#1
Hey,

I'm about to do another grade of theory, so I got the book and this has come up:

Intervals can also be classified as concords - those which sound satisfying in themselves - or as discords - those which require another interval or chord to follow them.

Perfect Concords: Perfect 4th, Perfect 5th, Perfect 8ve
Imperfect Concords: minor 3rd, Maj 3rd, min 6th, Maj 6th

Discords: Maj 2nd, min 2nd, Aug 2nd, dim 3rd, arg 3rd, dim 4th, aug 4th, dim 5th, aug 5th, dim 6th, aug 6th, Maj 7th, min 7th, dim 7th, dim 8ve.


BUT, don't intervals like Aug 2nd and aug 5th or many of the intervals in the 'discord' section SOUND like the intervals in the concord section? Hence, still sound 'satisfying'?

So, I have come to the conclusion that it is not about how they sound, but how they are written. But, now I don't get how you distinguish between a concord and a discord interval.

and no.. It is not the same as dissonant and consonant, because that IS about the sound.

I'm very confused, and I don't see my teacher for another week and a half, as it's holidays here in Aus.
#2
Perhaps on their own they sound okay but maybe with overlaying chords they don't sound so great.

The perhaps, and maybe should stress how unsure i am but that's my 2 cents.
#4
Quote by mdwallin
Hey,

I'm about to do another grade of theory, so I got the book and this has come up:


BUT, don't intervals like Aug 2nd and aug 5th or many of the intervals in the 'discord' section SOUND like the intervals in the concord section? Hence, still sound 'satisfying'?

So, I have come to the conclusion that it is not about how they sound, but how they are written. But, now I don't get how you distinguish between a concord and a discord interval.

and no.. It is not the same as dissonant and consonant, because that IS about the sound.

I'm very confused, and I don't see my teacher for another week and a half, as it's holidays here in Aus.


It's about context, the interval of an augmented 2nd between the 6 and 7th degrees of the harmonic minor scale needs a resolution. While the interval from the tonic to the mediant would not, even though there are enharmonically the same interval.
#5
Quote by griffRG7321
It's about context, the interval of an augmented 2nd between the 6 and 7th degrees of the harmonic minor scale needs a resolution. While the interval from the tonic to the mediant would not, even though there are enharmonically the same interval.

but if they are just on their own. Like in these work sheets... how do I know? Basically these worksheets show an interval, then ask what it is and whether it is concord or discord... It is silly. AMEB music theory is so confusing. You know they refered to harmonic minor as just minor for the first 4 grades? that is dumb!
#6
Quote by mdwallin
but if they are just on their own. Like in these work sheets... how do I know? Basically these worksheets show an interval, then ask what it is and whether it is concord or discord... It is silly. AMEB music theory is so confusing. You know they refered to harmonic minor as just minor for the first 4 grades? that is dumb!


It is how they are written, an augmented 2nd would be for example C-D#. That would be a discord. But C-Eb would not.

Where i live we have ABRSM Theory and you learn about all 3 minor scales in grade 2 i think. Up to grade 5 covers cadences progressions and scales and then 6-8 is pretty much composition, like knowing figured bass, modulations, complex progressions, writing melodies and answering questions about scores.
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Jan 10, 2010,
#7
^ im gonna agree with Griff, it looks like its just how the intervals are presented independently
#8
Hmm.. That is annoying!

So if they look odd, but really are just normal... They are discord? Also if they are a tritone, 2nd, or 7th?

I think I may kind of get it.

I wish ABRSM would do theory here too. We just get the Jazz exams.
#9
Quote by mdwallin
Hmm.. That is annoying!

So if they look odd, but really are just normal... They are discord? Also if they are a tritone, 2nd, or 7th?

I think I may kind of get it.

I wish ABRSM would do theory here too. We just get the Jazz exams.

Well, if an interval was written as G A# (aug2) instead of G Bb (m3) then it implies that the interval is not going to be used as a cossonant/diatonic interval but instead as a dissonant one (like the Augmented second in harmonic minor). So you are given an implied context just by how the notes are written.
#10
Keeping in mind, those intervals mdwallin listed are only consonant and dissonant harmonically. Different rules apply for melodic intervals.

Quote by mdwallin
BUT, don't intervals like Aug 2nd and aug 5th or many of the intervals in the 'discord' section SOUND like the intervals in the concord section? Hence, still sound 'satisfying'?

Not really. Consider it like this, if an augmented 2nd CAN exist, it means that a minor third does not exist. This means you're going out of key or against the harmony by using the augmented 2nd instead of the major third. It is therefore dissonant, especially since a third is almost always occurring somewhere harmonically (very few chord voicings omit the third) and therefore the augmented second will clash with a third.

For instance, take an X7#2 chord in it's traditional guitar voicing (for D7#2, x54567) The F# clashes with the E# (lol at the noob that's thinking right now "no such thing as E#"), causing an obvious dissonance.

Quote by mdwallin
So, I have come to the conclusion that it is not about how they sound, but how they are written. But, now I don't get how you distinguish between a concord and a discord interval.
I... don't understand. Please explain.
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#11
Quote by demonofthenight
Keeping in mind, those intervals mdwallin listed are only consonant and dissonant harmonically. Different rules apply for melodic intervals.


Not really. Consider it like this, if an augmented 2nd CAN exist, it means that a minor third does not exist. This means you're going out of key or against the harmony by using the augmented 2nd instead of the major third. It is therefore dissonant, especially since a third is almost always occurring somewhere harmonically (very few chord voicings omit the third) and therefore the augmented second will clash with a third.

For instance, take an X7#2 chord in it's traditional guitar voicing (for D7#2, x54567) The F# clashes with the E# (lol at the noob that's thinking right now "no such thing as E#"), causing an obvious dissonance.

I... don't understand. Please explain.


This doesn't really have anything to do with physical consonance or dissonance, though. An augmented 2nd and minor 3rd sound exactly the same. Exactly. One is not more dissonant than the other. There isn't a context given, so saying it goes 'out of key' or 'against the harmony' doesn't apply.

I agree that the point is, the intervals are implying a specific harmony. Like was said above, an augmented second and a minor third sounding the same, but the augmented second implies the space between the 6th and 7th in a harmonic minor scale.
#12
Quote by timeconsumer09
An augmented 2nd and minor 3rd sound exactly the same. Exactly.
But if something CAN be described as an augmented seconds instead of being described as a minor third, it means it will clash with something or be out of key.

Sure. If you played a D and E# at the same time it will sound exactly the same as if you played a D and an F at the same time, but when you're actually analysing a song I swear to god that E# will almost always cause dissonance in almost any context.
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#13
Quote by timeconsumer09
An augmented 2nd and minor 3rd sound exactly the same. Exactly.


Not on the experimental instrument I'm building! An augmented second will be 264 cents (a meantone stand-in for a subminor third) and a minor third will be 312 cents.

But yes, normally they're the same (they just function differently, but this thread deals with the question of musical context or the absence thereof).


Never mind me...carry on.
#14
ah, I think I kind of get what you guys are saying by 'implied context'.

But, what would a diminished 6th clash with? and what if the chord was Xmin#2, then the augmented second wouldn't clash with the third...

don't worry guys, I will read through the posts a few more times each, and hopefully figure it out. If not, I can just memorise what is/n't discord or concord.
#15
Quote by mdwallin
But, what would a diminished 6th clash with?
Fifth of a diminished chord.
Quote by mdwallin
and what if the chord was Xmin#2, then the augmented second wouldn't clash with the third...
What? I don't think such a chord could possibly exist in 12-tet...
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#16
Quote by mdwallin

But, what would a diminished 6th clash with? and what if the chord was Xmin#2, then the augmented second wouldn't clash with the third...

You can't have a minor chord with a #9.
They are the same note!

If a major 3rd is present, then the note would become a #9.