captain_jack
call me Caleb
Join date: Jun 2006
429 IQ
#1
I'm writing a paper for school about the benefits of punk music and the punk community, and I'm looking for counter-arguments that I can acknowledge and then refute. So basically, I need people/organizations who say punk (or any sort of rebellious music, really) is a bad thing for society. Do any of you, off the top of your heads, know of any people or organizations that take this sort of stance? I tried googling "criticism of punk rock" and ended up with pages of irrelevent stuff. I think specific names would help a lot, but I have no idea where to start. Any help is much appreciated!
EL2T
Why not?
Join date: Jun 2008
195 IQ
#2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GG_Allin

This bloke was... interesting?

Edit: Oops, misunderstood what you wanted, thought you wanted examples of excess, sorry, how about saying the establishment (for anarchic punks) or people shocked by 'moral decline' (shown by the likes of GG).
Last edited by EL2T at Mar 8, 2010,
Gakbez
UG Newbie
Join date: Mar 2009
174 IQ
#3
Fundamental Christians
Quote by CoreysMonster
Why, my pasty danish cracker, I believe you've got it!
BostonLacrosse
HEY SUBURBIA!!
Join date: Apr 2005
333 IQ
#4
Glen Beck
Metal Heads
Prog rock Kids
sXe kids

and one of my biggest criticisms is the elitism that is in punk rock, I'm guilty of it myself but i don't like it. You could talk about the neo-nazi side of punk and Oi! as well.
Propaganda does not deceive people; it merely helps them to deceive themselves-Eric Hoffer

Quote by GannonBracewell

CBGB wants to be famous like the others such as Green Day and Offspring. They don't want to be a underground punk band.
nashawa
Rightful HxC Emperor
Join date: Feb 2008
1,511 IQ
#7
Quote by BostonLacrosse
Glen Beck
Metal Heads
Prog rock Kids
sXe kids

and one of my biggest criticisms is the elitism that is in punk rock, I'm guilty of it myself but i don't like it. You could talk about the neo-nazi side of punk and Oi! as well.

Straightedge kids hate punk? Wha?
Quote by emoboy027
Is fingering an emo chick that likes yoy and that has fallen in love with you is it wrong to you to finger her during lunch outside in front of everyone at the high school? would you not care or lol even wish it was you?

Youztoobz
MIDI Magicalness!
werty22
Banned
Join date: Dec 2006
1,095 IQ
#9
Sounds like a dumb idea for a paper. I would do something less stupid if I were you.
sargasm
1977 and we are going mad
Join date: May 2003
1,817 IQ
#10
punks = gay homos thanks to iggy pop boning david bowie.
MrsMesaBoogie
Banned
Join date: Mar 2010
10 IQ
#11
Quote by EL2T
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GG_Allin

This bloke was... interesting?

Edit: Oops, misunderstood what you wanted, thought you wanted examples of excess, sorry, how about saying the establishment (for anarchic punks) or people shocked by 'moral decline' (shown by the likes of GG).


gg allin is awesome
nashawa
Rightful HxC Emperor
Join date: Feb 2008
1,511 IQ
#12
^That's ridiculous.
Quote by emoboy027
Is fingering an emo chick that likes yoy and that has fallen in love with you is it wrong to you to finger her during lunch outside in front of everyone at the high school? would you not care or lol even wish it was you?

Youztoobz
MIDI Magicalness!
dkeshiki
hypnowave
Join date: Feb 2010
32 IQ
#13
There was this thing called Mothers Against Noise who came and picketted shows on the Sonic Youth/Wolf Eyes tour, because they deemed the music and messages to be morally corrupt. Later, the website was hacked satirically by fans of these bands.

Punk is associated with crime and, most importantly, Anarchism. Obviously most people dont know the serious political implications of Anarchism and just assume it means "anarchy", or chaos. Subsequently, self-indentified Punks and Anarchists are viewed by the media, the police etc as violent rioters without morals or purpose.

To be honest, it shouldnt be hard to find examples of this sort of thing, as punk is a radical movement which is critical of society. It is only natural that society would try to supress it in return.

Hope that helps.
neidnarb11890
gentle collapsing
Join date: Mar 2006
270 IQ
#14
"Punks are all morally depraved nihilists who are just out to fuck shit up and get wasted. They're a burden on society, and a danger to traditional American values."*

*Dickens, Charles. Bleak House.

There you go.
EL2T
Why not?
Join date: Jun 2008
195 IQ
#15
Quote by MrsMesaBoogie
gg allin is awesome

Was... surely?
SuperBlob
DIRECT HIT!
Join date: Feb 2006
1,589 IQ
#16
Quote by EL2T
Was... surely?

Wasn't, surely?
FUCK YOU! GET PUMPED!
nashawa
Rightful HxC Emperor
Join date: Feb 2008
1,511 IQ
#17
People really think GG Allin was cool?
Quote by emoboy027
Is fingering an emo chick that likes yoy and that has fallen in love with you is it wrong to you to finger her during lunch outside in front of everyone at the high school? would you not care or lol even wish it was you?

Youztoobz
MIDI Magicalness!
neidnarb11890
gentle collapsing
Join date: Mar 2006
270 IQ
#18
GG Allin lives on in his music. I think it's appropriate to use the present tense when describing him. It's like when my friend and I discuss how cool Dostoevsky is. Because even though he's dead, he never stopped being cool. Unless you're Lenin.
That said, GG Allin is not cool.
Surely.
I Dont Belong
Hippy Killer
Join date: Jan 2010
250 IQ
#19
I dont care about GG Allin he made the scene look bad. Im surprised that he still has fans. He is an interesting person that is for sure.
With such a wealth of information why are you so poor?
BrianApocalypse
Prozac Junkie
Join date: May 2004
7,782 IQ
#20
Quote by nashawa
Straightedge kids hate punk? Wha?


It's true,

Ian Mackaye hated punks because he developed male pattern baldness at 16, and started the dressed down straight edge movement to say "f*ck you" to them.

TS,

Jello Biafra vs Tipper Gore isn't a bad place to look because it's quite high profile, and you can obviously fit in the Ramones' Censorsh*t quite well. And there's an Oprah interview.

John Lydon is an obvious thing to look at, Tony Blackburn was one obvious anti-punk broadcaster. Bill Grundy should also be mentioned.

A Scottish MP tried to delegalise (edit, wrong word, should be criminalise) glue because kids bought Ramones LP and started sniffing.

You have actually picked quite an obscure niche topic, punk actually wasn't a big a movement as you might think and to an extent you're going to be clutching at straws looking for substantial material. That said, everything I've posted here should be ample matter for a reasonably small report, up to say a couple of thousand words.

Good luck with your report.
dkeshiki
hypnowave
Join date: Feb 2010
32 IQ
#21
Quote by BrianApocalypse


punk actually wasn't a big a movement as you might think and to an extent you're going to be clutching at straws looking for substantial material.



Generally back your post but I have to disagree with this. Punk is at least 40 years of culture by this point. So that's also 40 years of people trying to write it off. And the crucial thing is that they have mainly succeeded, since most people think punk is something which has been and gone, when in fact it is a sustainable network which operates healthily to this day. I dont feel like the TS will be clutching at straws to be honest.
neidnarb11890
gentle collapsing
Join date: Mar 2006
270 IQ
#22
I would argue that punk had an undeniably (though it is almost always denied) important impact on the development of music over the past forty years. One could easily write a whole book outlining that.

As a cultural movement, however, I don't think it has a whole lot of importance. Sure, I love punk rock, and most of the people who I see at punk shows are cool guys, but I don't think that has any vastly significant impact on how society is operating. It's something that punks love and everyone else ignores. But I think that's as much a result of the "if you're playing big venues and signing big record contracts, you're a whore" mentality that punks have developed as it is people trying to write it off as something that's come and gone. I don't necessarily think it's wrong that punks feel that way, but it's silly to insist on staying "underground" while simultaneously criticizing "mainstream" society for ignoring you.

But who knows, maybe I'm wrong and punks are, in fact, the unacknowledged legislators of the world!
whyvern
jet skis on the reg
Join date: Mar 2002
3,296 IQ
#24
Quote by neidnarb11890
I would argue that punk had an undeniably (though it is almost always denied) important impact on the development of music over the past forty years. One could easily write a whole book outlining that.

As a cultural movement, however, I don't think it has a whole lot of importance. Sure, I love punk rock, and most of the people who I see at punk shows are cool guys, but I don't think that has any vastly significant impact on how society is operating. It's something that punks love and everyone else ignores. But I think that's as much a result of the "if you're playing big venues and signing big record contracts, you're a whore" mentality that punks have developed as it is people trying to write it off as something that's come and gone. I don't necessarily think it's wrong that punks feel that way, but it's silly to insist on staying "underground" while simultaneously criticizing "mainstream" society for ignoring you.

But who knows, maybe I'm wrong and punks are, in fact, the unacknowledged legislators of the world!



I think what's pretty significant; is that we, the punks, have created an alternative to mainstream society when it comes to many different things. We've created a different way to travel and make friends (touring/travelling punk kids), play music, publish our literature/films, live (in a communal punk house/squat) all in ways that we would LIKE to see the world run. Usually this is done within the context of (sometimes subconsciously) anarchism. We've also made FOOD NOT BOMBS a worldwide movement (shit they got one in Nairobi, Kenya), we were amongst the initial organizers and participants of the modern anti-globalization movement, promoted animal rights/environmentalism around the world and conected people and cultures who never would have known each other if it weren't through something so trivial as punk rock music.

Maybe punk hasn't made such a great impact on society in general, but the alternative it's created for those who search it out, is extremely noteworthy.

edit: I'm also not the only that thinks so. There have been several masters thesis written in Anthropology Departments in American/European Universities in the past several years examining the culture of punk rock (and various offshoots of) and alternative it represents to modern society.
HELP ME I'M TRAPPED IN A HUMAN BODY!
Last edited by whyvern at Mar 10, 2010,
BrianApocalypse
Prozac Junkie
Join date: May 2004
7,782 IQ
#25
Quote by dkeshiki
Generally back your post but I have to disagree with this. Punk is at least 40 years of culture by this point. So that's also 40 years of people trying to write it off... I dont feel like the TS will be clutching at straws to be honest.


Thanks for calling me out.

While you're perfectly correct (in a somewhat linear way) you've misconstrued what I've said.

My point was that punk has always been a very small movement - and it's biggest chartings in the entertainment industry - a very short period in 1967 and 1977 - when the Sex Pistols album and their singles came out, were in fact very much a gimmick on a commercial level, when in fact subsequent views looking back will illustrate that punk was a rather large phenonemon at that point.

Later glories, like the Clash's London Calling being named the best album of the 1980's by a leading american music publication, were the result of critcal canonisation, and not commercial acclaim. (Some of the Sandanista and Combat Rock singles were big in America, but by this point of course the Clash were no longer a punk group.)

In terms of opposition to punk, the actual outroar was again limited. The Bill Grundy show - a nationwide scandal - and its aftermath saw relatively few substantial articles and other media, aside from front page headlines the next day.

In terms of 40 years of punk, what you have to remember is that - with a few exceptions, notably G.G. Allin - any critisism of punk was limited to the late 1970's.

As Jello from the Dead Kennedys hypothesises here, (4:50 or thereabouts) punk lost all of its cutting edge and by today's standards is a very tame genre in comparison. This isn't, of course, me being detrimental towards contemporary punk bands, but instead illustrating that society has in fact moved on - indeed, it took as sick as G.G. Allin just to be offensive. And he was fairly sick.

Regarding the original post, while the piece is about the punk subculture, it's going to take recognised opinions from well-known people, such as national media - or indeed Tipper Gore and the Senators' wives - rather than the average joe to illustrate the opposition to the punk movement. And there are less examples of that than one might initially think.

Of course, you could just do a survery asking random people about punk, but everyone knows that surveys are totally gay.

Quote by Ned
I would argue that punk had an undeniably (though it is almost always denied) important impact on the development of music over the past forty years. One could easily write a whole book outlining that.


That's right, there are some very good, and some very awful publications available, which I would be happy to recommend, and not recommend.

But the influence there is of course very much a grass roots one.

Quote by Ned
As a cultural movement, however, I don't think it has a whole lot of importance. Sure, I love punk rock, and most of the people who I see at punk shows are cool guys, but I don't think that has any vastly significant impact on how society is operating. It's something that punks love and everyone else ignores.


This part helps illustrate that there isn't going to be very much in the way of high-profile critisism.
captain_jack
call me Caleb
Join date: Jun 2006
429 IQ
#26
Thanks for all the replies guys, especially Brian and whyvern. Brian, you're very much right in that there isn't exactly a wealth of high profile criticism out there that I can include in the paper. It's an 8-10 pager, but thankfully the criticism is only one aspect that I'll be touching on. One of the main points I plan to make is actually the whole alternative community/DIY ethic that whyvern mentioned, which I ought to be able to do quite a bit with.
I'll be googling Brian's suggestions shortly.
dkeshiki
hypnowave
Join date: Feb 2010
32 IQ
#27
Yeah I think we essentially agree Brian I wasnt trying to piss on your chips by any means.
In terms of high profile criticism it's true that there hasn't been all that much of late, as it avoids the mainstream more and more as it progresses. But there are still cases like anti-emo violence in Mexico, which was initially played out like a "mods and rockers" thing but actually had much more of a macho homophobic motive, or the Daily Mail (british right wing bullshit tabloid) warning about emo being a "cult" which was ensnaring children.
I know this is the kind of emo which is a million miles away from punk by this point, but it demonstrates the mainstream/status quo vs alternative culture argument in more recent terms.

Here's that Daily Mail article if you havent seen it.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-400953/EMO-cult-warning-parents.html

I just find this stuff interesting, apologies if it's not helpful at all.