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#1
Is there any way to learn the modes all over the neck? I read the music theory FAQ, and it helped a bunch! But all i could figure out was the main 'position' for each mode, and I really want to spice up my improvising rather than just using a minor pentatonic. Also, are there any tips to improvising? So I get the main idea to phrasing, and contrast. But it has to have some correspondence to the chord being played over. Can anybody help a brother out? (:
#2
Well, modes are not a standalone device.

They only acts as modes melodically if the harmony is suited for it.

If you only use pentatonic, then learn the minor scale, and fiddle around with added notes at places.

Mostly though, a good harmony can make as much of a difference as the scale used.

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#3
Yeah I know, I've been fiddling with modes for a while, but I just don't know how to figure out the modes' positions all over the neck. Let alone if I can remember each single one.
#4
Play through your octaves. C-C and back to the octave, but in a different postion.
E-------------
B--------11--
G--------------
D--10---------
A--------------15
E-8------------

play the Cmaj (Ionian) between those roots, and you will find the only two patterns on the fretboard. Watch that B-string halfstep change. you can take that and play the scale up and down the fretboard, through several octaves. Just change your starting note and you will get all 7 of the modes.

Hope that helps.
#5
Well, learn the major scale all over the neck. That way, you'll know the major scale all over the neck and if you ever need to use modes, you'll be able to do so too.
#6
The modes are all relative to major scales. Just learn the major scale around the neck, and then when it is played over the right progression, you will be playing a different mode. Most songs aren't modal and you can't play modes over them.
#7
It helps if you know the notes that make up your scale/mode and know where to find them on the guitar. Don't just learn the patterns, learn the notes too. It will help you in the long run. I understand the appeal of just learning patterns, most guys start out that way, but if you plan to play guitar for a long time you'll want to spend time getting a deeper understanding of the notes that make up the pattern. It will pay off big time.
#8
Quote by iLesPaul
Is there any way to learn the modes all over the neck? I read the music theory FAQ, and it helped a bunch! But all i could figure out was the main 'position' for each mode, and I really want to spice up my improvising rather than just using a minor pentatonic. Also, are there any tips to improvising? So I get the main idea to phrasing, and contrast. But it has to have some correspondence to the chord being played over. Can anybody help a brother out? (:


I think you might realize sometime that learning modes all over the neck isn't actually what you need or want. Some "modes" are going to be more your flavor than others. I gathered you like Satriani and progresive rock and such from your profile . It's hard to say what you really want to be able to improvise over. If you're happy being able to improvise over a simple blues backing track then learning a bunch of different modes isn't necessary.

You could stick to the natural minor and minor pentatonic for that and be able to improvise over dozens of different blues/rock progressions. Start yourself out with something simple, and this is what I'd suggest first, if you're going for any type of rock improvisation to start. Later if you want to start improvising over more modal music, you can look into it then. By then you'll have at least had experience in simple techniques like tap-ons, pull offs, bends...ect, and it's much easier to connect your scale shapes when you're concentrating on just 2 variations of one scale.

The natural minor scale in G for example can be started at the 3rd fret and the 15th fret of the low E. Same goes for the minor pentatonic (5 of the 7 notes). That's a pretty far distance apart so you're gonna want to connect them somewhere inbetween. What I do is start that same box pattern at the 10th fret 5 string and make the neccesary adjustments on the B and high E. Now you have 2 variations of 1 scale shape in 3 positions reletively close enough to each othe that you can try going from one to the other and start connecting them in between. Alot of people will tell you not to just memorise box patterns so as long as you pay attention to what's going on when you're playing them.

I have a video here where I doing exactly what I just explained if you're interested. You'll see that for the first couple minutes i'm staying in the pentatonic shape when I'm on the clean chanel. Once I turn on the gain I start going back and forth from pentatonic to natural. I find it works well over that particular blues progression. The point is that this is just improvisation. What I'm doing can be, and has been, applied over many many rock chord progressions. Hope this helps.

Video (blues improve in G over backing track)
#9
Quote by JudgeDrey
I think you might realize sometime that learning modes all over the neck isn't actually what you need or want. Some "modes" are going to be more your flavor than others. I gathered you like Satriani and progresive rock and such from your profile . It's hard to say what you really want to be able to improvise over. If you're happy being able to improvise over a simple blues backing track then learning a bunch of different modes isn't necessary.

You could stick to the natural minor and minor pentatonic for that and be able to improvise over dozens of different blues/rock progressions. Start yourself out with something simple, and this is what I'd suggest first, if you're going for any type of rock improvisation to start. Later if you want to start improvising over more modal music, you can look into it then. By then you'll have at least had experience in simple techniques like tap-ons, pull offs, bends...ect, and it's much easier to connect your scale shapes when you're concentrating on just 2 variations of one scale.

The natural minor scale in G for example can be started at the 3rd fret and the 15th fret of the low E. Same goes for the minor pentatonic (5 of the 7 notes). That's a pretty far distance apart so you're gonna want to connect them somewhere inbetween. What I do is start that same box pattern at the 10th fret 5 string and make the neccesary adjustments on the B and high E. Now you have 2 variations of 1 scale shape in 3 positions reletively close enough to each othe that you can try going from one to the other and start connecting them in between. Alot of people will tell you not to just memorise box patterns so as long as you pay attention to what's going on when you're playing them.

I have a video here where I doing exactly what I just explained if you're interested. You'll see that for the first couple minutes i'm staying in the pentatonic shape when I'm on the clean chanel. Once I turn on the gain I start going back and forth from pentatonic to natural. I find it works well over that particular blues progression. The point is that this is just improvisation. What I'm doing can be, and has been, applied over many many rock chord progressions. Hope this helps.

Video (blues improve in G over backing track)


That's what i've been doing for...the past 2 years. I'm really tired of it, I just cant figure out how to add modes to my playing. Now I already knew obviously, that every mode is just the major scale with the root note and intervals shifted up. But I never really assumed that I could just the major scale for the mode (d'oh), thanks to Confusius btw. And also, I'm trying to learn Satch/fusion stuff for modal improv, like Greg Howe. And nice blues improv

Edit: And whats the difference between a modal progression and one thats not?
Last edited by iLesPaul at Dec 30, 2009,
#10
as the others have said ... learn the scales first...study diatonic harmony..

without a solid base of how the scale works - harmonized scales...modes will be a mystery always...

many players say the word "mode" and you may think it to be a mystical thing...its not..few players actually play "modal" and even when they do its not for extended lengths in a song or composition..

when you do actually learn about modes you will say....that all there is...thats what its about...

if your serious about guitar/music ... learn the fretboard...all the notes...one string a week...six week study..play the major scale on one string at a time...great way to learn note positions up and down the frets...its not rocket science...its only 12 notes

play well

wolf
Last edited by wolflen at Dec 30, 2009,
#11
Quote by iLesPaul
That's what i've been doing for...the past 2 years. I'm really tired of it, I just cant figure out how to add modes to my playing. Now I already knew obviously, that every mode is just the major scale with the root note and intervals shifted up. But I never really assumed that I could just the major scale for the mode (d'oh), thanks to Confusius btw. And also, I'm trying to learn Satch/fusion stuff for modal improv, like Greg Howe. And nice blues improv

Edit: And whats the difference between a modal progression and one thats not?


A modal progression is centered around the tonic of that mode. Naturally, the notes C D E F G A B in random orders will resolve to C, and be C major. They also fairly easily can be made to resolve to A making A minor. However, if you want it to be modal, you can't just start/end on the tonic of that mode. You have to have your progression written in such a way that it resolves to that note/chord, and contains the modal tones (the notes which differ from the parallel major/minor). This generally results in fairly simple progressions, as it is very difficult to use many chords and actually have it resolve to the right note.

To be honest, modes are fairly limiting. If you're getting bored with just major/ minor, I'd recommend to either try using accidentals more, to go through some modulations, to vary rhythmic stuff, or to add non-diatonic chords to your progressions.
#12
Quote by isaac_bandits
A modal progression is centered around the tonic of that mode. Naturally, the notes C D E F G A B in random orders will resolve to C, and be C major. They also fairly easily can be made to resolve to A making A minor. However, if you want it to be modal, you can't just start/end on the tonic of that mode. You have to have your progression written in such a way that it resolves to that note/chord, and contains the modal tones (the notes which differ from the parallel major/minor). This generally results in fairly simple progressions, as it is very difficult to use many chords and actually have it resolve to the right note.

To be honest, modes are fairly limiting. If you're getting bored with just major/ minor, I'd recommend to either try using accidentals more, to go through some modulations, to vary rhythmic stuff, or to add non-diatonic chords to your progressions.


Epic +1. The only real reason we have modes is because western music used to use something called just intonation. Its a long story, but basically, each mode was its own unique set of pitches. Today, if you play D dorian, it uses the same pitches as C major. Thats was not the case. D dorian would have used different pitches.

Thats a drastic over simplification, but its the idea.

There was actually a large movement in music and 12 TET came about and actually was what allowed composers to break OUT of modes.

As for learning modes, Ill tell you my experience with them. I can play all the modes in any key just about anywhere on the neck. Knowing them is great. But I never go into the process thinking to myself "And now I will create a song with modes." Learning the modes was more about getting familiar with patterns and the fretboard, and more importantly, learning how those altered intervals sounded and worked inside the scale.

Knowing your modes will help you start to tastefully use notes not found in the key your working with, but at the same time, they can greatly limit your playing when working exclusively out of them
#13
Quote by iLesPaul
Is there any way to learn the modes all over the neck? I read the music theory FAQ, and it helped a bunch! But all i could figure out was the main 'position' for each mode, and I really want to spice up my improvising rather than just using a minor pentatonic. Also, are there any tips to improvising? So I get the main idea to phrasing, and contrast. But it has to have some correspondence to the chord being played over. Can anybody help a brother out? (:

dont worry about that just yet. how long have you been playing? how long improv'ing? listen to eric johnson. he plays a lot of pentatonic runs but he makes them sound more interesting. dont underestimate the pentatonic scale. i have a lesson here. should be able to find it through my profile or just search in the lessons section for "pentatonic sequencesfr soloing". sequencing a scale can help with soloing because it breaks up a scale into melodic patterns. it helps with playing fast too.

the way i learned the modes and the diatonic scale was i learned the pentatonic all over the neck first. i found that from there, it was just a matter of adding two extra note. then i began to see it as just altering the pentatonic scale. i dont know if it helps, but it would take me a while to explain exactly what i did. plus, i have a feeling it might only make sense to me lol. s

start off by learning all the positions of the major scale. then apply the modal names to those positions. you can find them in pretty much any book or online. that will get you started. that will get you used to the order of the positions. from there, the modes arent that hard to remember. you just have to practice and play them and you'll get it.

most music isnt modal though. if you want to use it to add passing tones to your playing, cool. just dont think you are playing modal music. modal music needs a modal progression.
#14
Quote by iLesPaul
Is there any way to learn the modes all over the neck? I read the music theory FAQ, and it helped a bunch! But all i could figure out was the main 'position' for each mode, and I really want to spice up my improvising rather than just using a minor pentatonic. Also, are there any tips to improvising? So I get the main idea to phrasing, and contrast. But it has to have some correspondence to the chord being played over. Can anybody help a brother out? (:


Yes, there is a way to learn the modes all over the neck.

I applaud you and your commitment to learning the modes and playing the neck in all directions. I don't agree with the statements here about the relative importance to them. Knowledge is a tool, and different people will apply it how they see fit, and in a way that is relevant to them. To put it another way:

"Their opinion, does not have to become your own conviction."

As for what you are asking, for improvisation, I'd suggest a call and response, also known as a question and answer, where you phrase one section as the question, and in the next, you "answer" it melodically.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Dec 31, 2009,
#15
Modes do little to "spice up" your playing, they more of a compositional tool. There is nothing that can't be done working from the major or natural minor scales. They aren't the thing limiting your playing, it's your own creativity, experience and imagination that's the problem
Actually called Mark!

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#18
Quote by isaac_bandits
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Beat me to it..

Lmao, it's an actual magnet you put on the neck.
#19
Quote by JudgeDrey
Beat me to it..

Lmao, it's an actual magnet you put on the neck.


That seems very strange. Does it get attracted to the truss rod? Wouldn't you need special non-magnetic strings? And then wouldn't you need a piezo pickup?
#22
Quote by Sean0913
Wow I'm all for progress in teaching, but anything that resorts to pasting notes, is a step backwards from learning, in my opinion. This just goes to show how many people feel that to play lead you have to dumb it down...


I know eh? What if he's playing someone else's guitar without the stickers? Then all of a sudden he'll suck
#23
Hey guys thanks for the help, and I'm getting better at this . I just love the sound of modes put to a modal progression anyways, i.e. Joe Satriani, Greg Howe, Santana. I just need to work on my dictionary of phrasing in each mode to help improvising.
#24
Quote by iLesPaul
Hey guys thanks for the help, and I'm getting better at this . I just love the sound of modes put to a modal progression anyways, i.e. Joe Satriani, Greg Howe, Santana. I just need to work on my dictionary of phrasing in each mode to help improvising.


One way to do this is find a cool drone track and get the feel of the mode over that tonal center. check out "speedpickers" on YouTube, he has a lot of cool Pandora-like Drone tracks in a lot of keys, to experiment sonically with.
#25
Quote by Sean0913
One way to do this is find a cool drone track and get the feel of the mode over that tonal center. check out "speedpickers" on YouTube, he has a lot of cool Pandora-like Drone tracks in a lot of keys, to experiment sonically with.
Or better still make your own - that way you get some practice coming up with a modal rhythm part as well.
#26
learn the notes all over the neck
learn that modes are scales ie: a series of intervals rather than patterns
put them together and there you go
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#27
Quote by Eggmond
learn the notes all over the neck
learn that modes are scales ie: a series of intervals rather than patterns
put them together and there you go



A series of intervals is a pattern.
shred is gaudy music
#28
Quote by Sean0913
One way to do this is find a cool drone track and get the feel of the mode over that tonal center. check out "speedpickers" on YouTube, he has a lot of cool Pandora-like Drone tracks in a lot of keys, to experiment sonically with.


So a drone track is pretty much the same thing as a pedal tone with drums behind it? It says in the description "...it's like having this kind of 'progression' " . So you're supposed to switch between different modes in the same key? Or go through all the modes of the key in order (i.e. D dorian, E phyrgian, F lydian, etc over C drone track).
#29
Quote by iLesPaul
So a drone track is pretty much the same thing as a pedal tone with drums behind it? It says in the description "...it's like having this kind of 'progression' " . So you're supposed to switch between different modes in the same key? Or go through all the modes of the key in order (i.e. D dorian, E phyrgian, F lydian, etc over C drone track).


Go over all the parallel modes (Modes which share the same root) in C over a C drone track - So, C Ion, C Dorian, C phrygian, etc.
#30
Quote by GuitarMunky
A series of intervals is a pattern.


yes but meant pattern as in a box shape
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#32
Quote by Eggmond
yes but meant pattern as in a box shape



yeah, I know.

Personally, I wouldn't suggest that a person should avoid the ability to recognize patterns as they appear on the guitar neck. Anything that reinforces your knowledge ..... is a good thing.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jan 3, 2010,
#33
Quote by GuitarMunky
Personally, I wouldn't suggest that a person should avoid the ability to recognize patterns as they appear on the guitar neck. Anything that reinforces your knowledge ..... is a good thing.


Agreed. If someone can name any note on the neck in seconds, what do you do if you want to be able to improvise something at about 5 notes per second? You're gonna have to learn a pattern sometime, right?

When I first started to learn "patterns" all over the neck, it didn't limit me or "box" me in. Quite the contrary, it freed me from playing predetermined notes and solos. Of course there were gonna be limits eventually, but it started me on a path to a better understanding of why these patterns worked.
#34
Quote by JudgeDrey
Agreed. If someone can name any note on the neck in seconds, what do you do if you want to be able to improvise something at about 5 notes per second? You're gonna have to learn a pattern sometime, right?

When I first started to learn "patterns" all over the neck, it didn't limit me or "box" me in. Quite the contrary, it freed me from playing predetermined notes and solos. Of course there were gonna be limits eventually, but it started me on a path to a better understanding of why these patterns worked.


Simple challenge...

Take something that you know very well starting on the A at the 6th string, and play the lick, make it something fairly technical, use at least 3-4 strings. Time yourself, and note how smooth and easy you did it.

Now take that very same thing, and play it from the 2nd string A - (if you need to know where that is, I'll tell you, 10th fret) Play the exact same thing starting on the A there. Time yourself...you're on the fly here... Did you make mistakes, were you the same speed? Did you do it just as easily?

Were you Boxed in?

At the conclusion of that lick I want you to race straight up to the 4th string, using A (whatever scale you're in). Then race all the way back in A (whatever scale you're in) to the 2nd fret along the 4th and 5th strings ONLY.

Boxed in?
Last edited by Sean0913 at Jan 3, 2010,
#35
Quote by GuitarMunky
yeah, I know.

Personally, I wouldn't suggest that a person should avoid the ability to recognize patterns as they appear on the guitar neck. Anything that reinforces your knowledge ..... is a good thing.
+1 - patterns are great!

If you limit yourself to just learning them without understanding where they come from, then yes you are limiting yourself - but thats you and your knowledge (or lack of), not the pattern, thats the limiting factor.

imo if you want to be fluent around the neck your best bet is to use as many different methods of understanding your way around as possible - notes, intervals, patterns - don't dismiss everything, they all have their place, they can all make you look at things in a slightly different way, and add them all together and you have a pretty powerful toolset.
#36
Quote by Sean0913
Simple challenge...

Take something that you know very well starting on the A at the 6th string, and play the lick, make it something fairly technical, use at least 3-4 strings. Time yourself, and note how smooth and easy you did it.

Now take that very same thing, and play it from the 2nd string A - (if you need to know where that is, I'll tell you, 10th fret) Play the exact same thing starting on the A there. Time yourself...you're on the fly here... Did you make mistakes, were you the same speed? Did you do it just as easily?

Were you Boxed in?

At the conclusion of that lick I want you to race straight up to the 4th string, using A (whatever scale you're in). Then race all the way back in A (whatever scale you're in) to the 2nd fret along the 4th and 5th strings ONLY.

Boxed in?


What's that supposed to do? I don't really get what you were trying to say
#37
Quote by Sean0913
Simple challenge...

Take something that you know very well starting on the A at the 6th string, and play the lick, make it something fairly technical, use at least 3-4 strings. Time yourself, and note how smooth and easy you did it.

Now take that very same thing, and play it from the 2nd string A - (if you need to know where that is, I'll tell you, 10th fret) Play the exact same thing starting on the A there. Time yourself...you're on the fly here... Did you make mistakes, were you the same speed? Did you do it just as easily?

Were you Boxed in?

At the conclusion of that lick I want you to race straight up to the 4th string, using A (whatever scale you're in). Then race all the way back in A (whatever scale you're in) to the 2nd fret along the 4th and 5th strings ONLY.

Boxed in?


Sorry for the late reply, I've been kinda immersed by the Minor fourth/major fifth thread... and away from the computer for awhile.

If your challenge was understanding what i'm supposed to do then I've failed . I didn't even bother picking up my guitar.

I believe I understand what you're getting at an that's being able to play the same thing in all directions because you're following intervals instead of patterns. If I'm able to play a "fairly technical lick" on at least 3-4 strings, how would that apply to only 2 strings? And why would I want to in most cases? Patterns have given me freedom to express myself on guitar while also using logic and theory. Yes, I depend on my ear more than knowing exactly what note I'm playing ALL the time and WHY it works, but I'm working on combining both.

Let's get something straight, you're the one that is discrediting other methods, as usual and understandably as it would detract from your "holy grail" of teaching methods that brings the student to a knowledge of all notes on the fretboard, which is good, but concludes that's all he needs to improvise all over fretboard. Without being shown a pattern wouldn't the student, who's striving for some kind of speed, have to come up with some kind of pattern of his own eventually?

Furthermore...
Quote by Sean0913
(if you need to know where that is, I'll tell you, 10th fret)

I refuse to believe you were being anything but condescending and arrogant with remarks like that one.

Enough hijacking of this thread, I apologize to the TS for that.
#38
Quote by zhilla

imo if you want to be fluent around the neck your best bet is to use as many different methods of understanding your way around as possible - notes, intervals, patterns - don't dismiss everything, they all have their place, they can all make you look at things in a slightly different way, and add them all together and you have a pretty powerful toolset.


Well said


Quote by Sean0913
Simple challenge...

Take something that you know very well starting on the A at the 6th string, and play the lick, make it something fairly technical, use at least 3-4 strings. Time yourself, and note how smooth and easy you did it.

Now take that very same thing, and play it from the 2nd string A - (if you need to know where that is, I'll tell you, 10th fret) Play the exact same thing starting on the A there. Time yourself...you're on the fly here... Did you make mistakes, were you the same speed? Did you do it just as easily?

Were you Boxed in?

At the conclusion of that lick I want you to race straight up to the 4th string, using A (whatever scale you're in). Then race all the way back in A (whatever scale you're in) to the 2nd fret along the 4th and 5th strings ONLY.

Boxed in?


So what's the point of all that?
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jan 4, 2010,
#39
Quote by JudgeDrey
Sorry for the late reply, I've been kinda immersed by the Minor fourth/major fifth thread... and away from the computer for awhile.

If your challenge was understanding what i'm supposed to do then I've failed . I didn't even bother picking up my guitar.

I believe I understand what you're getting at an that's being able to play the same thing in all directions because you're following intervals instead of patterns. If I'm able to play a "fairly technical lick" on at least 3-4 strings, how would that apply to only 2 strings? And why would I want to in most cases? Patterns have given me freedom to express myself on guitar while also using logic and theory. Yes, I depend on my ear more than knowing exactly what note I'm playing ALL the time and WHY it works, but I'm working on combining both.

Let's get something straight, you're the one that is discrediting other methods, as usual and understandably as it would detract from your "holy grail" of teaching methods that brings the student to a knowledge of all notes on the fretboard, which is good, but concludes that's all he needs to improvise all over fretboard. Without being shown a pattern wouldn't the student, who's striving for some kind of speed, have to come up with some kind of pattern of his own eventually?

Furthermore...

I refuse to believe you were being anything but condescending and arrogant with remarks like that one.

Enough hijacking of this thread, I apologize to the TS for that.


It's not intending to be condescending at all. So many players are very strong with the 5th and 6th strings when it comes to "leading off" their scales and leads, but throw them to a place that's elsewhere, and they are like a fish out of water. I never established whether or not you "knew" your notes on the neck. So I wasn't trying to put you in a position where you were going to count or spell from the open B string. I see how you may have seen it as condescending, but it was never meant as such. I apologize.

Ive been explaining for a while about these limitations, but I don't think people understood what I am talking about, so I wanted to give you a real life challenge, so that by being put in that situation, you might understand that the traditional methods, nor the intervals do NOT allow for mastery over any direction on the fretboard. This is where the Caged and Box approaches scales box you in. That was the point.

By being totally free to navigate the fretboard all strings all directions, then its like walking on dry land, instead of a series of complex interconnected bridges over water.

If you want to argue that your system is adequate for your needs, that's not a problem, so then the summary of this would be, no longer are we saying that they arent boxy and limiting, but we are in effect saying, "Yes they are boxy and limited, but they suit my needs just fine." To which I'd say, to each their own.

But my analogy as stated above is accurate, versus CAGED and Box Scales. The question may be, is that relevant, since I'm the only one that thinks dry land navigation is important and a good thing.

You gotta understand, every day I see, "how do I improvise all over the neck", "What's the best way to learn ...xyz..."...and of course I have to shred my tongue from biting down it and say "Heh...well you know..." It sucks dude...I want to help but arms and hands, they are tied. Not the position I want to be in...I think some of that frustration bleeds through at times when I post.

Guitar Munky - one of your friends is a graduate of the Academy - Phrygian_12, ask him why it's important. He's a shining example of where its all brought him. Freepower, already spoke with him, and I saw on his page you're one of his friends there too.

Im not some hack, but I'm very serious about this being my life's calling to help people out there who I believe are left with some very poor options when it comes to learning. It's going to be an uphill battle all the way, and one day I hope someone responds and lets me pay to advertise here.

I'm either a liar, insane, or there's something to what I'm saying. Let your gut decide. But, I do apologize for coming across as condescending, sincerely.
Last edited by Sean0913 at Jan 4, 2010,
#40
Quote by Sean0913


Guitar Munky - one of your friends is a graduate of the Academy - Phrygian_12, ask him why it's important. He's a shining example of where its all brought him. Freepower, already spoke with him, and I saw on his page you're one of his friends there too.


Well, I'm asking you, the person that made the post. I'm not asking why it's important, I'm asking you to clarify the overall point. You asked people to go through this process as if their is a point to it....... what is that point? That should be easily explainable in a sentence or 2 right?
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jan 4, 2010,
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