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#3
It's true. The people around him hardly gets mentioned.
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#4
Sounds interesting.
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#5
Good. Nothing I read in that article sounds particularly 'incendiary'; rather it all seems to be the truth. The article seems to be trying to sensationalise the whole thing, but if you read between the lines it's just one man telling the truth instead of the one dimensional version of history people are taught.
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#7
Hitler a scapegoat? hardly, he was mental as a wingless duck but Himmler was by far the most effed up of the 2, even Hitler was pissed at some of the stuff Himmler got up to.
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#9
this isnt right, but hilter and bob saget are my idols.
Last edited by sol-sob-on-pcp at Jan 11, 2010,
#10
Sounds interesting, Hitler hasn't been explored probably in the mainstream, there were worse characters knocking about at the time. The other ones seem interesting too, especially MaCarthyism (sp?).

Though the bit about Americans not knowing the link between WW1 and 2 can't possibly be true can it?
#11
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The only people watching will be communists.


I think Oliver Stone has a right to be communist. You know, what with the whole Bronze Star with valor device and Purple Heart thing.

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Though the bit about Americans not knowing the link between WW1 and 2 can't possibly be true can it?


Most Americans are smarter than they're often portrayed; it sounds like more of the usual "OMG amerikanz r soooo dum lolol" trash you hear pretty frequently.
Last edited by blackthought at Jan 11, 2010,
#12
Was Hitler evil? Yes, without question. Was Hitler a product of a nation that turned to him because he promised a way out of their desperation, a situation that had been caused by the forced reparations paid by Germany at the end of WWI? Yes. During the early 20's, the extreme cost of these reparations caused hyperinflation in Germany similar to what's happening in Zimbabwe now. By 1923, 1 pound of bread cost 3 billion marks, 1 pound of meat cost 36 billion, and 1 glass of beer cost 4 billion. Hitler came to a country full of people who, in their view, had been mercilessly crushed by foreign powers. Hitler offered not only a restoration of Germany's status, but German conquest of the world. The people accepted him.
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one of the best, educated and logical posts I've ever seen on UG in the Pit. Well done good sir.
#13
Quote by aaciseric
Though the bit about Americans not knowing the link between WW1 and 2 can't possibly be true can it?

That part stood out to me too.

WWI sent Germany into a spiraling depression, which Hitler promised he could pull the country out of. A simplification, but it's pretty easy to get.

Unless there's something I'm missing there.
#14
Quote by aaciseric
Sounds interesting, Hitler hasn't been explored probably in the mainstream, there were worse characters knocking about at the time. The other ones seem interesting too, especially MaCarthyism (sp?).

Though the bit about Americans not knowing the link between WW1 and 2 can't possibly be true can it?


As far as I know, in most American schools they don't cover post-WW1 Germany, which is crucial to understanding how Hitler came to power.

I'm pretty sure they only cover the events of the wars themselves (namely, the parts that the United States was involved in (although the US was very involved in the aftermath of WW1, what with the drawing up of the peace treaties and the loans to Germany and what not))

It would certainly explain why people have knee-jerk reactions to Hitler, and, to a lesser extent, Stalin, because they only have a one-sided view of them with no explanation as to how they got to be where they were.
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#16
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The only people watching will be communists.

I'll watch it.
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#17
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The only people watching will be communists.


Good news for the guys in this thread, then.
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#19
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Good news for the guys in this thread, then.


I clicked it
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#20
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Dirty commie!

I shower daily.
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#21
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Good. Nothing I read in that article sounds particularly 'incendiary'; rather it all seems to be the truth. The article seems to be trying to sensationalise the whole thing, but if you read between the lines it's just one man telling the truth instead of the one dimensional version of history people are taught.

+1

It sounds perfectly reasonable to me. He isn't condoning what the Nazis did, just exploring the history of it from a neutral point of view, a factual point of view.
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#22
Quote by FrustratedRocka
Was Hitler evil? Yes, without question. Was Hitler a product of a nation that turned to him because he promised a way out of their desperation, a situation that had been caused by the forced reparations paid by Germany at the end of WWI? Yes. During the early 20's, the extreme cost of these reparations caused hyperinflation in Germany similar to what's happening in Zimbabwe now. By 1923, 1 pound of bread cost 3 billion marks, 1 pound of meat cost 36 billion, and 1 glass of beer cost 4 billion. Hitler came to a country full of people who, in their view, had been mercilessly crushed by foreign powers. Hitler offered not only a restoration of Germany's status, but German conquest of the world. The people accepted him.


Hyperinflation had been solved by this man - Stresemann - a fair few years before people knew about Hitler. He was just a far-right non entity during those years, only known for a failed Putsch in Munich, and going to jail.

Hitler arrived in Depression Germany, by which time many of the Versailles reparations had been cut by the Allies. There was still great resentment, yes and Hitler did help to achieve national identity and pride in Germany. But, that was because Germany faced a choice between Nazism or Communism, the very prominent middle classes were scared shitless of the Communists, so voted Nazi. He didn't even win a proper majority anyway then, had to use the SA to bully and intimidate and even bought out other political parties to swing his majority.

And Goebbels was the brains anyway.
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#23
Goebbels was a propaganda genius, no doubt about it. Even when the Russians were knocking on the front gates to Berlin in April 1945, the Nazi propaganda machine made many believe in an eventual victory.
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#24
It is true that most people forget how important Stalin was in WW2. Most of the fighting took place on the Eastern front and nobody seems to ever give a shit about it. Stalin was a massive dick (understatement) but only a fool can deny that he wasn't a skilled leader. Russia was screwed before Stalin was in power and he managed to turn them into a war machine in a very short period of time. Hitler underestimated the Russians, winter struck and the Germans didn't stand a chance.

Thank you mother Russia.
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your just a simpleton that cant understand strategy apparently.

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#25
If Hitler hadn't been such a lousy military commander, the Germans could've won the war on the Eastern Front. He made so many bad decisions on that theater, instead of listening to his general staff which was no doubt the best of the era.
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#26
Quote by Demon Wolf
If Hitler hadn't been such a lousy military commander, the Germans could've won the war on the Eastern Front. He made so many bad decisions on that theater, instead of listening to his general staff which was no doubt the best of the era.


Dude Hitler never knew what he was doing. He just shouted "we will make Germany great again, gaaargh agghahrg!!!" and the people went "...oh holy shit.. yeah!!" and then he snoozed for a bit. Then he got his map, got his darts and threw a dart at it. He did this a few times and was very lucky with the outcome. One day, he tripped and landed on his lucky gland, crushing it. With a slighty fractured wrist he threw a dart at the map and it landed on Poland. He invaded Poland. Woopsy.
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your just a simpleton that cant understand strategy apparently.

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#27
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Dude Hitler never knew what he was doing. He just shouted "we will make Germany great again, gaaargh agghahrg!!!" and the people went "...oh holy shit.. yeah!!" and then he snoozed for a bit. Then he got his map, got his darts and threw a dart at it. He did this a few times and was very lucky with the outcome. One day, he tripped and landed on his lucky gland, crushing it. With a slighty fractured wrist he threw a dart at the map and it landed on Poland. He invaded Poland. Woopsy.


oh yeah same as that evil man in Star Wars

Dart Vader

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
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#28
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It is true that most people forget how important Stalin was in WW2. Most of the fighting took place on the Eastern front and nobody seems to ever give a shit about it. Stalin was a massive dick (understatement) but only a fool can deny that he wasn't a skilled leader. Russia was screwed before Stalin was in power and he managed to turn them into a war machine in a very short period of time. Hitler underestimated the Russians, winter struck and the Germans didn't stand a chance.

Thank you mother Russia.


I still can't use simply the Second World War to glorify, or redeem Stalin. Everything he did to progress the nation came at the most horrifying human cost. The Purges, many famines, one slip of the tongue sending you to a Siberian Gulag.

I wouldn't blame Hitler for underestimating the Red Army at the time. They were some of the most amateurish fighters, and in the summer of 1941, when Barbarossa started, Germany swept across Russia with ease. Hell, the SS could see the Kremlin on the horizon, but Hitler got distracted by Stalingrad, for symbolic purposes.

Also, according to Anthony Beevor, the Western Front actually saw fighting as intense as that on the Eastern front, albeit with fewer deaths. Maybe Britain and America took more prisoners instead? He wrote that there were dozens more German divisions in France fighting along a smaller front compared to the East.

I know Russia paid a huge part in the War, but I can't redeem the USSR for it.
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#29
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oh yeah same as that evil man in Star Wars

Dart Vader

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL


Yeah but in the end it was all Fluke Skywalker...

>.>

<.<
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your just a simpleton that cant understand strategy apparently.

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#30
im glad he's doing it, for some reason they don't teach you all these things at school, except A level history in the UK

Hitler wasn't a scapegoat, he was just a tosser. He was bone idle and wasn't even sure what he wanted, he merely concurred with the suggestions of his staff. Unlike Stalin who was a real dictator, the sort that never gets any sleep and is incharge of everything! and he's right Stalin did drag the USSR in to modernity to fight the war with Germany, without him it is concievable that we would have lost the war badly.

but it is a slightly misleading title im not sure Mr Stone is saying these ar egood people, he's just trying to highlight things that are rarely, if ever, metione din the mainstream media.

I know Russia paid a huge part in the War, but I can't redeem the USSR for it.


really? because if the Nazi had won the eastern front everyone else was buggered. The soviets fought gallently and Stalin's policies of the time can be seem to have won that war; the dramatic increase in industrial production, moving the factories east, keeping the smaller nations of the USSR onside for the fight and modernising the army.
ofcourse this cannot excuse social policy, but as a wartime leader he did what he had to. ofcourse the whole situation could have been avoided had Lenin not died or the revolution had taken it's natural course in Germany.
Last edited by imthehitcher at Jan 11, 2010,
#31
Quote by freddaahh
I still can't use simply the Second World War to glorify, or redeem Stalin. Everything he did to progress the nation came at the most horrifying human cost. The Purges, many famines, one slip of the tongue sending you to a Siberian Gulag.

I wouldn't blame Hitler for underestimating the Red Army at the time. They were some of the most amateurish fighters, and in the summer of 1941, when Barbarossa started, Germany swept across Russia with ease. Hell, the SS could see the Kremlin on the horizon, but Hitler got distracted by Stalingrad, for symbolic purposes.

Also, according to Anthony Beevor, the Western Front actually saw fighting as intense as that on the Eastern front, albeit with fewer deaths. Maybe Britain and America took more prisoners instead? He wrote that there were dozens more German divisions in France fighting along a smaller front compared to the East.

I know Russia paid a huge part in the War, but I can't redeem the USSR for it.


He did not divert forces south for Stalingrad in 1941, it was to conquer Ukraine and the Caucasus for the massive oil reserves in the area.

And yeah, the Western Front weren't as bloody... Out of the about five million German soldiers who died in World War II, around four million of them perished on the Eastern Front!
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#32
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>.>

<.<

He'd have never made it without Glans Solo.
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#33
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As far as I know, in most American schools they don't cover post-WW1 Germany, which is crucial to understanding how Hitler came to power.

I'm pretty sure they only cover the events of the wars themselves (namely, the parts that the United States was involved in (although the US was very involved in the aftermath of WW1, what with the drawing up of the peace treaties and the loans to Germany and what not))

It would certainly explain why people have knee-jerk reactions to Hitler, and, to a lesser extent, Stalin, because they only have a one-sided view of them with no explanation as to how they got to be where they were.


yes they do, they tend not to go in dpeth but it is mentioned at the very least. I remember doing an entire week in hoistory class talking about the treaty of Versailles and it's effects.

Even understanding how those people got into power, the reactions most people have are pretty well justified, both Hitler and Stalin where genocidal lunatics.
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Last edited by Kid_Thorazine at Jan 11, 2010,
#34
Quote by Kid_Thorazine
yes they do, they tend not to go in dpeth but it is mentioned at the very least. I remember doing an entire week in hoistory class talking about the treaty of Versailles and it's effects.

Even understanding how those people got into power, the reactions most people have are pretty well justified, both Hitler and Stalin where genocidal lunatics.



a week is hardly sufficient to cover the period known as weimar Germany. The US played a big role in Germany at this point and after the wall street crash Germany plunged in to the most severe economic crisis. you must also take into account Hitler was not only a populist reaction to the treaty of Versaille but a Conservative reaction to the ever growing 'threat' of communism- during this period Bavaria was even claimed as a Soviet Socialist Republic before being brutally surpressed by the state and the Freikorps while many influencial left wing thinkers were murdered (such as Rosa Luxemburg)
Last edited by imthehitcher at Jan 11, 2010,
#35
Quote by freddaahh
I still can't use simply the Second World War to glorify, or redeem Stalin. Everything he did to progress the nation came at the most horrifying human cost. The Purges, many famines, one slip of the tongue sending you to a Siberian Gulag.



I wouldn't blame Hitler for underestimating the Red Army at the time. They were some of the most amateurish fighters, and in the summer of 1941, when Barbarossa started, Germany swept across Russia with ease. Hell, the SS could see the Kremlin on the horizon, but Hitler got distracted by Stalingrad, for symbolic purposes.

Also, according to Anthony Beevor, the Western Front actually saw fighting as intense as that on the Eastern front, albeit with fewer deaths. Maybe Britain and America took more prisoners instead? He wrote that there were dozens more German divisions in France fighting along a smaller front compared to the East.

I know Russia paid a huge part in the War, but I can't redeem the USSR for it.
I don't think the purpose of this is to glorify or redeem anyone, rather to try and get the majority of people looking at historical events like this through a neutral viewpoint. Yes, Stalin was a bigger asshat than Hitler, but we can say that because we've looked at the facts, what really happened, and evaluated them on their own merits. To alot of people Stalin just means dirty commie.

Can't blame Hitler for underestimating the red army (a large number of them weren't even given guns), and Stalingrad was as much Stalins fault as it was Hitlers, but you sure as hell can blame him for underestimating Russia herself. Yes they swept across with ease at first, but as you said, that was in the summer. As soon as winter rolled in, supply lines were all but cut and they froze. He should have learned from Napoleons error.

It's an attempt to get people to think about things from an objective viewpoint. I think it's a good idea. Doubt it will have much effect though.
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#36
WWII was pretty much set in stone the moment the Versailles treaty was signed.

French general Ferdinand Foch said "This is not a peace. It is an armistice for twenty years", and was completely right.
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#37
Quote by archangels666
WWI sent Germany into a spiraling depression

No it didn't. Ever heard of the golden years of the Weimar republic?
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WWII was pretty much set in stone the moment the Versailles treaty was signed.

No, it really wasn't.
#38
Quote by imthehitcher
a week is hardly sufficient to cover the period known as weimar Germany. The US played a big role in Germany at this point and after the wall street crash Germany plunged in to the most severe economic crisis. you must also take into account Hitler was not only a populist reaction to the treaty of Versaille but a Conservative reaction to the ever growing 'threat' of communism- during this period Bavaria was even claimed as a Soviet Socialist Republic before being brutally surpressed by the state and the Freikorps while many influencial left wing thinkers were murdered (such as Rosa Luxemburg)


This was basic high school world history, you'd never spend more than a week on any given topic, even in college, my western history class didn't go into too much more about it.
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#39
Just to throw this out there, I'm sure there's going to be a few users tempted to talk about Nazi Germany when they actually lack a good knowledge of it. If you haven't taken good classes on it or have formally read the topic, please don't try to educate.

I know this seems arrogant but it's one of the things I hate the most when these topics come up.
#40
Quote by Craigo
Just to throw this out there, I'm sure there's going to be a few users tempted to talk about Nazi Germany when they actually lack a good knowledge of it. If you haven't taken good classes on it or have formally read the topic, please don't try to educate.

I know this seems arrogant but it's one of the things I hate the most when these topics come up.


how exactly does one define "good classes" or formally read" the first one is highly subjective, the second one seems like an attempt at academic elitism.
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