Page 1 of 2
#1
i can do 3:2 and 4:3 pretty well. but what's the subdivision breakdown for 3:4. i'm trying to figure it out but my brain is fried at the moment from vicodin (prescription!).

edit: nevermind my example off what i thought it was. i miscounted that.

if y'all could just write out a four beat bar in sixteenth notes (1 e + a, etc.) and bold the ones to put three over it, i'd appreshamatate it.
#DTWD
#2
one two three one two three one two three one two three

like a waltz piece
#3
if i understand what you're asking, then:

1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a (underlined, easier to spot)

really, the second beat of the three should be between the second "e" and the second "+", but i doubt anyone will call you on it.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#4
Quote by AeolianWolf
if i understand what you're asking, then:

1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a (underlined, easier to spot)

really, the second beat of the three should be between the second "e" and the second "+", but i doubt anyone will call you on it.


Thats the beginning of a 5:4
#5
Quote by tubatom868686
Thats the beginning of a 5:4


how can that be?
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#6
Quote by bbetances
one two three one two three one two three one two three

like a waltz piece




i'm sorry. no offense.
#DTWD
#7
Quote by AeolianWolf
how can that be?


1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a 1 e + a 2 e + a

See how every 5th 16th note is accented? Its 5:4

EDIT: Oh, my bad, misread your post

TS, your looking for

1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a
Last edited by tubatom868686 at May 24, 2010,
#8
Quote by tubatom868686
1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a 1 e + a 2 e + a

See how every 5th 16th note is accented? Its 5:4

EDIT: Oh, my bad, misread your post


wait. wouldn't 5:4 have five beats within the four beats and meet together again on one?
#DTWD
#9
Quote by tubatom868686
TS, your looking for

1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a


this. i gave you 4:3, haha.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#10
Quote by primusfan
wait. wouldn't 5:4 have five beats within the four beats and meet together again on one?


No, its still 5/4. See, the underlined notes are actually the quarter notes so to speak. Standard notation doesnt allow for the easy writing of poly rhythms, so you have to do silly things to get them to make sense. In this case the 5 tuplet is actually notated as 16th notes because theres no other way when using the "1 e and a" nomenclature. If you think of the underlined notes as the downbeats, it will make sense though

If you go back and read the 4:3 with that in mind, then you see how it becomes 3:4. Essentially, 4:3 and 3:4 are the same poly rhythm. They are only different when you have rhythmic context around them

EDIT: A.Wolf, I know, I was about to go back and give you credit
Last edited by tubatom868686 at May 24, 2010,
#11
Quote by tubatom868686


1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a


that's 4:3. not 3:4.

edit: ^ ooooh. well. i guess useless thread is useless then since i already know 4:3.

thanks!
#DTWD
#12
Quote by primusfan
that's 4:3. not 3:4.


But 3:4 and 4:3 are essentially the same poly rhythm. Tap 4 in your right hand and the 3 in your left. Notice how your left hand is doing half note triplets in comparison to your right?
#13
Are we talking Polyrhythm or Polymeter?

All of the examples have been polymeter.

Polyrhythm would be a typical 3:4, rather than a 5/4 over a 4/4 or a 3/4 over a 4/4 and so on.

TS: It's rather hard to evenly space 3 text codes in the space of 4... but I'll try:


3 -||: 1   is  a   |2   is  a   :||
:
4 -||: 1  e  &  a  |2  e  &  a  :||    

NOTE: THE 3 OVER THE 4 IS [color="RED"]NOT[/COLOR] A TIME SIGNATURE. 
IT IS RATHER HOW MANY NOTES ARE PLAYED. THE TIME SIGNATURE WOULD BE 2/4 GIVEN IT'S A 3:4.


This would be a 3:4.
#14
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Are we talking Polyrhythm or Polymeter?

All of the examples have been polymeter.

Polyrhythm would be a typical 3:4, rather than a 5/4 over a 4/4 or a 3/4 over a 4/4 and so on.

TS: It's rather hard to evenly space 3 text codes in the space of 4... but I'll try:


3 -||: 1 is a |2 is a :||
:
4 -||: 1 e & a |2 e & a :||

NOTE: THE 3 OVER THE 4 IS [color="RED"]NOT[/COLOR] A TIME SIGNATURE.
IT IS RATHER HOW MANY NOTES ARE PLAYED. THE TIME SIGNATURE WOULD BE 2/4 GIVEN IT'S A 3:4.


This would be a 3:4.


Any polyrhytm can be simplified into a polymeter, all you need is a common denominator. In fact, that is the most common way to learn polyrhythms. Say you wanna learn 5:4. You write out 20 16th notes. First put accents on every fourth 16th note. Now put accents on every fifth 16th note. Now play one set of accents in your right hand and the other accents in the left. Once your comfortable, remove the filler 16th notes and play only the accents. Baboom, theres your polyrhythm; and you learned it because you essentially played a poly meter of 5/4 and 4/4
Last edited by tubatom868686 at May 24, 2010,
#17
Quote by tubatom868686
Any polyrhytm can be simplified into a polymeter, all you need is a common denominator. In fact, that is the most common way to learn polyrhythms. Say you wanna learn 5:4. You write out 20 16th notes. First put accents on every fourth 16th note. Now put accents on every fifth 16th note. Now play one set of accents in your right hand and the other accents in the left. Once your comfortable, remove the filler 16th notes and play only the accents. Baboom, theres your polyrhythm; and you learned it because you essentially played a poly meter of 5/4 and 4/4

That would just be accenting different beats in different lines. How is that a polyrhythm? Polyrhythm and polymeter are not synonymous, as I'm sure you know.
#18
Quote by DiminishedFifth
That would just be accenting different beats in different lines. How is that a polyrhythm? .


Polyrhythm is the simultaneous sounding of two or more independent rhythms.
#DTWD
#19
Quote by DiminishedFifth
That would just be accenting different beats in different lines. How is that a polyrhythm? Polyrhythm and polymeter are not synonymous, as I'm sure you know.


Your right, they are not synonymous. But they are heavily related.

If you dont believe me, try the exercise with a simple 4:3 polyrhythm. Youll notice that the outcome is the same as if you just thought of a ratio of 4 to 3.

EDIT: Btw, what were technically talking about is cross rhythms. But everyone just calls them polyrhythms, so it doesnt matter
Last edited by tubatom868686 at May 24, 2010,
#20
Quote by primusfan
Polyrhythm is the simultaneous sounding of two or more independent rhythms.

Two lines of 16th notes are not independent rhythms if they're still being played at the same time but with different accents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Polyrhythm.png

A 3:2 polyrhythm. This is NOT a 12/8 over a 4/4.
#21
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Two lines of 16th notes are not independent rhythms if they're still being played at the same time but with different accents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Polyrhythm.png

A 3:2 polyrhythm. This is NOT a 12/8 over a 4/4.


No, no ones saying that, because to say that is to assume that they 8th note is constant.

Not if you were saying 12/8 over 8/8 where the dotted quarter note equals quarter note, then I would say you are essentially playing a very slow poly rhythm

But thats still not really what I was saying

Try my method with the 4:3.

1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a

You may view this as a poly meter, but when you remove the unnaccented beats, are you not left with three note values occupying the same space as four different note values? And is that not essentially the definition of a polyrhythm?
Last edited by tubatom868686 at May 24, 2010,
#22
Quote by tubatom868686
No, no ones saying that, because to say that is to assume that they 8th note is constant.

Not if you were saying 12/8 over 8/8 where the dotted quarter note equals quarter note, then I would say you are essentially playing a very slow poly rhythm

But thats still not really what I was saying

Just to clear it up.. I'll show you what I imagined:


5/4: [color="red"]1[/color] e & a 2 [color="red"]e[/color] & a 3 e & [color="red"]a[/color] 4 e & a [color="red"]5[/color] e & a
4/4: [color="red"]1[/color] e & a [color="red"]2[/color] e & a [color="red"]3[/color] e & a [color="red"]4[/color] e & a


so on and so forth

EDIT:

Oh, I get it. It was a misunderstanding on both of our parts. We're talking about the same things, just two different ways to get there.
Last edited by DiminishedFifth at May 24, 2010,
#23
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Just to clear it up.. I'll show you what I imagined:


5/4: [color="red"]1[/color] e & a 2 [color="red"]e[/color] & a 3 e & [color="red"]a[/color] 4 e & a [color="red"]5[/color] e & a
4/4: [color="red"]1[/color] e & a [color="red"]2[/color] e & a [color="red"]3[/color] e & a [color="red"]4[/color] e & a


so on and so forth

EDIT:

Oh, I get it. It was a misunderstanding on both of our parts. We're talking about the same things, just two different ways to get there.


Which is essentially whats going on. But, when you remove those filler notes, and play only the accented notes, would you not agree that you are playing a 5:4 polyrhythm?

EDIT: Lol, yea. Im not a good explainer, so its my bad
#24
Quote by tubatom868686
Which is essentially whats going on. But, when you remove those filler notes, and play only the accented notes, would you not agree that you are playing a 5:4 polyrhythm?

EDIT: Lol, yea. Im not a good explainer, so its my bad

S'all good man

well... now TS has two ways of looking at it!
#26
sorry to jump in at the dead end... but 3:4... well... make em 16th triplets and then on 1 - 9 - 17.

If its been resolved then oh well... my bad
#27
Quote by tubatom868686
Say you wanna learn 5:4. You write out 20 16th notes. First put accents on every fourth 16th note. Now put accents on every fifth 16th note. Now play one set of accents in your right hand and the other accents in the left.


How is this not 2 independent rhythms?
#28
I THINK I know what polyrythms and polymeters are... though maybe not....

Does a polyrythm happen when you play for example on 4/4 groupings of 3 and groupings of two (like the image DiminishedFifth showed), or 16ths and 16th quintuplets?

And would a polymeter be two, or more, simultaneous lines going at the same speed with the same division (for instance 8ths) but being accentuated on different times?

For example, in the game Mass Effect there's a little piece (when you use the galactic map) that has two (well, more, but two main) melodies, one of 8 notes that repeat itself and another of 6 notes that repeat itself.
Basically it would be
123456781234567812345678
123456123456123456123456
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpu5cTk_qvI here's the music I mean (first melody starts on 0.07 and second 0.17).


Is this correct? ^
I thank you for the time you took reading. And listening to the cute music :3
Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.
You wither, and die. I am eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Kurai.
#29
A polyrhythm is two contrasting rhythms. So something like straight quavers against triplet quavers.

Or a group of 5 quintuplets against 4 semiquavers.
#30
Quote by griffRG7321
A polyrhythm is two contrasting rhythms. So something like straight quavers against triplet quavers.

Or a group of 5 quintuplets against 4 semiquavers.



lol, exactly the same examples I gave, but with english names XD

Thanks! And is my idea of polymeters is correct?


Also, say you have a rythm going at 120bmp and another goig 164, like playing two unrelated songs at the same time.
Does that have any name and place in this topic?
Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.
You wither, and die. I am eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Kurai.
#31
Quote by Kurai X
Thanks! And is my idea of polymeters is correct?


no. polymeter uses two different time signatures (meters) entirely. that's the most distinguishing factor between polyrhythms and polymeters.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#32
Quote by AeolianWolf
no. polymeter uses two different time signatures (meters) entirely. that's the most distinguishing factor between polyrhythms and polymeters.



Ahhh... I see
How about the example I gave? Can they be considered different melodies in different time signatures?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpu5cTk_qvI
Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.
You wither, and die. I am eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Kurai.
#33
Just count 'banana' and 'information' between beats depending on if you want quarter triplets on eights, etc
#34
Quote by Kurai X
Ahhh... I see
How about the example I gave? Can they be considered different melodies in different time signatures?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpu5cTk_qvI


that's neither polyrhythm or polymeter.


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1 2 3 4 ~ 6 ~ 8


the first line is straight eighths, the second uses two quarter notes and four eighth notes. they're both 4/4.

i like it, though. sounds nice.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Last edited by AeolianWolf at May 24, 2010,
#35
Quote by AeolianWolf
that's neither polyrhythm or polymeter.


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1 2 3 4 ~ 6 ~ 8


the first line is straight eighths, the second uses two quarter notes and four eighth notes. they're both 4/4.

i like it, though. sounds nice.



What?
I'm refering to the melody starting at 0.07 and the one at 0.17
G-F-D-Bb-D-C-D-D' repeats
G-Bb-G-C-G-D repeats

So consider those two lines, they don't last the same, they play over in different places, couldn't that be 4/4 and 3/4?


And yeah! Imagine charting your route around the galaxy while listening to that ! /happy face
Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.
You wither, and die. I am eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Kurai.
Last edited by Kurai X at May 25, 2010,
#36
Quote by Kurai X
What?
I'm refering to the melody starting at 0.07 and the one at 0.17
G-F-D-Bb-D-C-D-D' repeats
G-Bb-G-C-G-D repeats

So consider those two lines, they don't last the same, they play over in different places, couldn't that be 4/4 and 3/4?


wow, i was hearing something totally different before. i hear what you're saying now. yeah, that's 4/4 and 3/4. i was listening to two different melodies before - i wasn't paying attention to the one you had in question. my bad.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#37
In reading a few of the responses... I had to stop cos you guys were confusing the shite outta me. 3:4 means 3 quarters in the space of 4... correct? So if the example is in 4/4 or 5/4... in 4/4 you have three notes occupying that space... in 5/4 you would have three notes in the space of the first four followed by another quarter to make it a complete 5/4.

Am I really missing something here? Like my other reply, 3:4 can be found via using 16th trips and your notes fall on the 1 - 9 - 17... effectively that is 3 in the space of 4, and it is equally spaced.

As for the rest, you have managed to confuse me completely in that it makes no sense to me the routes you chose. Maybe its just early morning and I need more coffee... after 3rd cup I'll brave opening the polyrhythm book and scouting if what you guys said made any sense.

edit: and seeing as this relates to this thread, http://www.vai.com/LittleBlackDots/tempomental.html
Last edited by evolucian at May 25, 2010,
#39
ok... I know that 3:4 is the same type... and the way i described it isn't incorrect. So if we take a solo instrument (as in guitar or any other instrument where only one hand can sound at a time), playing against a 4/4 pulse, and we play 3 in the space of four... we are in effect doing the same thing.

Of course if we take tapping into account... we could do like that piano track... where right would play trips and left would go on 8ths... and then you'd be your own king.

But the explanation of how its done is the same
Last edited by evolucian at May 25, 2010,
Page 1 of 2