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#1
so our drummer has nothing to do while the rest of the band writes songs. what should he do, he is very bored and sometimes is disruptive while we are trying to create musical fusion?

do drummers help write songs besides rhythms?
#2
lol, my drummer and me usually do the song structure, is your drummer experimented ? Because I write a lot of song with my drummer
#3
Chris Cornell was the drummer for Soundgarden before he took Vocals fulltime.
I think his songwriting worked out pretty well for them...
#4
I'm not sure that this is a songwriting issue so much as it is a issue if he knows his position in the band. If he can contribute more than just rhythms, then by all means allow him to do so. If not then restrict him to drumming.
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#6
ok see thats what they do. they look for attention because they are behind the kit.

so heres what happens from now on, guitar, bass, other guitar, singer, pretty much who ever writes the songs get to geather at one of your pads and write music NOT AT PRACTICE!!!!
then go into practice with a whole song ready for him to make a drum beat to.


this will work ive had to do this in like 4 bands ive been in.
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#7
Quote by the_white_bunny
write music NOT AT PRACTICE!!!!
then go into practice with a whole song ready for him to make a drum beat to.


Yep, completely correct. Practice time is for practice. It's not for songwriting, learning or playing xbox (as I've seen some people post in this forum).
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#8
Quote by AlanHB
Yep, completely correct. Practice time is for practice. It's not for songwriting, learning or playing xbox (as I've seen some people post in this forum).


people go to a studio to play xbox?
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#9
Quote by AeolianWolf
people go to a studio to play xbox?


Kids who practice at their parents houses usually. I recall a drummer playing Rock Band during practice in one of the posts, and claiming it was practice
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#10
Actually you can write during practice... and its best to include the drummer in the planning. You might just get a new view of your song that really puts in a lot of new juice.

And writing in practice can really spark the creativity of the whole band. Yes, one guy may write a track and p[resent it to the band, at which point you all have to learn it in that practice session. If you just give everyone a disc of your track and say go learn that at home... then you not going to have a lot of happy campers round your bonfire... it may just be you hoisted in the middle of the flames and they are just roasting their marshmallows smiling at your distorted face.

You need to include everyone in the process and play in sections. Because you just don't know how things might turn out, where ideas lead to...

Besides... leaving any member out of the equation creates tension and upset puppies. Referring to drummers as the keepers of the beat... shame... what you don't understand is that he can make or break the song.
#11
The drummer sound be pretty important in the whole writing process as they can bring so much to the song in terms of dynamics and, tension and release.

If you think a drummer is just a guy who goes, thump thump tish thump thump tish, then you're mistaken.

Edit: I didn't read evolucians last paragraph before I wrote this
Last edited by MapOfYourHead at May 23, 2010,
#12
Quote by MapOfYourHead
The drummer sound be pretty important in the whole writing process as they can bring so much to the song in terms of dynamics and, tension and release.

If you think a drummer is just a guy who goes, thump thump tish thump thump tish, then you're mistaken.

Edit: I didn't read evolucians last paragraph before I wrote this

Seriously, I wish my drummer would know that he's not supposed to just go thump tish tish.
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#13
Quote by evolucian


Besides... leaving any member out of the equation creates tension and upset puppies. Referring to drummers as the keepers of the beat... shame... what you don't understand is that he can make or break the song.



yeah the song that has been written at not practice.
the drummer needs to hear the finished product then make his comments.
not make his comments and bang on the drums while every one els is trying to harmonize their guitar parts and come up with transitions in the melody of the song.

Practice time is PRACTICE TIME, not song writting time.
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#14
Quote by the_white_bunny
yeah the song that has been written at not practice.
the drummer needs to hear the finished product then make his comments.
not make his comments and bang on the drums while every one els is trying to harmonize their guitar parts and come up with transitions in the melody of the song.

Practice time is PRACTICE TIME, not song writting time.

I tend to disagree... Of course it can be a songwriting time at practice. If you become adamant that its not... and practice is practice where we do the songs we know and thats it... oh well... thats your call. But don't dictate it as "thats that". Some people like it the other way round. What works for you may not work for the next guy.

How long did these four bands of yours last by the way? Who left first? And because of?

Placing rules like that is somewhat nazi like. Of course you can write in your little safe home... but its a band decision that counts in the end. Not a self proclaimed second coming of christ on the sofa. When a band writes together on the basis of a "skeleton track".. thats what counts. Because everyone will have ideas as to where things can go and what needs to change. Primadonna's are prevalent everywhere nazi songwriters are... they'll have to get over it in the end. When you leave one member out of it... revolution will be at hand.
#15
If he is not in the writing circle, don't do it at practice. Meet seperately. However many band "ideas" are found in practice, learning to play together, and someone coming up with an idea, and everyone improvising upon it creatively. If that's an approach that you like, let him take part in it too, but when you shut the door on him what's he supposed to do, you've made him a second class citizen, and with him at the kit, that is NOT the time to start "working things out" if you are going to leave him sit there. Do it some other time when hes not there, then bring the song to him.

Or, you could find a way to include him in the writing. In my opinion evo is right, but bunny is also, it depends on the approach that your band wants to take, but play by the rules, don't make him sit there all ignored while "the more important guys" have a hand in the process, that's just lame.

So, put yourself in his shoes.

Best,

Sean
#16
generally song writting with a full band is agony, you're best of writting it with only a few members of the band, unless you find something you want to jam out. Generally good drummers can write drum parts very quickly, and tweak and change them as they go.
#17
Quote by UltimateDud
generally song writting with a full band is agony, you're best of writting it with only a few members of the band, unless you find something you want to jam out. Generally good drummers can write drum parts very quickly, and tweak and change them as they go.

So can a band of musicians write parts quickly... hence its a good thing to write as a band as well.

Something I wanted to add in earlier is that as a solo artist, yeah, you write the songs and the band has to do them. But once again... if you have a bunch of good muso's around you, writing collectively can be a great advantage in the dynamics of a song. When writing solo, you sometimes forget that.

It may be agony for some... as i outlined that type in my last post... but be open and listen... just now the drummer plays a groove and you find you use the same chords just matched to the groove this time and its worthy of a hit. Skeleton tracks are cool that way when you have seriously good muso's around. But as a band, I still reckon you write better.
#18
Quote by evolucian
I tend to disagree... Of course it can be a songwriting time at practice. If you become adamant that its not... and practice is practice where we do the songs we know and thats it... oh well... thats your call. But don't dictate it as "thats that". Some people like it the other way round. What works for you may not work for the next guy.

How long did these four bands of yours last by the way? Who left first? And because of?

Placing rules like that is somewhat nazi like. Of course you can write in your little safe home... but its a band decision that counts in the end. Not a self proclaimed second coming of christ on the sofa. When a band writes together on the basis of a "skeleton track".. thats what counts. Because everyone will have ideas as to where things can go and what needs to change. Primadonna's are prevalent everywhere nazi songwriters are... they'll have to get over it in the end. When you leave one member out of it... revolution will be at hand.



tell me how a drummer can help write a SONG... and i mean music with a melody?
ive never met one. you have song writting sessions where you come up with a song idea some IE: chords, a few riffs, what ever then you go into PRACTICE and say hey this is what i have and you play it. then the drummer starts jamming with you.

much easyer then coming up with riff on the spot, then getting every one to turn there guitars down/stop playing the drums, so you can teach every one a riff then have no where to go after that and hit a wall 45 seconds into practice.

if you have a song writting session where every one comes in and works on guitar parts, bass parts, lyric ideas, and its not loud and every thing isnt plugged in and being noisy then you'll come up with good THOUGHT OUT music, and also every one in the band will show up to practice knowing what they are supposed to play, and then the drummer can work on his drum parts (or practice the song if you will)


if you take your band serious, its like work, its a JOB, it isnt about every ones feelings, if there are up to 6 different opinions not every one is going to be made happy every time. you need to make this like work you dont go into practice and riff around, why? because that IS NOT PRACTICE!


EDIT: and if the drummer wont/cant come to the writting sessions then ONE of the other band mates when you meet at practice should go over the song idea(S) with him plugged in, BUT without every ones noise going at once.
the drummer should come and beat on his LAP when ever one is writting so he can get ideas as well, but 95% of the time they just do things of the cuff and get it done at practice in one or two trys.
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Last edited by the_white_bunny at May 24, 2010,
#19
Quote by evolucian

How long did these four bands of yours last by the way? Who left first? And because of?



well you see

i was in a band with
4 friends
me on guitar
one on guitar
one on bass
one on vox
and one on drums.
that started in 2006

Me the drummer and the bass player lived togeather.

the bass player was the weak link, he sucked at bass and did it for the girls.
we met another guy who played bass and we asked him to join/kicked out our first bass player.
that was about 6 months after we started the band.

our new bass player could not just jam, he had to have everything tabbed out, and was a college know it all dick.
so we got our old bass player back.
we played a show in our home town of about 13-15,000 people
and we had about 250 kids show up to see us
(well about 200 of them, we had a slip at the door and they had to say who they were there to see, and other band played too)

so after that show

our drummer and bass players heads got so big with ego that they didnt come to practice for 30 days!
so me
our guitar player
and vox
fired them, and we combined with another band we knew who was looking for vox bass and a 3rd guitar player.

so this line up in 2007 was
me bass
tp on guitar
Ta on guitar
Jc on guitar
Mg on vox
and
Ma on drums

now keep in mind
Ma and Ta are brothers.

so we start this band in 2007
pretty much the drummer is a huge dick, thinks he is the best thing to ever walk this planet(and he knows about 6 drum beats that he still uses in his current band).
after about 3 months he freaked out and said we all sucked and he was above us and such, so

every one Including his own brother said **** you, quit and we started a new band.
me on guitar
ta on guitar/drums
tp on guitar
Jc on guitar/drums
Mg on vox
and
Ec on bass
that was in 2007- 2009

that was our last line up, before i quit, and Jc quit.(both of us to go to school full time, and work on solo stuff)

after that they all stopped playing music and pretty much just hang out.
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Last edited by the_white_bunny at May 24, 2010,
#20
Lol... 30 days? Thats hectic.

A little heads up... I can see why you don't like drummers much... And I never said the drummer has to be behind his kit to partake in the songwriting. Tapping out stuff on his legs was par for the course.

The drummers I knew could hum too... in pitch... great ideas. The last drummer was a keys and git player too... and another drummer i jam with is a classical percussionist and virtually Virgil Donati behind the kit, minus a few years. Although he preferred being likened to Meshuggah's drummer rather than Virgil... Portnoy was a huge insult to him.. lol. Very talented, knows pitches too... and gave these awesome grooves with which to work with. That was one of the advantages of writing with a drummer at hand... grooves are oh so necessary in which to play between.

Like I say... excluding the drummer would be bad... unless he does not want to be there. Then its fine.

And you misinterpreted my other post. If you look at the highlighted part and then my first line in the opening... it should make sense to you.

And I still say you can write in practice too.
#21
Quote by the_white_bunny
tell me how a drummer can help write a SONG... and i mean music with a melody?
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure learning to play the drums doesn't destroy any ability you might have to come up with melodies in your head.
#22
Quote by zhilla
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure learning to play the drums doesn't destroy any ability you might have to come up with melodies in your head.



you know....your right, you may be wrong.
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#23
Quote by the_white_bunny
tell me how a drummer can help write a SONG...


...because a SONG includes harmony, melody AND rhythm.

Sorry, but I disagree roughly 100,000,000% with everything you've said so far in this thread.

With my band we write at practice- someone will come up with a riff and we'll all play parts to go with it, then if there are parts that are good we'll remember them and put them together in song form.

Right, the song isn't really finished until I write the lyrics to go with what I'm singing (or not in the case of an instrumental), but the main bulk of the song has been written by everyone IN PRACTICE.

It's just about learning to write by listening rather than by one person writing things down.
#24
Quote by the_white_bunny
you know....your right, you may be wrong.

She is right... you are wrong... because you are not reading. At all!

Learning to play a percussion instrument does not in any way inhibit your abilty to have a melody. Portnoy has melodies when he sings... does not mean he is limited to bashing a skin.

Terry Bozzio certainly knows pitches and melody... care to counter that? Get your head out your ass and listen... you might be surprised. And best you read zhilla's post again... you obviously are not reading correctly
#25
Quote by the_white_bunny
you know....your right, you may be wrong.


As far as I know, ambient music is a cheap excuse for lack of good melody so you must be a terrific drummer...
#26
Quote by Pillo114
As far as I know, ambient music is a cheap excuse for lack of good melody so you must be a terrific drummer...


Oh wow, excuse me while I wipe the tears of laughter from my eyes.
#27
I actually know a few drummers that are great writers.

To say that someone couldn't compose music strictly based on the instrument they play is foolishness.

Quote by zhilla
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure learning to play the drums doesn't destroy any ability you might have to come up with melodies in your head.



Exactly

If anything the sense of timing/rhythm should help.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at May 25, 2010,
#30
did someone just dis ambient music? some ambient music is really, really good. maybe not the type of genre you'd find complex rhythms in, but still really good.
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#31
Quote by AeolianWolf
did someone just dis ambient music? some ambient music is really, really good. maybe not the type of genre you'd find complex rhythms in, but still really good.


I did. I listen to ambient music from Feldman and Stockhausen, all the way through Eno and Aphex and I can tell you the vast majority of people nowadays who brag about making ambient music nowadays have the slightest idea of what they are doing. Holding swirly pads or putting slides here and there does not make ambient music, just a crude attempt at composing.
#32
Quote by Pillo114
I did. I listen to ambient music from Feldman and Stockhausen, all the way through Eno and Aphex and I can tell you the vast majority of people nowadays who brag about making ambient music nowadays have the slightest idea of what they are doing. Holding swirly pads or putting slides here and there does not make ambient music, just a crude attempt at composing.


i hardly think making ambient music is something to brag about, but some of it is still really good. but of course, no one genre is objectively good.
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#33
Quote by AeolianWolf
i hardly think making ambient music is something to brag about


Any form of music that is perceptively good within a particular culture is worth bragging about, that is of course, if you're the bragging type. And furthermore, to ignore an entire genres credibility because of its apparent simplicity is a pretty silly thing to do. Actually, why stop at ambient? "hm, that Chopin Nocturne is nice and all, but it's really just a playful melody streched out for a while, therefore, why take it seriously at all as a composition? Clearly this hack is just taking us all for a ride".
Last edited by MapOfYourHead at May 25, 2010,
#34
Quote by MapOfYourHead
Any form of music that is perceptively good within a particular culture is worth bragging about, that is of course, if you're the bragging type. And furthermore, to ignore an entire genres credibility because of its apparent simplicity is a very foolish and childish thing to do. Actually, why stop at ambient? "hm, that Chopin Nocturne is nice and all, but it's really just a playful melody streched out for a while, therefore, why take it seriously at all as a composition? Clearly this hack is just taking us all for a ride".


Yep I'm a big foolish child, I guess I should buy a set of drums as well and buy some ambient music CDs to soothe my foolishness...
#35
Quote by Pillo114
Yep I'm a big foolish child, I guess I should buy a set of drums as well and buy some ambient music CDs to soothe my foolishness...


You're just after saying you listen to and respect "proper" ambient music, which is why that doesn't really apply to you. Of course, you would've realised that had you not been overcome with the urge to post a sarcasic remark.

I also edited that childish thing out because it was wrong. Of course you would've also realised that if you had not had the window open for 20 minutes trying to think of a clever reply.
#37
Quote by RU Experienced?
Have him write lyrics like Neil Peart, only make sure the lyrics he writes are better than Neil Peart's.


ummm yeah
shred is gaudy music
#38
ok.?

also would like to point out that i find it odd that all of you assume that this drummer is like good or somthing, compared to portnoy, Terry Bozzio, ect.
obviously there are exceptions, but 85% of drummers cant pick up a guitar or bass and start playing in key. most cant even hum in key. you comparing mater drummers and musicans to a random 15 or 16 year old kid that beats on the drums.
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Last edited by the_white_bunny at May 25, 2010,
#39
Quote by MapOfYourHead
You're just after saying you listen to and respect "proper" ambient music, which is why that doesn't really apply to you. Of course, you would've realised that had you not been overcome with the urge to post a sarcasic remark.

I also edited that childish thing out because it was wrong. Of course you would've also realised that if you had not had the window open for 20 minutes trying to think of a clever reply.


I don't care about the childish comment, I just think it's ridiculous that people can claim that drummers can't compose melody. If that were a valid argument his music and pretty much all the music of most people who post in this forum including the intellectuals that dont make any, would all be considered "drummers".

edited out.

I'll make bunny a backing track, lets see who's the drummer.
Last edited by Pillo114 at May 25, 2010,
#40
Quote by Pillo114


I'll make bunny a backing track, lets see who's the drummer.



well if you are a good drummer that would explain your guitar work.
on second listen are you tone def as well?


now talk shit about my songs, not real ambiant, wheres the melody, ect.... i dont care.
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Last edited by the_white_bunny at May 25, 2010,
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