#1
Are there any uses for a chord like BDFA# (Bm b5 maj7) and any songs with it? Just curious.
#3
It almost makes more sense to call it a maj7#9 to me.

Edit: Nevermind that doesn't work.

Quote by metaladdict123
what? do you mean a Bmb5 and a Bmaj7
He means a chord that goes 1 b3 b5 7. Basically a B° with a major 7 instead of a bb7.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Jan 10, 2010,
#5
Quote by food1010
It almost makes more sense to call it a maj7#9 to me.

Edit: Nevermind that doesn't work.

He means a chord that goes 1 b3 b5 7. Basically a B° with a major 7 instead of a bb7.


oh ok
#6
could you call it Bmin (b5 #7)

but since it has 1 b3 b5 its a diminshed traid with a maj 7
Last edited by metaladdict123 at Jan 10, 2010,
#7
Quote by metaladdict123
could you call it Bmin (b5 #7)
Yeah except you wouldn't call it a #7 seeing as a sharp 7 is enharmonic to the root. It's just a natural 7, or a maj7.

It could be a maj7#9#11. If you were to call it that, a rather simple voicing would be x21331, barring the first fret.

This chord would be a suitable sub-dominant chord. I might start using this actually.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Jan 10, 2010,
#8
Quote by food1010
Yeah except you wouldn't call it a #7 seeing as a sharp 7 is enharmonic to the root. It's just a natural 7, or a maj7.

It could be a maj7#9#11.


i edited the last one but could it be a diminshed triad 1 b3 b5 with a maj7
#9
If you take the A# as the root it will be an (add b9) chord.

A dom7(b9) is a common altered chord for the V in a minor jazz song, So you could probably do something with that. if the B is the root, you could just say it's in inversion.
Last edited by MapOfYourHead at Jan 10, 2010,
#10
Quote by metaladdict123
i edited the last one but could it be a diminshed triad 1 b3 b5 with a maj7



Quote by food1010


He means a chord that goes 1 b3 b5 7. Basically a B° with a major 7 instead of a bb7.



To TS;

Because of the strong maj7 sound (M3 and natural (M)7 intervals), the b5 will most likely act as a #4, and thus become a Xmaj7#11 (no5th).

This would Imply a Lydian type of sound.

The use is to imply a #4 interval which is enharmonic to a b5 over a major setting instead of a minor setting like in diminished chords.

The use of the chord itself? It's just a chord with another sound, for different aesthetics, not necessarily for progressive function.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 10, 2010,
#11
Quote by xxdarrenxx
To TS;

Because of the strong maj7 sound (M3 and natural (M)7 intervals), the b5 will most likely act as a #4, and thus become a Xmaj7#11 (no5th).


Common for Lydian stuff.

The use is to imply a #4 interval which is enharmonic to a b5 over a major setting instead of a minor setting like in diminished chords.
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I kinda thought I was just taking a stab in the dark, but I guess I wasn't so far off after all.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
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#12
if you harmonize your minor and major scale in 7th's instead of triads usually your diminished you will use a min7b5
song stuck in my head today


#13
Quote by lbc_sublime
if you harmonize your minor and major scale in 7th's instead of triads usually your diminished you will use a min7b5
That confused me at first, but now I see what you're saying. If you play a tetrad with the leading tone as the root in a diatonic major progression, it'll be a half-diminished (m7b5) chord.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#14
Quote by food1010
That confused me at first, but now I see what you're saying. If you play a tetrad with the leading tone as the root in a diatonic major progression, it'll be a half-diminished (m7b5) chord.



yeah i am not quite sure what you mean by the leading tone as the root.

usually the leading tone is the 7th degree for a major progression, and in the minor situation the 1/2dinmished chord becomes the supertonic i believe.

usually it is

triad harmonization for major

major minor minor major major minor diminished

harmonization in 7ths for major

major7, minor7, minor7, major7, dominant7, minor7, 1/2 diminshed(min7b5)

i am sure you can get minor out of this
song stuck in my head today


#15
Quote by xxdarrenxx
To TS;

Because of the strong maj7 sound (M3 and natural (M)7 intervals), the b5 will most likely act as a #4, and thus become a Xmaj7#11 (no5th).

This would Imply a Lydian type of sound.

The use is to imply a #4 interval which is enharmonic to a b5 over a major setting instead of a minor setting like in diminished chords.

The use of the chord itself? It's just a chord with another sound, for different aesthetics, not necessarily for progressive function.


The D is the minor third of B, not the major. The chords sound doesn't imply anything lydian.

It's a Bmb5maj7 chord and can be used as a passing chord or a dominant. It could also be enharmonic to a Bb7b9 but having the b9 in the bass seems a bit weird.
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Jan 10, 2010,
#17
I'm not convinced this will be of interest, but it seems relevant. In the jazz theory book, Levine claims that often when voicing a fully diminished chord jazz players choose to add another note from the diminished scale in place of a chord tone to make it sound more dissonant, so then it seems that this chord could be used as a Bdim7 chord.

And if you think that's rubbish, imagine that another instrument plays an Eb. So that seems like a use for is TS, if you particularly like the sound.
#18
It seems just like an enharmonic spelling of a B♭add♭9. I guess you could use it for a phrygian dominant kind of sound.
Last edited by isaac_bandits at Jan 11, 2010,
#19
It's an Augminished chord!!!

I seem to remember deciding it was much easier calling it a Bb(b9) = Bb D F Ab
I have seen that chord, but can't think of a context.

EDIT: i have never seen the Bm b5 maj7 variant written though
EDIT2: In this here real book i can see plenty of X7b9 but none without the 7ths - any spots anyone?
EDIT3: thought i had it, turns out i can't tell the difference between B (b9) and Bb (9) damn handwritten chords!
Last edited by doive at Jan 10, 2010,
#20
Quote by griffRG7321
The D is the minor third of B, not the major. The chords sound doesn't imply anything lydian.

It's a Bmb5maj7 chord and can be used as a passing chord or a dominant. It could also be enharmonic to a Bb7b9 but having the b9 in the bass seems a bit weird.



Ah wait you're right.

How Did I get on a M7 chord

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#21
Quote by griffRG7321
The D is the minor third of B, not the major. The chords sound doesn't imply anything lydian.

It's a Bmb5maj7 chord and can be used as a passing chord or a dominant. It could also be enharmonic to a Bb7b9 but having the b9 in the bass seems a bit weird.


i said that it was Bmb5maj7 you took it further though, i dont see how it can anything different when the intervals are 1 b3 b5 7.

i guess it can be used as a dominant in the tension and release sort of way

and who said it can be used with phrygian dominant is right but it has to be Cmb5maj7 to work in the key of B


please god be right
Last edited by metaladdict123 at Jan 11, 2010,
#22
Quote by metaladdict123
i said that it was Bmb5maj7 you took it further though, i dont see how it can anything different when the intervals are 1 b3 b5 7.

i guess it can be used as a dominant in the tension and release sort of way

and who said it can be used with phrygian dominant is right but it has to be Cmb5maj7 to work in the key of B


please god be right


The point is that that spelling of it will never come up in a song.
#23
Quote by isaac_bandits
The point is that that spelling of it will never come up in a song.


i guess but that just seems the simpilar way, B minor so you know its 1 and a b3, a flattened 5th and a major 7th. I dont know, sometimes musical terms are so pointlessly complicated
#24
Quote by metaladdict123
i guess but that just seems the simpilar way, B minor so you know its 1 and a b3, a flattened 5th and a major 7th. I dont know, sometimes musical terms are so pointlessly complicated


Find me anywhere where it would function that way.

The Vadd9 chord from the harmonic minor is an add♭9, but there's no scale that has a minor third, diminished fifth, and major seventh above any scale degree. That would require an augmented second next to a major second.

And why would you alter a chord to be like that? It doesn't make a better resolution anywhere.

And its not simpler to say. You can say "add flat nine" or "diminished major seventh", and the three syllables are less words than the seven. And everyone will know what an add♭9 is, while alot of people will be confused when you say dimmaj7.
#25
Generally speaking this chord is actually rootless... not in the sense that it doesn't have one, but in the sense that you can't select one (or it's not present in the voicing).

You can look at it a bunch of different ways (including as some kind of G dom with the root missing). But the easiest way to handle any complex diminished root chord is simply to view it as having extra leading tones pushing around. So this can get used as dom sub anywhere you can resolve A#/Bb to A or B in the following chord, and resolve any of the diminished tones (it doesn't matter which one).

It can also occur in some kind of passing/suspended sequence... say from Bm lowering the 5th and one of the roots a half step and resolving to Bb in the bass by half step.

Trying to pick an artificial base or limiting chords like this to one function won't really get you anywhere with it, without some context around it.
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#27
Quote by isaac_bandits
Find me anywhere where it would function that way.

The Vadd9 chord from the harmonic minor is an add♭9, but there's no scale that has a minor third, diminished fifth, and major seventh above any scale degree. That would require an augmented second next to a major second.

And why would you alter a chord to be like that? It doesn't make a better resolution anywhere.

And its not simpler to say. You can say "add flat nine" or "diminished major seventh", and the three syllables are less words than the seven. And everyone will know what an add♭9 is, while alot of people will be confused when you say dimmaj7.


i didnt bring it up and i also said that it could be a diminished traid with a major 7 in an earlier post. Yes everyone knows what a add b9 is, even people who have been playing for 2 months

not

anyway its my way of seeing the chord so it may not be the way everyone else name it, but its not wrong its just not traditional
Last edited by metaladdict123 at Jan 12, 2010,
#28
I could be completely wrong because it has been over a year since I've learned this song, but I am relatively sure that the Miles Davis song - Solar - has a iteration of this chord somewhere in the turn around I believe.

Might be worth looking into . . . it's a great song.
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#29
Quote by metaladdict123
anyway its my way of seeing the chord so it may not be the way everyone else name it, but its not wrong its just not traditional


Everything is named based on function. You can't just say 'I like an enharmonic spelling better, and I'm going to name it as if a different note is functioning as the root' and have it be correct. The point of theory is to give things standard names, so that anyone can communicate, rather than to just call things whatever makes the most sense to you, and would just confuse someone. If you actually had it functioning as a ♭3 ♭5 and ♮7 above a root, you could call it a dimmaj7, but since you (or anyone has yet to come up with that context, there's no reason to call it that.
#30
Quote by isaac_bandits
but since you (or anyone has yet to come up with that context, there's no reason to call it that.
Oh Isaac, do I have to?

Bdim(maj7)->C7->F->Bdim(ma7)->F->A->Bdim(maj7)->Bm

Three different uses, three different keys, and only 5 chords needed, x2x331 for the first voicing, x2333x for the last two. You can clearly call it this in all three positions.
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#31
Quote by Corwinoid
Oh Isaac, do I have to?

Bdim(maj7)->C7->F->Bdim(ma7)->F->A->Bdim(maj7)->Bm

Three different uses, three different keys, and only 5 chords needed, x2x331 for the first voicing, x2333x for the last two. You can clearly call it this in all three positions.


thanks for this example my friend
#32
Quote by Corwinoid
Oh Isaac, do I have to?

Bdim(maj7)->C7->F->Bdim(ma7)->F->A->Bdim(maj7)->Bm

Three different uses, three different keys, and only 5 chords needed, x2x331 for the first voicing, x2333x for the last two. You can clearly call it this in all three positions.


Then there's a context, and its fine to call it that. I think it is important to have context for a chord before naming it something. Otherwise we'd have some person wanting to talk about sus♭4 chords.
#33
Quote by isaac_bandits
Then there's a context, and its fine to call it that. I think it is important to have context for a chord before naming it something. Otherwise we'd have some person wanting to talk about sus♭4 chords.


what if you dont have a context, you need to call it something
#34
Quote by metaladdict123
what if you dont have a context, you need to call it something


Look at the chord I posted. Its enharmonic to a major chord. That's what you'd call it without context. sus♭4 just doesn't make any sense.
Last edited by isaac_bandits at Jan 13, 2010,
#35
surely its simpler to call it how you would read the intervals, anyway it dosent matter its the same chord
#36
Keep in mind that there are 2 diminished scale. Diminished half whole and diminished whole half. The whole half has a diminished arpeggio with a "raised 7." I put raised 7 in quotes because since were using the diminished scale, the intervals are no longer diatonic and the names dont exactly apply.

So the chord you named would theoretically work when playing a diminished melody

Also, chords with heavy alterations are frequently used to create enclosures.

But you might as well be asking "Are there any uses for the major chord."

Every sound has a use. Some are trickier than others, but I bet you right now, I could find an orchestral score somewhere that uses this exact chord
Last edited by tubatom868686 at Jan 13, 2010,
#37
Quote by metaladdict123
surely its simpler to call it how you would read the intervals, anyway it dosent matter its the same chord

Bb/B without context, isaac's right about it needing context... diminished chords have multiple functions, especially with extra chromatic tones. Without that context you can't really call it anything accurately, other than naming it simply.
Quote by les_kris
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#38
Quote by tubatom868686

Every sound has a use. Some are trickier than others, but I bet you right now, I could find an orchestral score somewhere that uses this exact chord


that bet is ooon brother!

I tried a fair bit of jazz stuff, the closest i could get was a x7b9 which has the same notes, plus one, as a (x+1)dim maj7, but the 7th from the x7b9 was always present, couldn't find an instance without it...
#39
Quote by doive
that bet is ooon brother!

I tried a fair bit of jazz stuff, the closest i could get was a x7b9 which has the same notes, plus one, as a (x+1)dim maj7, but the 7th from the x7b9 was always present, couldn't find an instance without it...


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