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#1
I know there are lots of threads on the subject, but I've had an idea regarding the problem that councils have in as much as they do not have much grit left.

I watched the news this morning on BBC 1 and on it, the newsreader stated that new deliveris of grit were going to take a long time. Im looking out of my window and I have been around my town center and I can safely say that not much has been done. Only some of the main roads have been gritted and all the side roads remain close to unpassable. None of the footpaths have been cleared.

One main road was closed off completely because it could not be cleared of snow and ice. The council has run out of grit. The main roads have been ice free for a day and that is due to the cars and buses driving on them for the past week. The footpaths are still slippery almost everywhere and no attempt has been made at anytime by anyone to clear them. Mainly because the council has no grit or man power to clear the footpaths. The same is true in London where my parents live. Not that Ive been home since the snow started.

I have a solution though... I have a friend who is the most bone idle, lazy son of a bitch on Earth who has this sense of entitlement. He hasnt worked a day in his life and refuses to get a job. His parents are wealthy, he lives at home and he pays no rent or bills. He gets job seekers allowance and is driven everywhere. He is 25.

There are lots of people who do not want to work and are on job seekers allowance or are just chavs who have had a load of kids and refuse to work. (Lets leave the people who cant find work or who lost their jobs out of this). There are also lots of people who are on probation or some kind of community service.

My solution is simple. The next time we have a huge snowfall that causes Britian to grind to a halt, give the bone idle shovels and make them clear the footpaths. If they refuse, stop their benefits for a month. Give shovels to those on probation or doing community service and make them clear the footpaths and roads. If they refuse, put them prison for a week or increase their community service period.

Does something like this already happen? Or is this solution unworkable? Discuss.
Sat in a lab, curing diseases. They actually LET me play with chemicals!
#4
I'm all for forced labour actually. Works for china!
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#5
Why stop when the snow has gone - make the clear rubbish etc all year round.

I'd vote for it.
#6
Quote by ChucklesMginty
And how often does that happen exactly?



Ter be fair, it happened last year in London, and it's happening again now.

Quote by mark_wuk
Why stop when the snow has gone - make the clear rubbish etc all year round.

I'd vote for it.



Hello, my name is Community Service, and I already do that.
Last edited by webbtje at Jan 10, 2010,
#7
Quote by ChucklesMginty
And how often does that happen exactly?


... Twice in two years.

There really is no excuse for it considering we have pretty accurate weather forecasts. There should have been more preparation for the bad weather.

Quote by webbtje
Lulz, go forced labour.


I wouldnt call it forced.

I would call it slightly encouraged labour.
Sat in a lab, curing diseases. They actually LET me play with chemicals!
Last edited by Guitardude19 at Jan 10, 2010,
#8
It's a good idea, for the people who want to get paid I guess.
But then again, you don't wanty to be forced into it. A few days ago on the news they showed a Canadian man who's lived her for ten years and was complaining because in Canada you're required by law to clear snow off your driveway, and saying that this should be enforced in Britain also. What? It snows like once a year (or less)
wen i ask they say that they fall into the habit smhw ........but nyways i think there is a connection smwhere. Now i being a teetollar will not give into this habit nyhw

FOR JUST £2 A WEEK, YOU CAN PREVENT THIS.
#9
Quote by webbtje
Hello, my name is Community Service, and I already do that.


Since when do they make people who are too lazy to get jobs and live off benefits do community service?
#11
Quote by mark_wuk
Since when do they make people who are too lazy to get jobs and live off benefits do community service?



They don't, they make offenders do it, darling. Having a few people on the dole clearing up the snow is going to make fuck all difference. How many people do you think it would take to clear up all the country roads? We have enough trouble clearing up A roads in cities, let alone the whole country. A few hundred people doing a half-arsed job ain't going to help, never mind that a lot of single mums and so on literally can't get jobs.
#12
problem is that you're putting them at risk by making them go out on the ice.

you'd have to provide safety equipment (boots, gloves, hi-vis jackets etc) and you'd have to have insurance in case they injured themselves. Then you'd have the ones which would purposefully say they've injured themselves, the ones who are getting the money to support their kids because they can't get daycare facilities in order to get a job, the ones who are on disability benefits etc.

if you make it an official job to give to people on jobseekers then you have to face all the costs surround employing someone and the rights/responsibilities that come with it.

it's a decent idea in theory but making it work wouldn't be so easy.

Quote by Guitardude19
... Twice in two years.

There really is no excuse for it considering we have pretty accurate weather forecasts. There should have been more preparation for the bad weather.


it takes longer to prepare for cold weather than we can forecast reliably. People would moan about wasted public funds if we prepared for a rare event such as this.

I've seen people writing into the paper moaning about how Scandinavian don't grind to a halt when they get a lot more snow than us, and that purely because they're used to it and have to have the infrastructure otherwise their country wouldn't be able to function at all.
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
Last edited by Lemoninfluence at Jan 10, 2010,
#13
Quote by el-ECTRO
It's a good idea, for the people who want to get paid I guess.
But then again, you don't wanty to be forced into it. A few days ago on the news they showed a Canadian man who's lived her for ten years and was complaining because in Canada you're required by law to clear snow off your driveway, and saying that this should be enforced in Britain also. What? It snows like once a year (or less)

So? It doesn't snow a whole lot here either (maybe a foot to 1.5 feet a season), but we're still required by law to clear the sidewalks of snow and ice, however little there may be.
#14
Prison is completely unnecessary. Just hold back on their incomes untill they do community service. The lazy bastards will be forced to work this way and the people actually looking for a job probably wouldn't mind, since they basicly get paid for doing something everyone bennefits from.
If you don't want to work, that's an option too. You won't get welfare support though, obviously.
#15
Quote by basilbrush
Prison is completely unnecessary. Just hold back on their incomes untill they do community service. The lazy bastards will be forced to work this way and the people actually looking for a job probably wouldn't mind, since they basicly get paid for doing something everyone bennefits from.
If you don't want to work, that's an option too. You won't get welfare support though, obviously.



Right, so what if you literally cannot find a job? What if you have a disability? What if you're a single mum with young kids? Is it really justifiable to let lazy people starve and go homeless? Get some perspective instead of rattling out Mail-isms, please.
#16
Quote by webbtje
They don't, they make offenders do it, darling. Having a few people on the dole clearing up the snow is going to make fuck all difference. How many people do you think it would take to clear up all the country roads? We have enough trouble clearing up A roads in cities, let alone the whole country. A few hundred people doing a half-arsed job ain't going to help, never mind that a lot of single mums and so on literally can't get jobs.


The A Roads in the cities were cleared by the council. Well at least here where I live they were. They just left the B roads. Also, I didnt say that single mums or those who are unable to get jobs should be the ones doing it. Just the bone idle people who cant be bothered... Like my 25 year old friend and those who live on benefits like its a living almost. I also wouldnt expect country roads to be cleared by these people. Id expect that B roads leading to major A roads leading to town centers and town center footpaths be cleared by them. Logistically it seems huge but if this was implements via a staged plan it would work.

Council clears A roads.

Major B roads and footpaths leading to A roads cleared by the those who I mentioned.

Minor B roads left last.

I think it would at least help to ease the strain that the councils are under at the moment.

Quote by Lemoninfluence
problem is that you're putting them at risk by making them go out on the ice.

you'd have to provide safety equipment (boots, gloves, hi-vis jackets etc) and you'd have to have insurance in case they injured themselves. Then you'd have the ones which would purposefully say they've injured themselves, the ones who are getting the money to support their kids because they can't get daycare facilities in order to get a job, the ones who are on disability benefits etc.

if you make it an official job to give to people on jobseekers then you have to face all the costs surround employing someone and the rights/responsibilities that come with it.

it's a decent idea in theory but making it work wouldn't be so easy.


I agree with all of what you said here.


Quote by Lemoninfluence
it takes longer to prepare for cold weather than we can forecast reliably. People would moan about wasted public funds if we prepared for a rare event such as this.


Having a stockpile of grit in those yellow grit boxes wouldnt cost so much. The grit that is used is rocksalt and is cheaper than people think. We only have a shortage because we havent had a need for it in recent years and councils havent stockpiled much of the stuff. Im pretty sure that there are salt mines/storage facilites etc where this stuff used to be kept. Where I lived in London ten years ago, there were lots of yellow boxes full of grit. Now there are hardly any. If those were kept as full and left alone, they'd still be useable now surely?

Quote by Lemoninfluence
I've seen people writing into the paper moaning about how Scandinavian don't grind to a halt when they get a lot more snow than us, and that purely because they're used to it and have to have the infrastructure otherwise their country wouldn't be able to function at all.


That is all true and I wouldnt expect the UK to have a system such as that.
Sat in a lab, curing diseases. They actually LET me play with chemicals!
Last edited by Guitardude19 at Jan 10, 2010,
#17
Quote by Guitardude19
*speculation*



You know how many roads there are around, say, Bristol alone?
#18
Quote by Guitardude19
Also, I didnt say that single mums or those who are unable to get jobs should be the ones doing it. Just the bone idle people who cant be bothered... Like my 25 year old friend and those who live on benefits like its a living almost.

if councils could distinguish who was just bone idle and who was genuinely unable to get a job, they wouldn't give the bone idle benefits would they?
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#19
Big problem number 1

When these so-called "lazy" people do a bad job (if they are lazy, they in all probability will) then there will still be patches of ice. If/when someone falls on this they may decide to sue. The person they sue will be the "lazy" person.

That's why the councils won't supply grit to your average joe to do his own bit of path.

Don't let your boat be empty, don't be a sunken dream
Don't let the boat regret thee, for what you could have seen

Last edited by Blayney at Jan 10, 2010,
#20
Quote by Lemoninfluence
if councils could distinguish who was just bone idle and who was genuinely unable to get a job, they wouldn't give the bone idle benefits would they?


Again true, but there are things the job centre/councils can do to people who consistently refuse work. They do stop benefits for people who for no real or good cause refuse to work. It happened to my friend, so he got a job for three months, quit and went back on job seekers. He is still "looking" for work, even though he doesnt want a job. If he shows he is looking for work and doesnt get a job, he'll get the benefits.

Quote by webbtje
You know how many roads there are around, say, Bristol alone?


Loads. Just like any major towns. Like the one I live in. I can see how complex this would be and how many man hours it would require and the amount of people. I still think its worth discussing as it makes an interesting debate.
Sat in a lab, curing diseases. They actually LET me play with chemicals!
Last edited by Guitardude19 at Jan 10, 2010,
#21
I think one of the main downfalls on use of grit is, if you watch the grit-mobiles (I'll call them what I want ), they distribute it in such a way that you get a large lump of grit trailing straight down the middle of each side of the road. Yes, in between the fucking tyres. Why on earth cant they make more efficient machines? In conclusion, make your lazy friend design an efficient grit-mobile.
Call me Matthew.
Last edited by Masshuu at Jan 10, 2010,
#22
We should make winter vehicle tyres or snow chains a legal responsibility like the rest of the world and only grit footpaths.

Even then a proper pair of boots and a walking pole and you're sorted.

I wonder how much we're spending on grit and how many winter tyres we could get with it.
#23
I haven't fell over once yet. If your retarded enough to not notice and then slip on ice then i don't think you should be trusted with a shovel.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#24
I'm on job seekers right now but I don't want to be.. It's boring as shit.. Not all of us are bone idle fuckers.
#25
Quote by Bearded_Seth
I'm on job seekers right now but I don't want to be.. It's boring as shit.. Not all of us are bone idle fuckers.


Hence why I differentiated by saying "those who do not want to work." Like my friend in the OP.

Ive been on job seekers as well. I know what its like, but there are some people who go on it just because they dont want to work. I did not mean offence to genuine people.
Sat in a lab, curing diseases. They actually LET me play with chemicals!
#26
Quote by Guitardude19
Hence why I differentiated by saying "those who do not want to work." Like my friend in the OP.

Ive been on job seekers as well. I know what its like, but there are some people who go on it just because they dont want to work. I did not mean offence to genuine people.


Fair play to you then...

I'd say get onto the council to get better grit-mobiles.. The road is where it's needed the most. I clear out my own garden by covering it in salt and shovelling that crap up every couple of days.. Tis good exercise.
#27
Quote by Dirge Humani
So? It doesn't snow a whole lot here either (maybe a foot to 1.5 feet a season), but we're still required by law to clear the sidewalks of snow and ice, however little there may be.


Yes but you've got to realise up until last year we usually got a slither of snow, or maybe not at all every year for a week at the most. That has been happening for the past 20-40 years. We haven't seen anything like this in a long time and so it would be a waste of public resources to prepare for such an event.
#28
I always love when people moan about there not being enough salt, when it doesn't do a bloody thing when it's below about -5ºC
You're using UG classic, congratulations.
You should be using UG classic.




E-Married to Guitar0Player

http://the llama forum because its gone forever which sucks and I hate it.
#29
Quote by jgbsmith
I always love when people moan about there not being enough salt, when it doesn't do a bloody thing when it's below about -5ºC



And also that unfortunate thing that when it gets wet it's completely fucking useless.
#30
Quote by webbtje
And also that unfortunate thing that when it gets wet it's completely fucking useless.

yeah.. I always laugh when people put it one snow, which is so so so ****ing stupid, cos it just melts the snow, which then freezes as.. ice. dum****s.
You're using UG classic, congratulations.
You should be using UG classic.




E-Married to Guitar0Player

http://the llama forum because its gone forever which sucks and I hate it.
#31
Are people allowed to use snow chains in the UK or will PC plod tell you off for it?
Looking to buy a Fender Jagstang, u sellin?
#32
The point of Jobseekers allowance is that you get it while seeking employment. If they are employed clearing the roads then they can't seek employment.
However, if you were willing to pay them minimum wage and fit health and safety requirements then this could work. I wouldn't be comfortable with forcing people into it to be honest, it just wouldn't be workable like that.


In Ireland the schools are closed till Thursday at least, so the teachers have all volunteered to help clear the roads and paths etc. Good on them, particularly as they are helping out a government who recently cut their wages for no good reason.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#33
Quote by jgbsmith
I always love when people moan about there not being enough salt, when it doesn't do a bloody thing when it's below about -5ºC


Actually, depending on the concentration, you can create ice water that is down at -20 degrees... I know this because as a synthetic organic chemist, the past three months Ive been using ice/salt water bath for my reactions down as low as -30.

Fine, you wont want to put THAT much salt down on the ground, but the principle works.

Quote by Ur all $h1t
The point of Jobseekers allowance is that you get it while seeking employment. If they are employed clearing the roads then they can't seek employment.


I agree, that is true.

Quote by Ur all $h1t
However, if you were willing to pay them minimum wage and fit health and safety requirements then this could work. I wouldn't be comfortable with forcing people into it to be honest, it just wouldn't be workable like that.


There would have to be some kind of incentive. It wouldnt be unpaid. Its just that if they refuse, there should be some kind of punishment.


Quote by Ur all $h1t
In Ireland the schools are closed till Thursday at least, so the teachers have all volunteered to help clear the roads and paths etc. Good on them, particularly as they are helping out a government who recently cut their wages for no good reason.


My brothers school is open this week I think.
Sat in a lab, curing diseases. They actually LET me play with chemicals!
Last edited by Guitardude19 at Jan 10, 2010,
#34
If %1 of you brits who are going on about this weather would spend half an hour outdoors with a shovel you wouldn't have much to complain about anymore.
We're only strays.
#35
Quote by Guitardude19
... Twice in two years.

There really is no excuse for it considering we have pretty accurate weather forecasts. There should have been more preparation for the bad weather.


I wouldnt call it forced.

I would call it slightly encouraged labour.


Hmm, you seem to fail to notice the difference between 'does' and 'did'
It snowed twice in 2 years in England on a level where it's a bit of an issue.
This is the only time in my life time that this has happened.

'does' suggests natural/usually occurs.
'did' is past simple.

It probably won't happen again.
Been in Japan since August, no fucking money left!
#36
Quote by GaijinFoot
Hmm, you seem to fail to notice the difference between 'does' and 'did'
It snowed twice in 2 years in England on a level where it's a bit of an issue.
This is the only time in my life time that this has happened.

'does' suggests natural/usually occurs.
'did' is past simple.

It probably won't happen again.


I remember snowfalls like this in the early to mid '90s in England and my parents remember snowfall in their childhood that is worse than what we've experienced.

With climate change, we cant be too sure about the what our weather patterns will be. I cant remember where I read it, but I read somewhere that as global temperatures rise, the polar ice caps will melt and decrease the salinity of the atlantic ocean. This reduces the gulf stream which lowers the winter temperature for Europe. The gulf stream is what keeps europe from freezing over.

Im not saying that its certain, but you cant deny that there needs to be some kind of contingency just in case.
Sat in a lab, curing diseases. They actually LET me play with chemicals!
#37
Quote by Guitardude19
I agree, that is true.


There would have to be some kind of incentive. It wouldnt be unpaid. Its just that if they refuse, there should be some kind of punishment.


I think that it misses the point of welfare though, and it's based on the largely flawed "daily mail style" assumption that most, or even many, people on welfare are doing nothing else. I mean, where is the benefit in punishing people who refuse? How do you distinguish between the person who genuinely is "lazy welfare scum" and the genuine jobseeker or the single mum who can't afford to go out helping the relief effort because she needs a job built around her kid? Attempting to make that distinction alone would cost a lot of money and time, nevermind the money that then has to be spent administering punishment of some sort.
Then you have the moral implications for a government, and society in general, punishing people for effectively not doing what you say because you someone feel justified in forcing them into work because they are on welfare, despite the fact that some, or even many, may be in that position because of the way our society is set up (the necessity of a reserve army of labour to keep capitalism running) and/or a lack of government provisions to help them earlier on (deficits in social work programmes, education programmes etc).

I would certianly be behind a scheme where there are incentives for those able to do this work to do it, because no doubt some people are finding that they have to suspend their jobseeking due to the weather, but punishing those who can't seems to me to have moral and practical problems with it that I really wouldn't be comfortable with.
Still though, this is the kind of thinking governments need to do, instead of worrying about how to claim more expenses for themselves.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#38
Quote by Guitardude19
Actually, depending on the concentration, you can create ice water that is down at -20 degrees... I know this because as a synthetic organic chemist, the past three months Ive been using ice/salt water bath for my reactions down as low as -30.

Fine, you wont want to put THAT much salt down on the ground, but the principle works.

In principle, certainly, but the salt water solution would be nowhere near saturated when you salt the roads, and i utterly useless, not to mention harmful to everything. They should spread small stones instead. That would actually work.
You're using UG classic, congratulations.
You should be using UG classic.




E-Married to Guitar0Player

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#39
Quote by Ur all $h1t
I think that it misses the point of welfare though, and it's based on the largely flawed "daily mail style" assumption that most, or even many, people on welfare are doing nothing else.


Your statement is true, however, I do not believe that everyone on welfare is lazy scum. Only a few are.

Quote by Ur all $h1t
I mean, where is the benefit in punishing people who refuse? How do you distinguish between the person who genuinely is "lazy welfare scum" and the genuine jobseeker or the single mum who can't afford to go out helping the relief effort because she needs a job built around her kid? Attempting to make that distinction alone would cost a lot of money and time, nevermind the money that then has to be spent administering punishment of some sort.


The benefit would be that they do the work for a wage. It would be very hard to distinguish between those who are genuine and those who are not, which is why in my OP I said that the genuine people would not be asked to fulfil this role. I do agree that in the real world that it is very difficult to distinguish between the genuine and non-genuine people. I do agree that this would also be costly.


Quote by Ur all $h1t
Then you have the moral implications for a government, and society in general, punishing people for effectively not doing what you say because you someone feel justified in forcing them into work because they are on welfare, despite the fact that some, or even many, may be in that position because of the way our society is set up (the necessity of a reserve army of labour to keep capitalism running) and/or a lack of government provisions to help them earlier on (deficits in social work programmes, education programmes etc).


I do not like the idea of a government forcing people to work that they cannot do, for example those who are not able to and need welfare, such single mothers and disabled people etc. The problem I have is that I cannot reconcile the fact that a system that I have proposed would not be fool proof, and by that I mean someone being punished for not doing the work that they have been asked to do when they are not in the situation that enables them to do so.

Quote by Ur all $h1t
I would certianly be behind a scheme where there are incentives for those able to do this work to do it, because no doubt some people are finding that they have to suspend their jobseeking due to the weather, but punishing those who can't seems to me to have moral and practical problems with it that I really wouldn't be comfortable with.
Still though, this is the kind of thinking governments need to do, instead of worrying about how to claim more expenses for themselves.


The bolded part is something that I cannot reconcile because no system is foolproof and some people could be wrongfully punished or put in a harder financial situation.
Sat in a lab, curing diseases. They actually LET me play with chemicals!
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