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#1
My all time favorite novel is A Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess, and when I looked him up on wiki I saw how expansive his list of works is. So, I was wondering if anyone out there could recomend me other great works by Burgess. Please and thanks!
#3
The Lit thread has some of your answers.

[IN PHIL WE TRUST]


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#4
If you like him you should try some Kurt Vonnegut.
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#5
I just saw the worst movie of my whole life last week

"A Clockwork Orange"

Not sure if it's the same story, but if it is... How can that be your favourite novel? What's so nice about it?
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#6
Quote by YourMomToTheMaX
I just saw the worst movie of my whole life last week

"A Clockwork Orange"

Not sure if it's the same story, but if it is... How can that be your favourite novel? What's so nice about it?

You know usually I'm cool with people hating movies that I like, but how can you call a Kubrick film the worst movie you've ever seen?
#7
Quote by YourMomToTheMaX
I just saw the worst movie of my whole life last week

"A Clockwork Orange"

Not sure if it's the same story, but if it is... How can that be your favourite novel? What's so nice about it?


You obviously have no taste in film and I feel sorry for your pathetic existence.

Read the book.
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#8
Quote by YourMomToTheMaX
I just saw the worst movie of my whole life last week

"A Clockwork Orange"

Not sure if it's the same story, but if it is... How can that be your favourite novel? What's so nice about it?


You ought to leave.

Get The Wanting Seed by Anothony Burgess. Dystopian novel where Christianity is a minority in terms of religion and economical discrimination is present towards heterosexuals as the world is over-populated. Other themes present in the book are a nation sending their army against itself, globalization as well as cannibalism being present and encouraged in the culture.

Great read.
Cette nuit j'ai rêvé que je mâchais ses yeux
Après avoir crevé par accès de furie
Ta replète panse d'helminthes blancs nourrie,
Trop prompte à déféquer le fruit d'un vit sanieux.
Last edited by illuminatiano at May 18, 2010,
#9
Quote by wizards?
You know usually I'm cool with people hating movies that I like, but how can you call a Kubrick film the worst movie you've ever seen?


I don't really know, but it was

Pointless violence, women getting raped and killed, and a stupid anti-hero who is super-cult because he likes Beethowen and has a snake as a pet?

Not the ingredients of a good movie, at least for me

I respect those who like it, but it pisses me off when I see someone with that guy's picture (Alex?) on MSN, for example.
Seamonkey has my money!

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#10
originality is not an ingredient in entertainment or art ?
Cette nuit j'ai rêvé que je mâchais ses yeux
Après avoir crevé par accès de furie
Ta replète panse d'helminthes blancs nourrie,
Trop prompte à déféquer le fruit d'un vit sanieux.
#11
Quote by wizards?
You know usually I'm cool with people hating movies that I like, but how can you call a Kubrick film the worst movie you've ever seen?

Eye's Wide Shut would make my top 10 list of worst movies ever. I suppose my expectations were to high. His version of The Shining pretty much sucked too.
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#12
Quote by CullenT
You obviously have no taste in film and I feel sorry for your pathetic existence.

Read the book.




Quote by illuminatiano
You ought to leave.

Get The Wanting Seed by Anothony Burgess. Dystopian novel where Christianity is a minority in terms of religion and economical discrimination is present towards heterosexuals as the world is over-populated. Other themes present in the book are a nation sending their army against itself, globalization as well as cannibalism being present and encouraged in the culture.

Great read.


Seriously, guys. What is wrong with somebody having a different opinion on a simple movie? Does it hurt or something?


Edit:

Quote by illuminatiano
originality is not an ingredient in entertainment or art ?


Ok, now would you please re-read my post and show me where I said that "originality is not an ingredient in entertainment or art"?
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Last edited by YourMomToTheMaX at May 18, 2010,
#13
Quote by YourMomToTheMaX
I don't really know, but it was

Pointless violence, women getting raped and killed, and a stupid anti-hero who is super-cult because he likes Beethowen and has a snake as a pet?

Not the ingredients of a good movie, at least for me

I respect those who like it, but it pisses me off when I see someone with that guy's picture (Alex?) on MSN, for example.

I'm sorry, but disliking a Stanley Kubrick film is just... Wrong? I mean the ultraviolence and all of that is essential to the story because without that life that Alex lives in the beginning, there'd be no way that he could be "redeemed" in society which is the entire point of the movie... Not being redeemed to the whole of society, because people still hate him and resent him for what he did, but to himself.

If you didn't catch that, I really feel sorry for you because you seriously missed out.

Quote by Jackal58
Eye's Wide Shut would make my top 10 list of worst movies ever. I suppose my expectations were to high. His version of The Shining pretty much sucked too.


Oh Eyes Wide Shut wasn't very good. At least in my opinion. I mean I liked the way it was shot, but the plot left a lot to be desired. You just can't argue with the man that directed a list like this though:

Lolita
2001: A Space Odyssey
The Shining
Full Metal Jacket
Dr. Strangelove

Those are all classics in the world of the cinema.

WIZ?EDIT: I forgot that he did work on Spartacus, now there's a classic.
Last edited by wizards? at May 18, 2010,
#15
Quote by wizards?
I'm sorry, but disliking a Stanley Kubrick film is just... Wrong? I mean the ultraviolence and all of that is essential to the story because without that life that Alex lives in the beginning, there'd be no way that he could be "redeemed" in society which is the entire point of the movie... Not being redeemed to the whole of society, because people still hate him and resent him for what he did, but to himself.

If you didn't catch that, I really feel sorry for you because you seriously missed out.


I believe that everyone has the ability to "catch" things differently. It could be a book, a movie, a song, whathever. That's what makes art so special, I think.

I can't come here and say "disliking a Metallica album is just wrong". I think you weren't all serious, tough.

About the ultraviolence thing, well... I must say it's sort of original. The story is pretty original, but it added absolutely nothing to me.

There were positive moments, I must say. In some part of the movie I just started to hate the guy so much that I'd put a bullet in his head if I could. So, even know I didn't like the movie, at least I expressed my emotion on the carachter's acts, wich is what the author was looking for, I think.

Quote by wizards?
Oh Eyes Wide Shut wasn't very good. At least in my opinion. I mean I liked the way it was shot, but the plot left a lot to be desired. You just can't argue with the man that directed a list like this though:

Lolita
2001: A Space Odyssey
The Shining
Full Metal Jacket
Dr. Strangelove

Those are all classics in the world of the cinema.

WIZ?EDIT: I forgot that he did work on Spartacus, now there's a classic.


Just before you start shitting on my movie taste like someone else did, I read Lolita a few years ago and it was one of the most intense stories I've ever been to know.

The firts paragraph of that book is the most deep and creative thing ever written in my opinion. I also agree with a lot of Vladmir Nabokov ideas on writing.
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Last edited by YourMomToTheMaX at May 18, 2010,
#16
A Clockwork Orange was a book and movie dedicated to showing that there is no diffence to violence, and legal violence. The main character killed, rapped, mugged, etc. That is illegal violence. In the end, he was subjected to moral and scientific cruelty to condition people to be ideal citizens, which made him defenceless. Two of his old friends, who were in his gang, became police officers and attacked him. Yet they got away with it.

Basically, read into more than just at face value. It's a wonderful film.
#17
Quote by boreamor
A Clockwork Orange was a book and movie dedicated to showing that there is no diffence to violence, and legal violence. The main character killed, rapped, mugged, etc. That is illegal violence. In the end, he was subjected to moral and scientific cruelty to condition people to be ideal citizens, which made him defenceless. Two of his old friends, who were in his gang, became police officers and attacked him. Yet they got away with it.

Basically, read into more than just at face value. It's a wonderful film.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Thanks Boreamor.
#18
Quote by YourMomToTheMaX
I don't really know, but it was

Pointless violence, women getting raped and killed, and a stupid anti-hero who is super-cult because he likes Beethowen and has a snake as a pet?

Not the ingredients of a good movie, at least for me

I respect those who like it, but it pisses me off when I see someone with that guy's picture (Alex?) on MSN, for example.


Um I think the entire point of the story just flew right over your head.

EDIT: ^^ It's not that we are criticizing your taste in film or books or anything, it's just apparent you kind of have no clue what a Clockwork Orange is truly about.
Last edited by EnemyWolf at May 18, 2010,
#20
Quote by boreamor
A Clockwork Orange was a book and movie dedicated to showing that there is no diffence to violence, and legal violence. The main character killed, rapped, mugged, etc. That is illegal violence. In the end, he was subjected to moral and scientific cruelty to condition people to be ideal citizens, which made him defenceless. Two of his old friends, who were in his gang, became police officers and attacked him. Yet they got away with it.

Basically, read into more than just at face value. It's a wonderful film.


Yes, I see. That idea is explicit at the end of the movie.

Still, I can't say I liked it.
Seamonkey has my money!

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#21
Quote by YourMomToTheMaX
Yes, I see. That idea is explicit at the end of the movie.

Still, I can't say I liked it.


The movie is a poor work to base the story of A Clockwork Orange off of seeing as how it excludes the 21st chapter which is essential to grasping the overall story.
#22
Quote by YourMomToTheMaX
Yes, I see. That idea is explicit at the end of the movie.

Still, I can't say I liked it.


I can understand not liking the film. I was incredibly uncomfortable during it. But, being a lover of controversial films loved the whole concept.
#23
Quote by boreamor
I can understand not liking the film. I was incredibly uncomfortable during it. But, being a lover of controversial films loved the whole concept.


Yes, exactly. I felt very uncomfortable aswell. Maybe that's the reason why I didn't like it, because I couldn't really enjoy the movie as a moment of entertainment. Sure, it has something to say, I'm not an idiot, but the way they've put it just pissed me off.
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#24
Quote by EnemyWolf
The movie is a poor work to base the story of A Clockwork Orange off of seeing as how it excludes the 21st chapter which is essential to grasping the overall story.


Burgess absolutely hates A Clockwork Orange with a passion. If you get the new pressing (The cover is of flames and a screaming mouth) it includes both the 21st chapter and an intro by Burgess explaining how he's trapped with a book he hates and is embarrassed by. Well it's a classic whether he likes it or not.

Now, the 21st chapter, Kubrick was unaware of this until midway through filming as the American version at the time excluded it. Kubrick chalked it up to being forced in there by a publisher but it's fully intended to be there. However, Kubrick is absolutely right in that it makes a brilliant social commentary absolutely moot. Burgess insists it's the proper ending but what was the message then? Violence is a trend? It will fade away like the rubik's cube or disco after the target audience matures?
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#25
Quote by boreamor
A Clockwork Orange was a book and movie dedicated to showing that there is no diffence to violence, and legal violence. The main character killed, rapped, mugged, etc. That is illegal violence. In the end, he was subjected to moral and scientific cruelty to condition people to be ideal citizens, which made him defenceless. Two of his old friends, who were in his gang, became police officers and attacked him. Yet they got away with it.

Basically, read into more than just at face value. It's a wonderful film.


Perfect, except for the fact that only Dim became a police officer. Georgie died (though this is not mentioned in the movie) and Pete was, well you know if you've read the book.
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#26
Quote by TheIceCreamMan
Burgess absolutely hates A Clockwork Orange with a passion. If you get the new pressing (The cover is of flames and a screaming mouth) it includes both the 21st chapter and an intro by Burgess explaining how he's trapped with a book he hates and is embarrassed by. Well it's a classic whether he likes it or not.

Now, the 21st chapter, Kubrick was unaware of this until midway through filming as the American version at the time excluded it. Kubrick chalked it up to being forced in there by a publisher but it's fully intended to be there. However, Kubrick is absolutely right in that it makes a brilliant social commentary absolutely moot. Burgess insists it's the proper ending but what was the message then? Violence is a trend? It will fade away like the rubik's cube or disco after the target audience matures?


In the very end of the movie, when he says "I was cured", or something like that, it feels like he's just about to go outside the hospital and do everything again. Is he not guilty anymore? Or the political issues had taken his guilty to a second plan?

I'd say he's like the opposite of Josef K. from Kafka's "The Process". Both books discuss the law in a subjective way, with a main character being the law's victim and everything. I don't know if, in the end, Alex is supposed to be a victim like Josef K. was, tough.
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Last edited by YourMomToTheMaX at May 18, 2010,
#27
Quote by YourMomToTheMaX
In the very end of the movie, when he says "I was cured", or something like that, it feels like he's just about to go outside the hospital and do everything again. Is he not guilty anymore? Or the political issues had taken his guilty to a second plan?


Well, in the book, he is not a victim at the end.

The only undertone of this I could find in the film was the at the end, he is not raping the woman as he usually would with his friends, before he had been brainwashed. It seems more consensual.

But that's reading WAY too much into it.
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#28
Quote by TheIceCreamMan
Burgess absolutely hates A Clockwork Orange with a passion. If you get the new pressing (The cover is of flames and a screaming mouth) it includes both the 21st chapter and an intro by Burgess explaining how he's trapped with a book he hates and is embarrassed by. Well it's a classic whether he likes it or not.

Now, the 21st chapter, Kubrick was unaware of this until midway through filming as the American version at the time excluded it. Kubrick chalked it up to being forced in there by a publisher but it's fully intended to be there. However, Kubrick is absolutely right in that it makes a brilliant social commentary absolutely moot. Burgess insists it's the proper ending but what was the message then? Violence is a trend? It will fade away like the rubik's cube or disco after the target audience matures?


I read the 21st chapter:

I like to think that the story shows that like it or not, you and everyone around you will grow up. Some more than others.

I would put more thought and support into this, but I am to damn tired.
#29
Quote by Jackal58
Eye's Wide Shut would make my top 10 list of worst movies ever. I suppose my expectations were to high. His version of The Shining pretty much sucked too.

i agree, except eyes wide shut has the best orgy scene EVAR!!!!!!

reading the novel and then watching the movie was actually quite disappointing. i know i sound like a pretentious ass saying this, but still, that's how i generally feel about that particular movie.
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#30
Quote by paintITblack39
i agree, except eyes wide shut has the best orgy scene EVAR!!!!!!

reading the novel and then watching the movie was actually quite disappointing. i know i sound like a pretentious ass saying this, but still, that's how i generally feel about that particular movie.

I feel that way about most movies I've seen that are made from a novel I've read.
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#32
Quote by YourMomToTheMaX
I don't really know, but it was

Pointless violence, women getting raped and killed, and a stupid anti-hero who is super-cult because he likes Beethowen and has a snake as a pet?

Not the ingredients of a good movie, at least for me

I respect those who like it, but it pisses me off when I see someone with that guy's picture (Alex?) on MSN, for example.


You gotta look at it at a different angle, and Alex is one of those characters like the joker, who is undeniably evil, but has the charisma to stand out.
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#33
Quote by YourMomToTheMaX
In the very end of the movie, when he says "I was cured", or something like that, it feels like he's just about to go outside the hospital and do everything again. Is he not guilty anymore? Or the political issues had taken his guilty to a second plan?

I'd say he's like the opposite of Josef K. from Kafka's "The Process". Both books discuss the law in a subjective way, with a main character being the law's victim and everything. I don't know if, in the end, Alex is supposed to be a victim like Josef K. was, tough.


To answer your questions, you really just need to read the book to find out, because the movie isn't a good source for understanding what the story is really about.
#34
Quote by donender
You gotta look at it at a different angle, and Alex is one of those characters like the joker, who is undeniably evil, but has the charisma to stand out.


This discussion made me look at the movie at a different angle, yes. But this kind of charisma is exactly what I despise in the story. I don't think Alex does any good thing in the whole story. The ending makes me question his regret, too.
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My dog came into my room while I was fapping.
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#35
Quote by YourMomToTheMaX
I don't really know, but it was

Pointless violence, women getting raped and killed, and a stupid anti-hero who is super-cult because he likes Beethowen and has a snake as a pet?

Not the ingredients of a good movie, at least for me

I respect those who like it, but it pisses me off when I see someone with that guy's picture (Alex?) on MSN, for example.

You completely missed the concept of the film/story then. I apologize to everyone for your sad sad existence.

Anyway, I've been meaning to read more of Burgess' stuff, but I haven't gotten to it yet He really is a great writer.

But first, I have to go through a ton of Phillip K. Dick
#36
Quote by halo43
You completely missed the concept of the film/story then. I apologize to everyone for your sad sad existence.

Anyway, I've been meaning to read more of Burgess' stuff, but I haven't gotten to it yet He really is a great writer.

But first, I have to go through a ton of Phillip K. Dick


?

Is that really necessary? OMG HE DIDENT GET TEH MOVIE SORY GUYSE FOR HIS ESISTENSE


I don't know much about Phillip K. Dick, but I really want to get into his stuff. For some reason, my favourite band has a song called "Phillip K. Dick in the Pet-Section of a Walmart"

I've always wanted to know if they meant anything at all.
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Quote by shattamakar
My dog came into my room while I was fapping.
I couldn't look Wolfie in the eye for a week.
#37
Quote by YourMomToTheMaX
?

Is that really necessary? OMG HE DIDENT GET TEH MOVIE SORY GUYSE FOR HIS ESISTENSE


I don't know much about Phillip K. Dick, but I really want to get into his stuff. For some reason, my favourite band has a song called "Phillip K. Dick in the Pet-Section of a Walmart"

I've always wanted to know if they meant anything at all.

Huh... I'm pretty sure I spelled every word of that sentence correctly.

Anyway, moving on...

It's kind of crazy, imo, that A Clockwork Orange was published in '62 (weird story for those years) and was hated by Burgess himself, but I've always wondered if he liked Kubrick's interpretation... Anyone have any info on that? I sorta doubt it, but you never know...
#38
Quote by halo43
Huh... I'm pretty sure I spelled every word of that sentence correctly.

Anyway, moving on...

It's kind of crazy, imo, that A Clockwork Orange was published in '62 (weird story for those years) and was hated by Burgess himself, but I've always wondered if he liked Kubrick's interpretation... Anyone have any info on that? I sorta doubt it, but you never know...


No, I didn't mean the spelling I was just trying to reproduce the sentence like the 11 years old boy you sounded like would probably do.

I'm off to bed anyways, thanks everyone for the nice discussion. I'm about to change my mind about a few aspects of this story.
Seamonkey has my money!

Quote by shattamakar
My dog came into my room while I was fapping.
I couldn't look Wolfie in the eye for a week.
#39
Quote by YourMomToTheMaX
No, I didn't mean the spelling I was just trying to reproduce the sentence like the 11 years old boy you sounded like would probably do.

I'm off to bed anyways, thanks everyone for the nice discussion. I'm about to change my mind about a few aspects of this story.

Oh, then that shouldn't have been too hard, YourMomToTheMaX
#40
Quote by YourMomToTheMaX
No, I didn't mean the spelling I was just trying to reproduce the sentence like the 11 years old boy you sounded like would probably do.



Quote by halo43
Oh, then that shouldn't have been too hard, YourMomToTheMaX


This is getting pedantic, both of you stop this.
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