords (up or down a major third, with the same chord quality) works for maj7 subs.
#10
Quote by isaac_bandits
Try applying the same logic from dominant chords, to other sevenths. I'll do a maj7:

In a maj7 chord there are perfect fifths between the root and fifth and between the third and seventh. Change this up. Take Cmaj7, and you have C-G and E-B. Then make C-G the third and seventh, and you have A♭maj7. Make E-B the root and fifth, and you have Emaj7. Both of those chords (up or down a major third, with the same chord quality) works for maj7 subs.



Are you suggesting AbMaj7 and EMaj7 as a subs for a Cmaj7?
shred is gaudy music
#11
Quote by isaac_bandits
Try applying the same logic from dominant chords, to other sevenths. I'll do a maj7:

In a maj7 chord there are perfect fifths between the root and fifth and between the third and seventh. Change this up. Take Cmaj7, and you have C-G and E-B. Then make C-G the third and seventh, and you have A♭maj7. Make E-B the root and fifth, and you have Emaj7. Both of those chords (up or down a major third, with the same chord quality) works for maj7 subs.

Could you please clarify?

So you have your CMaj7 chord: C, E, G, B

you take C and G and find the chord that would have them as the third and fifth?
A, C, E, G?
or Ab, C, E, G
or Ab, C, Eb, G?

how do you know what chord to use?
or do you have to use a chord with the same tonality that the first chord you had was?
can you just go up or down a tritone?
explain how the EMaj7 works.. then..
#12
Quote by GuitarMunky
Are you suggesting AbMaj7 and EMaj7 as a subs for a Cmaj7?


Yeah. Coltrane changes.

Quote by mdwallin
Could you please clarify?

So you have your CMaj7 chord: C, E, G, B

you take C and G and find the chord that would have them as the third and fifth?
A, C, E, G?
or Ab, C, E, G
or Ab, C, Eb, G?

how do you know what chord to use?
or do you have to use a chord with the same tonality that the first chord you had was?
can you just go up or down a tritone?
explain how the EMaj7 works.. then..


I guess you could do either. I'd suggest the one with the same tonality. You could try the maj7+ chord, but they don't usually work too well.

The Emaj7? Just make the third and seventh of Cmaj7, and add in the major third and seventh to preserve the tonality.
#13
Quote by isaac_bandits
Yeah. Coltrane changes.


I guess you could do either. I'd suggest the one with the same tonality. You could try the maj7+ chord, but they don't usually work too well.

The Emaj7? Just make the third and seventh of Cmaj7, and add in the major third and seventh to preserve the tonality.


Edit:

I'm not sure that what you are talking about is the same thing as a tritone sub.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coltrane_changes


btw TS, this article actually explains it quite well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone_substitution
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Dec 27, 2009,
#14
Quote by CanCan
This only works for dominant chords. Here's why:

The 'skeleton' of a dominant chord is the tritone between the third and the seventh. The tritone, since it divides our twelve tone tuning system in half, can only be inverted once. F# / C into C / F#.

The fourth and seventh degrees are the most important degrees in a tonality. If you slip them during a musical piece, the listener will right away be able to identify tonality, if properly resolved. If you play it out of the blue, the listener will likewise be able to "feel" where it needs to be resolved.

So, this is what a tritone sub really does:
1) it takes those two degrees, the third and seventh of the dominant chord. In C, it would be B and F.

2) Other functions are assigned to the two tones: F becomes the third instead of a seventh; B, on the other hand, is now a seventh, instead of a third.

3) Now, the rest of the chord will be filled. This new chord is also be dominant. So, what major chord has F as the third? Db. That B becomes C flat, and we now have a dominant chord.

If you are having trouble, read the first two paragraphs again.


Brilliant explanation. I was about to try and go into it, but frankly I think your explanation was succinct and spot on! The only thing I'd add is to point out that the tritone takes the third and seventh and inverts them basically.
Last edited by Sean0913 at Dec 27, 2009,
#15
Quote by GuitarMunky
Edit:

I'm not sure that what you are talking about is the same thing as a tritone sub.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coltrane_changes


btw TS, this article actually explains it quite well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone_substitution


No, they're not the same. I was just explaining what he could do if he wanted to do substitutions on the major sevenths. Its a similar train of though, but since it doesn't move the chord by a tritone, its not a tritone sub.
#16
Quote by isaac_bandits
No, they're not the same. I was just explaining what he could do if he wanted to do substitutions on the major sevenths. Its a similar train of though, but since it doesn't move the chord by a tritone, its not a tritone sub.



now, that makes sense.
shred is gaudy music
#17
Quote by CanCan
This only works for dominant chords. Here's why:

The 'skeleton' of a dominant chord is the tritone between the third and the seventh. The tritone, since it divides our twelve tone tuning system in half, can only be inverted once. F# / C into C / F#.

The fourth and seventh degrees are the most important degrees in a tonality. If you slip them during a musical piece, the listener will right away be able to identify tonality, if properly resolved. If you play it out of the blue, the listener will likewise be able to "feel" where it needs to be resolved.

So, this is what a tritone sub really does:
1) it takes those two degrees, the third and seventh of the dominant chord. In C, it would be B and F.

2) Other functions are assigned to the two tones: F becomes the third instead of a seventh; B, on the other hand, is now a seventh, instead of a third.

3) Now, the rest of the chord will be filled. This new chord is also be dominant. So, what major chord has F as the third? Db. That B becomes C flat, and we now have a dominant chord.

If you are having trouble, read the first two paragraphs again.


This.

+1
#18
Before you get all crazy going into the Coltrane Changes and stuff...

Understand that "seventh chords" means "dominant 7th chords". And the general idea of tritone subs is only based on dom7 chords, not Maj7 and not m7 chords.

And understand that you can replace ANY dom7 chord with another dom7 chord a tritone higher OR lower than the original dom7 chord. But, that you can also replace any dom7 chord with any other dom7 chord that falls in a Min3rd sequence.

With this in mind I'll rewrite the OP chord examples to be correct...and forget about the Key of C Major when reading this, these are a number of dom7 chords and their subs.

C7 - F#7 (Gb7)
D7 - G#7 (Ab7)
E7 - A#7 (Bb7)
F7 - B7 (Cb7)
G7 - C#7 (Db7)
A7 - D#7 (Eb7)

Written with the "replace any dom7 chord with any other dom7 chord that falls in a Min3rd sequence"idea, you will find a dom7 chord between each pair of chords listed above...like:

A7 - Eb7 would actually be: A7 - C7 - Eb7 - Gb7

See how each of those chords is a Min3rd from each other? Feel free to take liberties when an A7 chord comes up and use all of these chords, or use them when a C7, or a Eb7, or a Gb7 chord shows up in a progression. They will all fit.

Regarding your question about m7b5 chords, the m7b5 chord is a common substitute for a dom7 chord. IOW, if you play Bm7b5 it is a rootless G9 chord played from G's M3 Interval, B. Check out Stormy Monday by T-Bone Walker, it's used all over the place in that tune as a substitute for dom7 chords.

I have number of tutorials on the tritone/b5 substitution that will help you out a lot.

Read this for the basics: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/MelMinPrim/Intro.htm

If you want to learn some more indepth applications of it let me know I have some serious tutorials beyond the basics. I can show you how to turn a common I-II7-IIm7-V7 progression into nothing but Diminished 7 chords by way of the b5 substitution concept.

Above all...to understand all of this stuff...there is ONE thing you can study that will put EVERYTHING "music" in your hands...that's...

learn everything you can about "Cadences". It's the most important thing you can learn about music. Because the coolest things in music are explained through "Cadences".
Last edited by MikeDodge at Dec 28, 2009,
#19
Quote by MikeDodge
Before you get all crazy going into the Coltrane Changes and stuff...

Understand that "seventh chords" means "dominant 7th chords". And the general idea of tritone subs is only based on dom7 chords, not Maj7 and not m7 chords.

And understand that you can replace ANY dom7 chord with another dom7 chord a tritone higher OR lower than the original dom7 chord. But, that you can also replace any dom7 chord with any other dom7 chord that falls in a Min3rd sequence.

With this in mind I'll rewrite the OP chord examples to be correct...and forget about the Key of C Major when reading this, these are a number of dom7 chords and their subs.

C7 - F#7 (Gb7)
D7 - G#7 (Ab7)
E7 - A#7 (Bb7)
F7 - B7 (Cb7)
G7 - C#7 (Db7)
A7 - D#7 (Eb7)

Written with the "replace any dom7 chord with any other dom7 chord that falls in a Min3rd sequence"idea, you will find a dom7 chord between each pair of chords listed above...like:

A7 - Eb7 would actually be: A7 - C7 - Eb7 - Gb7

See how each of those chords is a Min3rd from each other? Feel free to take liberties when an A7 chord comes up and use all of these chords, or use them when a C7, or a Eb7, or a Gb7 chord shows up in a progression. They will all fit.

Regarding your question about m7b5 chords, the m7b5 chord is a common substitute for a dom7 chord. IOW, if you play Bm7b5 it is a rootless G9 chord played from G's M3 Interval, B. Check out Stormy Monday by T-Bone Walker, it's used all over the place in that tune as a substitute for dom7 chords.

I have number of tutorials on the tritone/b5 substitution that will help you out a lot.

Read this for the basics: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/MelMinPrim/Intro.htm

If you want to learn some more indepth applications of it let me know I have some serious tutorials beyond the basics. I can show you how to turn a common I-II7-IIm7-V7 progression into nothing but Diminished 7 chords by way of the b5 substitution concept.

Above all...to understand all of this stuff...there is ONE thing you can study that will put EVERYTHING "music" in your hands...that's...

learn everything you can about "Cadences". It's the most important thing you can learn about music. Because the coolest things in music are explained through "Cadences".


Cool Mike, I learned something about the m7b5 chords and seeing them as subbing for dom. The rootless G9 chord makes sense! In my own chordal studies Ive been looking more at rootless chords, not just triads but things like maj 11, maj 13s etc and how they lay over the strings of the guitar. Good stuff!
#20
one point about the b5 sub...you can't just use it at random...it has to "fit" harmonic and/or melodic lines...

if a progression begins CM7 - A7 etc...just because its a dom 7th chord does not mean you can use the b5 sub principle correctly in this case Eb7.....it may not fit the harmonic or melodic line of the tune..

play well

wolf

so take care with subs in general .. and a bit of extra care with the b5...
#21
Quote by MikeDodge
Understand that "seventh chords" means "dominant 7th chords". And the general idea of tritone subs is only based on dom7 chords, not Maj7 and not m7 chords.


We know that X7 means dominant. However, in the context of his sentence, which asked if you could tritone sub any seventh chord, or just dominant seventh chord, "seventh chord" was being used to refer to any chord that is extended to the seventh, regardless of what quality of seventh that is, just like how "triad" is used for major, minor, augmented, or diminished. It's annoying that seventh can mean just dominant, or the entire set

Quote by MikeDodge
And understand that you can replace ANY dom7 chord with another dom7 chord a tritone higher OR lower than the original dom7 chord. But, that you can also replace any dom7 chord with any other dom7 chord that falls in a Min3rd sequence.

With this in mind I'll rewrite the OP chord examples to be correct...and forget about the Key of C Major when reading this, these are a number of dom7 chords and their subs.

C7 - F#7 (Gb7)
D7 - G#7 (Ab7)
E7 - A#7 (Bb7)
F7 - B7 (Cb7)
G7 - C#7 (Db7)
A7 - D#7 (Eb7)

Written with the "replace any dom7 chord with any other dom7 chord that falls in a Min3rd sequence"idea, you will find a dom7 chord between each pair of chords listed above...like:

A7 - Eb7 would actually be: A7 - C7 - Eb7 - Gb7

See how each of those chords is a Min3rd from each other? Feel free to take liberties when an A7 chord comes up and use all of these chords, or use them when a C7, or a Eb7, or a Gb7 chord shows up in a progression. They will all fit.

Regarding your question about m7b5 chords, the m7b5 chord is a common substitute for a dom7 chord. IOW, if you play Bm7b5 it is a rootless G9 chord played from G's M3 Interval, B. Check out Stormy Monday by T-Bone Walker, it's used all over the place in that tune as a substitute for dom7 chords.

I have number of tutorials on the tritone/b5 substitution that will help you out a lot.

Read this for the basics: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/MelMinPrim/Intro.htm

If you want to learn some more indepth applications of it let me know I have some serious tutorials beyond the basics. I can show you how to turn a common I-II7-IIm7-V7 progression into nothing but Diminished 7 chords by way of the b5 substitution concept.

Above all...to understand all of this stuff...there is ONE thing you can study that will put EVERYTHING "music" in your hands...that's...

learn everything you can about "Cadences". It's the most important thing you can learn about music. Because the coolest things in music are explained through "Cadences".


What's the term for subbing dominants with other dominants a minor third above or below?

I've seen a site somewhere, which talked about building chords from diminished, and augmented triads. You can take any augmented triad, lower one of the notes, and you get a major triad. You can do this to an augmented triad, and get three different major chords, with their roots a major third apart, which can all be subbed for eachother. Then you can add the major seventh to any of these major chords, and you still have the sub. The same works with minor chords from augmented triads, only you have to raise one of the chord tones. Then you can alter diminished chords, and get the same idea, only with minor third separations between the chords. Since a dominant chord is just a diminished chord, with one scale degree lowered, you can sub dominant chords around by minor thirds. You can do the same with half-diminished chords as well.
#22
Isaac..

What's the term for subbing dominants with other dominants a minor third above or below?

to me its an aspect of symmetric harmony...as you point out the diminished chord altered becomes a 7b9 chord which can be used very effectively using symmetric harmony...

there are many substitute principles to be explored .. for me this is "thinking in more than one key at a time"....

take G7b5...it can also be Db7b5...

there are quite a few of these type of chord subs to be found...using them correctly takes some time and experimentation...

play well

wolf
#23
Quote by isaac_bandits
We know that X7 means dominant. However, in the context of his sentence, which asked if you could tritone sub any seventh chord, or just dominant seventh chord, "seventh chord" was being used to refer to any chord that is extended to the seventh, regardless of what quality of seventh that is, just like how "triad" is used for major, minor, augmented, or diminished. It's annoying that seventh can mean just dominant, or the entire set


The reason I clarified the "seventh chord" in his post was because of the this in his post...

staying in C major, could you replace:
Cmaj7 - F#7
Dmin7 - G#7
Emin7 - A#7
Fmaj7 - B7
G7 - C#7
Amin7 - D#7

That has nothing to do with the tritone sub since the tritone sub is related to dom7 chords only.


What's the term for subbing dominants with other dominants a minor third above or below?


The term is called "the Diminished scale". The Diminished scale (made of either HWHWHWHWetc... or WHWHWHWHW, etc) has four major triads, four minor triads, for m7 chords, for m7b5 chord, and four dom7 chords in it.

And, each of these groups of chords is a Min3rd apart.

Since a dom7 chord is inherently unstable, you can use those other chords almost all the time. Start experimenting with them today. Once your ears get the sound you can really take music where you might not have been able to before.
Last edited by MikeDodge at Dec 28, 2009,
#24
Another spot the tritone/b5 sub gets interesting is that you can approach just about any chord with it's V7. So, that b5 sub is available all over the place as you move from chord to chord. This helps you play from chord to chord instead of n this chord, then on that chord". It adds forward motion to your playing.
#25
Quote by MikeDodge



The term is called "the Diminished scale". The Diminished scale (made of either HWHWHWHWetc... or WHWHWHWHW, etc) has four major triads, four minor triads, for m7 chords, for m7b5 chord, and four dom7 chords in it.



That's one way of getting to it, but that's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a term that refers to deriving major and minor chords from augmented triads, and deriving dominant and half-diminished chords from diminished seventh chords, which allows many substitutions up/down thirds and tritones.
#26
Quote by isaac_bandits
That's one way of getting to it, but that's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a term that refers to deriving major and minor chords from augmented triads, and deriving dominant and half-diminished chords from diminished seventh chords, which allows many substitutions up/down thirds and tritones.



You might mean the Pat Martino thing of changing one note in a triad and have it be another chord. I think he calls it Think Tank.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:60rWoawgOj0J:www.patmartino.com/Articles/GuitarPlayer_April_2004.pdf+pat+martino+augmented+chords+one+note&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgjzNJyjsYvNxQzroN2huFYpxELrD2SvZwMorwoJ0YcdC-z9574SovcVl3XVCZgod8BuoxpUM387I8E0kzl9rnuvaPqGwBuepEf0jYPHK5LKWh3szQ3Hfjpq5lrDSekw_jXEIwo&sig=AHIEtbR__6-3lH9hiIlXK4h7HRL1RMIqOQ

This is not used as a musical concept but more as a way of memorizing major, minor, aug, and dim chords and a simple way to visualize them on the fretboard. It has nothing to do with the b5 subs we are talking about, as it pertains to a musical concept. It's only for memorization of the fretboard.

But how the b5 subs work is because of the unstableness of the dom7 chords, and the diminished scale that they are built from plays a HUGE part in things musically.
Last edited by MikeDodge at Dec 28, 2009,
#27
Here's how you can use a m7b5 or rootless dom9 sub, as it pertains to the diminised scales and it's relations...

Take a straight IIm7-V7-Imaj7 progression in C, like: ||: Dm7 | G7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||

Try this: ||: Dm7 | Bm7b5 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||

Now take that G7 and let's look at the four dom7, m7, m7b5, and dim7 chords in action from the diminished scale...try this...

Dom7 subs...
||: Dm7 | G7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||
||: Dm7 | Bb7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||
||: Dm7 | Db7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||
||: Dm7 | E7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||

m7 subs...
||: Dm7 | Fm7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||
||: Dm7 | Am7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||
||: Dm7 | Cm7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||
||: Dm7 | Ebm7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||

m7b5 subs...
||: Dm7 | Bm7b5 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||
||: Dm7 | Dm7b7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||
||: Dm7 | Fm7b5 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||
||: Dm7 | Abm7b5 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||

dim7 subs...
||: Dm7 | Abdim7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||
||: Dm7 | Bdim7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||
||: Dm7 | Ddim7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||
||: Dm7 | Fdim7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||

Now interchange any of those chords in bar 2. You could even play a chord a beat like:

||: Dm7 | Bm7b5 Abdim7 Fm7b5 Db7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 :||

All of those subs are directly from the Diminished scale, I'm sure some of the enharmonics are questionable, but if you know note names I'm sure you'll get around them ok.

The only thing you really need to know beyond that is to REMEMBER the basic Major and Minor triads that are part of those dom7 and m7 chords, as at times those basic triads will smooth out any rough sounds. But after you get use to those rough sounds you'll realize they all work.
Last edited by MikeDodge at Dec 28, 2009,
#28
Quote by MikeDodge
You might mean the Pat Martino thing of changing one note in a triad and have it be another chord. I think he calls it Think Tank.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:60rWoawgOj0J:www.patmartino.com/Articles/GuitarPlayer_April_2004.pdf+pat+martino+augmented+chords+one+note&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgjzNJyjsYvNxQzroN2huFYpxELrD2SvZwMorwoJ0YcdC-z9574SovcVl3XVCZgod8BuoxpUM387I8E0kzl9rnuvaPqGwBuepEf0jYPHK5LKWh3szQ3Hfjpq5lrDSekw_jXEIwo&sig=AHIEtbR__6-3lH9hiIlXK4h7HRL1RMIqOQ

This is not used as a musical concept but more as a way of memorizing major, minor, aug, and dim chords and a simple way to visualize them on the fretboard. It has nothing to do with the b5 subs we are talking about, as it pertains to a musical concept. It's only for memorization of the fretboard.

But how the b5 subs work is because of the unstableness of the dom7 chords, and the diminished scale that they are built from plays a HUGE part in things musically.


That was what I was thinking about. He does use them for progressions though. Just look at p.7.
#29
Quote by isaac_bandits
Yeah. Coltrane changes.

*head explodes*

Seriously! I'd read about Coltrane changes and I've listened to Giant Steps, but finally it all makes goddamned sense!
#30
Quote by isaac_bandits
That was what I was thinking about. He does use them for progressions though. Just look at p.7.



That was just simple voice leading, did you notice that all of a sudden there are maj7 and m9 chords instead of the 7 and dim7 he had been working with the whole time.

BTW, I was thinking of the term used for moving all those different chords in Min3rds from the Diminished scale...

the "Min3rd sub"...but probably closer to the "Min3rd move".

But, that just essentially means play something a Min3rd away when you are on your way to the next chord.

You can carve it out anyway you want but regardless, all the possibilities are in the diminished scale and I've never found a reason to look any further since it's all there.

Try this with that Dm7-G7-Cmaj7 progression...

Play Dm7 arps for Dm7, then play Fm7 arps for G7, then tag a chord from Cmaj7 or play through the C Major scale and arp.

That Dm7->Fm7 is the "Min3rd move".

Now follow me on this...

In a Key we read about Tonic, Dominant, Dominant, Mediant, and a "Sub" level for each, even a "Super" level. Once you carve it all up you can basically say that there is Tonic and Dominant degrees and get pretty far with just that, and less thinking.

You can split Diatonic Key/chords up like this:

Tonic = I, IIIm, VIm
Dominant = IIm, IV, V, VIIm7b5

Spend some time matching up the Dominant side of the Key with the "Min3rd move" idea. Experiment, and do it freely. This is where you'll find how to connect chords in Diatonic progressions instead "play over this chord, now play over that chord, but aren't they from the same scale?" thing that goes on. It will show you how to use the notes that aren't in your scale/Key with meaning. The meaning is, "we are on our way to the next chord".

The example of the Dm7-G7-Cmaj7 shows us that Dm7 and G7 can just be thought of as "dominant" or G7, nothing more. This is what allows people to play "outside" over the entire Dm7->G7 portion of the progression...ala Joe Pass or others.

Also, learn about Cadences and how to approach each chord with its one V7 chord. You'll see a whole other side of the Diatonic teachings and how you perceive "Keys" today. (those "you"s weren't specifically pointed at "you" isaac_bandits, they were "you"s in general)
#31
mike....

good stuff...your showing the end use of symmetric harmony...yes the diminished scale and its aspects are the key to your breakdown...

this kind of thinking takes time and lots of experimentation to get under your fingers..and applying it to song structures is the key to many harmonic and melodic ideas you would never think of using standard diatonic progressions...

using these concepts and applying them to chord forms is one of the great leaps in jazz improv..

my "ah-haaa" moment was the discovery of:
Cmi6=Ami7b5=B7#5b9=F9...here the same voicing becomes minor and dominate flavored...with symmetric harmonic forces(A-C) and flat 5 substitue (B-F) dynamics available...

playing with the inversions of these chords .. the voicings open up so many ideas for basic and advanced progressions...

play well

wolf
#32
Quote by wolflen


my "ah-haaa" moment was the discovery of:
Cmi6=Ami7b5=B7#5b9=F9...here the same voicing becomes minor and dominate flavored...with symmetric harmonic forces(A-C) and flat 5 substitue (B-F) dynamics available...

playing with the inversions of these chords .. the voicings open up so many ideas for basic and advanced progressions...

play well

wolf


Understanding how those individual chords are the same form regardless of the name is a great eye opener for people. You can even think of them as subs for each other based on where your root movement or melody it. So, the name you give the chord would be based on the context.

Then realizing they all sit on the "dominant" side of a Key opens things up even further.