#1
Hey guys i have a quick question about using a mode over a stock chord progression. I was wondering, if i had a progression that goes Bbmin, Ab, Gb, F, (All straight chords, no extensions) the only mode i could use over it would be the Aeolian mode correct? As the Aeolian Mode is the only mode with a b3rd a b6th and a b7th all of which are in the progression (b3rd in Bbmin = Db, b6th is Gb, and b7th is Ab)

So am i correct in thinking the only mode applicable is the Aeolian mode?

Thanks
"An eye for an eye, makes the whole world blind"- Mahatma Ghandi
Last edited by Dog Eat Dog at Jan 8, 2010,
#2
The "skeleton" for your solo would be the natural minor, there is nothing stopping you from playing an accidental every other note if you want, but saying that, certain accidentals can imply certain modes.

You should, in my opinion, not be focusing on a specific scale to "blanket" a progression anyway, you should be thinking of what you are actually playing over at that moment and how you can compliment it.

Edit: As GuitarMunky pointed out, it's a minor progression with a V chord, so I was incorrect to say the natural minor would be the "skeleton" for the whole thing. I didn't look at TS's progression for that long and had assumed he had already worked it out. My bad.
Last edited by MapOfYourHead at Jan 8, 2010,
#4
Quote by Dog Eat Dog
Hey guys i have a quick question about using a mode over a stock chord progression. I was wondering, if i had a progression that goes Bbmin, Ab, Gb, F, (All straight chords, no extensions) the only mode i could use over it would be the Aeolian mode correct? As the Aeolian Mode is the only mode with a b3rd a b6th and a b7th all of which are in the progression (b3rd in Bbmin = Db, b6th is Gb, and b7th is Ab)

So am i correct in thinking the only mode applicable is the Aeolian mode?

Thanks



I would suggest that the term aeolian isn't appropriate here.

it's a stock minor progression with a Major V chord. The common approach here is to use the natural minor scale and to alter the 7th over the V chord (making it the Major 3rd of the V chord)
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jan 8, 2010,
#5
Thank you for the responses.

I am trying to figure out modes and figured starting on a basic progression would be the easiest way.
Those notes that sound 'odd' would be the notes that gave that mode its certain sound if used over another progression more fitted to that mode, right?

EDIT: ^So i would need to avoid the Ab note when on the F chord or change that note to an A out of the harmonic minor scale?
"An eye for an eye, makes the whole world blind"- Mahatma Ghandi
Last edited by Dog Eat Dog at Jan 8, 2010,
#6
Bb harmonic minor will sound gd especially over the F returning to Bb min section
#7
Quote by Dog Eat Dog
Thank you for the responses.

I am trying to figure out modes and figured starting on a basic progression would be the easiest way.
Those notes that sound 'odd' would be the notes that gave that mode its certain sound if used over another progression more fitted to that mode, right?

Yes. The notes that sound 'odd' over your progression would more suit a different progression that applied that mode. The notes that sound 'odd' give the mode its colour. Other wise, it'd still be a natural minor scale instead of say a Dorian.

Those notes won't sound odd if used in the right context, you are right

EDIT: you are also right about the Ab. Minor Progressions almost always change the V chord to a major, thus implementing a Harmonic minor scale.
Last edited by mdwallin at Jan 8, 2010,
#8
The progression there is not suggestive of modal music.

It is minor and the the major V chord (F) uses the major seventh (A) in the key of B♭.

The normal approach to this would be to use the natural B♭ minor scale over the B♭m, A♭, and G♭ and the B♭ melodic minor over the F, as it is a functional V leading back to the tonic B♭m.

If you wanted to try something more "experimental" and try to push a modal melody over the progression you could try any of the parallel B♭modes (Such as B♭Dorian or B♭Phrygian) because B♭ is the root. The minor modes would be the first place to start since they would outline the B♭m triad. Just be tasteful and use your ear to determine whether it works or not. It is a riskier approach though because you are more likely to hit bum notes.

The result might not be interpreted by everyone as "modal". They may look at it as in a minor key with some accidentals, chromatic notes, false relations or whatever while other's might use modal terms to describe some of the flavours you are sprinkling in there.

There is no real rules or restriction to anything you do. Use the ideas and concepts you learn about through your studies into music as a platform to launch yourself on a musical adventure and have fun with it.

If you crash and burn occassionally (or often) don't worry everyonce in a while you'll find something amazing that blows your mind and over time it will happen more and more frequently.

Peace
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Jan 8, 2010,
#9
^Thanks for the help. It's much appreciated

EDIT: But those "bum" notes would be the notes that give that mode (eg Phrygian) the sound that it has, and there would be no modal (Phrygian) sound because the notes would sound wrong - and therefore to be avoided - over such a basic progression right?
"An eye for an eye, makes the whole world blind"- Mahatma Ghandi
Last edited by Dog Eat Dog at Jan 8, 2010,
#10
Quote by GuitarMunky
I would suggest that the term aeolian isn't appropriate here.

it's a stock minor progression with a Major V chord. The common approach here is to use the natural minor scale and to alter the 7th over the V chord (making it the Major 3rd of the V chord)


This.

Quote by Dog Eat Dog
Thank you for the responses.

I am trying to figure out modes and figured starting on a basic progression would be the easiest way.
Those notes that sound 'odd' would be the notes that gave that mode its certain sound if used over another progression more fitted to that mode, right?

EDIT: ^So i would need to avoid the Ab note when on the F chord or change that note to an A out of the harmonic minor scale?


If want to experiment with modal sounds, trying playing modes over just vamps. So loop a B♭m, and then try B♭ phrygian, aeolian, and dorian. Trying to force dorian and phrygian over a minor progression doesn't usually work well (and the ♭2 and ♮6 would function as accidentals, not as modal notes), and using aeolian over a minor chord progression will sound fine, but it would be called (natural) minor in that context.

In the typical way of playing over it, you would just play B♭ natural minor, and change things as they sound good. The A♮ will almost definitely sound better than the A♭, and you might find other notes that you like over other chords.
#11
OP, real modal music is substantially different from the music you're used to hearing, playing and writing. I don't mean subtly different, like the difference between metal and techno, I mean it's a whole different system of music. It's as if it comes from a different world, or more accurately, a different time. Just like how we speech English and a long time ago they spoke old English (a language similar to french, german and viking dialects), we play diatonic music and they play modal music. Our modern language system might have evolved from old English, but it's still substantially different.

For instance, real modal music will not have chords like you know it. The music you're used to has consciously written chord progressions, as in the composer had a chord progression in mind when writing his song. In modal music, the composer does (more accurately, did) not have chord progressions in mind. Instead, a composer would write a number of different melodies (usually 3 or 4) in counterpoint to one another. The only "chords" would be when 3 or more melodies hit a note simultaneously.

Because there were less dimensions to music, this is when modal music was needed. Although most modern musicians see modes as something akin to a key (some may say a song is in D phrygian), this is not accurate, instead modes are melody scaffolds. As in, a composer would use 4 melodies that are D phyrgian themed and (usually) each melody would start and finish on D.

Your progression cannot be described as anything modal. It is either major or minor. This is how tonal (modern music) works.

You could get a slight modal effect though by using accidentals, though. For instance, over a D minor progression you could use the accidental Eb occasionally for a slight phrygian feel. Using my old analogy, this would be like us saying "thou" and "thy" a lot in modern English, it sounds like old English but it's not. Shakespeare would scoff, as Bach would scoff at you use trying to sound modal. In the end, I'll always be speaking modern English and you'll always be playing D minor if the progression resolves to D minor.

Just what I've learnt about modes through text books and stuff, the online UG interpretation is probably different (seeing as everyone here is obsessed with modes).
        ,
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#12
demonofthenight ..

a special tip of the hat to you...on you post above...it pinpoints my fustration with MT and the mode obsession....no..modes are not a mystical experience...

thanks for you insights....

play well

wolf
#13
I don't think MT is necessarily obsessed with modes, it's more that people who don't understand them ask a hell of a lot of questions about them

Most of the regulars understand them perfectly and will happily point people in the right direction, steering them away from modes if they're not in a position to understand them yet.
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#14
Quote by steven seagull
I don't think MT is necessarily obsessed with modes, it's more that people who don't understand them ask a hell of a lot of questions about them

Most of the regulars understand them perfectly and will happily point people in the right direction, steering them away from modes if they're not in a position to understand them yet.
I'd agree with that. In fact the majority of questions about 'modes' that come up aren't even about modes at all - they are just people trying to learn the major scale who have used one of the many lessons that refers to the 3nps major scale patterns by modal names
#15
Quote by steven seagull
Most of the regulars understand them perfectly...

perfectly

Here is where 99% of the problems lie.
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[U]        | |                     [/U]
[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
        |
        L.
#16
Quote by demonofthenight
Here is where 99% of the problems lie.



Well to take your linguistics analogy.

You use words like "yo" right?

Slang and such.

You use it, but you won't call someone out on them, or say, z0mg that's not real english dude!


But people saying for example "yo" will at tests or formal stuff use the word "hello" or "sincere".


In context, the regulars know them, but they play around with them, discuss them, and maybe even use the terms as "slang", but when truly in a educational setting, we agree.


I mean, how many regulars so far have disapproved with ur reply on real modal music? None right?

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