#1
Alright, so a little while ago, I was asking how to write lyrics better, and the tips people posted helped me a lot! Now I need to learn to write the instrumental part for my newly good lyrics! I can figure out a great beat very easily on drums, but all the other instruments I'm having trouble with.

I can usually only get one good riff on guitar, then I'm stuck. Most the time the riff isn't even that good either

Writing on the piano is even worse because I don't know how to write even simple melodie things with that!

When I try to write the bass part, it always sonds just like someones trying to play it like a guitar, probably because I'm trying to play it like a guitar.

So if anyone has any tips on how to write songs with the guitar, piano, bass or just song writting in general that would help a TON!
#2
I know this sounds really rediculous, and I will probably catch all kinds of Hell from other people, but, have you tried NOT thinking about it? Just letting it happen on its own?
Seriously, it works for me when I get stuck writing. I don't know what to call it, but if I just let my mind go blank, it creates itself. Meditative creativity? Channeling? It's hard to explain. I will hear the music in my mind long before I hear it with my ears.
I am a firm believer that music is the voice of the soul. We can't hear what it has to say if we are so focused on thinking instead of listening.
Don't know what it is, but, I found that thinking about it too much, just stresses you out and frustration makes things worse.
#3
Quote by Raven Wilde
I know this sounds really rediculous, and I will probably catch all kinds of Hell from other people, but, have you tried NOT thinking about it? Just letting it happen on its own?
Seriously, it works for me when I get stuck writing. I don't know what to call it, but if I just let my mind go blank, it creates itself. Meditative creativity? Channeling? It's hard to explain. I will hear the music in my mind long before I hear it with my ears.
I am a firm believer that music is the voice of the soul. We can't hear what it has to say if we are so focused on thinking instead of listening.
Don't know what it is, but, I found that thinking about it too much, just stresses you out and frustration makes things worse.


You're addressing the problem as if he is talking about having writer's block, when that's not the case at all. The problem is that he doesn't know HOW to write music.

First off, do you know music theory? If not, it'd be an awesome idea to learn. Then, the best thing I can tell you to do is to go buy a book on composition and read it.

With your bass problem, it sounds like you don't have enough experience playing bass, and that's why you end up just playing it like a guitar.

I personally find the piano millions of times easier than guitar. There's an order to it that doesn't exist on guitar. I find it easier to see the patterns on a piano.
Today I feel electric grey
I hope tomorrow, neon black
#4
I was addressing the problem he was having with the guitar. I should have been more specific, Sorry, my bad,

As for the rest it sounds like he's got too many Irons in the fire. Master one instrument before trying to conquer the others.

Ganoosh is right about educating yourself. The info is possibly somewhere on this site somewhere, or out there on the net for sure..
#5
Quote by Raven Wilde
I know this sounds really rediculous, and I will probably catch all kinds of Hell from other people, but, have you tried NOT thinking about it? Just letting it happen on its own?
Seriously, it works for me when I get stuck writing. I don't know what to call it, but if I just let my mind go blank, it creates itself. Meditative creativity? Channeling? It's hard to explain. I will hear the music in my mind long before I hear it with my ears.
I am a firm believer that music is the voice of the soul. We can't hear what it has to say if we are so focused on thinking instead of listening.
Don't know what it is, but, I found that thinking about it too much, just stresses you out and frustration makes things worse.


That actually sounds like a good idea, but when your mind is going blank do you just mess around on the guitar and see what you come up with while your mind is all blank and stuff, or are you not even playing anything, and just kind of paying attention to what you come up with? I'll probably try both for now.

Quote by Ganoosh
You're addressing the problem as if he is talking about having writer's block, when that's not the case at all. The problem is that he doesn't know HOW to write music.

First off, do you know music theory? If not, it'd be an awesome idea to learn. Then, the best thing I can tell you to do is to go buy a book on composition and read it.

With your bass problem, it sounds like you don't have enough experience playing bass, and that's why you end up just playing it like a guitar.

I personally find the piano millions of times easier than guitar. There's an order to it that doesn't exist on guitar. I find it easier to see the patterns on a piano.


I do know a little music theory, I'm not sure if I know enogh though so I'll check that out. You're probably right about the bass, I've only been playing that for about a month now, and I'm not very good at that yet. I actually find the guitar patterns easier than the piano, even though I've been playing paino longer, I guess thats more of a personal preference thing, thanks for the advise tough!
#6
sites.nick,
Here's a little helpful advice from "Raven's Book of Wilde Theory".

I looked at your profile, you're pretty young so this is probably going to sound like new age way out hippie shit so.....so what

Set yourself down someplace where you are REALLY comfortable, both physically and psychologically. Somplace quiet, where you will not be interrupted or distracted by things going on around you. You can have your guitar with you if you like, but don't set down and start plucking around trying to force the music out of it. Just hold it. If the music comes then play, but like I mentioned earlier, you will hear it in your mind long before you hear it with your ears.
Dim the lights, or even better shut them off and use a candle, focusing on the flame helps you go blank, zone out, and open your mind.
You need to become totally relaxed physically, before your mind can relax.
"You have to let your body sleep, to let your soul live on......."
OOPS! Sorry, broke into some Sabbath there, but it's true, I AM NOT saying kill yourself.. But you get the point, right? Like I said before, you can't hear what your Soul has to say if your body and mind are talking over it. That IS a kick ass tune though! LOVE IT!!
Ok, now where was I before my A.D.D. kicked in? Oh yeah...
Relax your body completely, so that you don't even know it's there. If you don't know how, just e-mail me and I'll tell you in detail how, too lengthy for a "quick reply" post.
Being able to relax to the point of becomming a borderline vegetable (without chemical assistance...sorry) is the most important part of the entire process of allowing you to hear what your Soul needs to say.
Once your body is relaxed and your mind is clear DO NOT THINK OF ANYTHING, just listen. At some point the lyrics to your song might pop into your head out of nowhere, maybe not. You might hear just a faint drum rythym, might be something totally different from what you already have. You might hear guitars. You might pick up your guitar and belt out somethng incredible without even being conciously aware that you even picked it up.
I can't tell you for sure what will happen, but it will. It might take you a couple of times doing it just to learn how to "Zone Out" to the point of mind/body seperation.
The one thing that I CAN tell you with absolute certainty is that it DOES work.
If you need any help, or if I went full blown hippie on you and lost you somewhere along the way, feel free to send me a message anytime and I'll be more than happy to help you.
Good luck and enjoy your journey...
Raven
#7
I tried it yesterday! and ya it's pretty hippie, but it helped me come up with a really good start for a song! I'm not exactly sure I was all the way "Blank Minded" but it helped me so I wasn't so stressed the whole time so thanks!
Quote by leg end

"Roses are red,
Violets are bitchin'
Goddammit woman,
get back in the kitchen"
#8
Quote by Raven Wilde
sites.nick,
Here's a little helpful advice from "Raven's Book of Wilde Theory".

I looked at your profile, you're pretty young so this is probably going to sound like new age way out hippie shit so.....so what

Set yourself down someplace where you are REALLY comfortable, both physically and psychologically. Somplace quiet, where you will not be interrupted or distracted by things going on around you. You can have your guitar with you if you like, but don't set down and start plucking around trying to force the music out of it. Just hold it. If the music comes then play, but like I mentioned earlier, you will hear it in your mind long before you hear it with your ears.
Dim the lights, or even better shut them off and use a candle, focusing on the flame helps you go blank, zone out, and open your mind.
You need to become totally relaxed physically, before your mind can relax.
"You have to let your body sleep, to let your soul live on......."
OOPS! Sorry, broke into some Sabbath there, but it's true, I AM NOT saying kill yourself.. But you get the point, right? Like I said before, you can't hear what your Soul has to say if your body and mind are talking over it. That IS a kick ass tune though! LOVE IT!!
Ok, now where was I before my A.D.D. kicked in? Oh yeah...
Relax your body completely, so that you don't even know it's there. If you don't know how, just e-mail me and I'll tell you in detail how, too lengthy for a "quick reply" post.
Being able to relax to the point of becomming a borderline vegetable (without chemical assistance...sorry) is the most important part of the entire process of allowing you to hear what your Soul needs to say.
Once your body is relaxed and your mind is clear DO NOT THINK OF ANYTHING, just listen. At some point the lyrics to your song might pop into your head out of nowhere, maybe not. You might hear just a faint drum rythym, might be something totally different from what you already have. You might hear guitars. You might pick up your guitar and belt out somethng incredible without even being conciously aware that you even picked it up.
I can't tell you for sure what will happen, but it will. It might take you a couple of times doing it just to learn how to "Zone Out" to the point of mind/body seperation.
The one thing that I CAN tell you with absolute certainty is that it DOES work.
If you need any help, or if I went full blown hippie on you and lost you somewhere along the way, feel free to send me a message anytime and I'll be more than happy to help you.
Good luck and enjoy your journey...
Raven



I'm sorry for everything I'm about to say, and I normally wouldn't put anyone down like this but I refuse to let you give this dude that kind of advice. Who are you, Jack Black? You sound like him. Quite honestly, I believe that you are spewing liquefied bullshit out of every orifice in your body.

The creation of art is above all else an expression of self. But in order to express yourself, it's a matter of an APPLICATION OF SKILL. Not letting your "soul" speak to you. That's bullshit. To expect to sit down and let some great work of art just "come to you" is completely idiotic. It's not just going to happen. Sure, you may be inspired, but not from essentially sitting down to meditate. Meditation is the exact opposite of inspiration. The purpose is to clear your mind. If you have absolutely nothing on your mind, how the hell do you expect to be inspired? You want something to just pop into your head, or maybe your soul will just spoon feed it to you and all the notes, exactly how they're meant to be, will just flow out of your guitar? Maybe in books and movies and bullshit songs by Black Sabbath, but not in the real world. You become inspired, you have an idea, then it's up to you to apply your SKILL or TALENT and use it to create something from your idea. No great work of art by any great artist has ever just "come from the soul". It's all because they're very talented, skillful, persevering, dedicated individuals who are just naturally very creative people. Sitting down and expecting stuff to just pop into your head will get you absolutely nowhere.

So TS, wanna know how to really write music? Practice, and practice. And practice. Just do it and do it and do it and don't worry about if it sucks because for awhile, it will suck no matter what. But that's why you practice. Do not just sit down and let shit come to you. It doesn't work. It's counterproductive.

It's an application of skill. Not enough people realize that, and you have people like this guy telling everyone that shit has to come from your soul, as if Dionysus will just plop stuff down into your mind. If this were possible, then everyone would be writing beautiful symphonies, painting masterpieces, writing poetry that makes the entire world cry oceans. But it's not like that.


And Raven, you need to come down to the real world and stop feeding people that Soul with a capital S crap. It's not helping anyone.
Today I feel electric grey
I hope tomorrow, neon black
Last edited by Ganoosh at May 27, 2010,
#10
Hey Nick,

Dude, nothing wrong with simple at all. In fact, my ability to produce and compose far outweighs my ability to actually play the guitar. Which as you might guess, is a bit of a problem sometimes. So for the most part, I tend to stick to what I know. I then write myself some really simple riffs, try to play them in different ways and with tiny variations and then see what they sound like in context.

BASIC RIFFS
The simple riffs are often the most effective, and if you can write good drum beats, can often change the whole feel of the riff you are playing. So try to vary the tempo of the drums, fast-into-slow on the same riff, and vary the pace of the track. Once you have your basic riff and a few variations with your drums, try some overlays.

BASIC OVERLAYS
With your basic riff, try some high-scale melodies. Keep them simple, and in the same key. So if you are playing a riff in G, go up a few octaves and pluck a little solo riff while the main rhythm is playing.

PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER
Keep it basic. Structure your songs into a formula that will help you see how to compose a full, complete song. It's only temporary, after all, and you can vary it after you get a little more confident. Try it like this;

Intro >> Chorus (Intro) >> Verse >> Bridge >> Chorus >> Verse >> Bridge >> Chorus (END)

This a very basic structure, in which you only really need to write 3 riffs for (The Chorus, the Bridge and the Verse.) Practice, keep it basic, and then you can move onto more interesting composition and writing after you get more confident.

The best thing to do when trying to expand your playing ability, to reflect your composition ability, is to compose riffs that are just slightly out of your reach. (For example, a riff you need to concentrate while playing, or that you can only play for a few bars before going out of time.)

Keep pushing the envelope, and keep pushing just that little bit -more- than what you know. Keep it simple... but always try to get the best out of yourself.

Hope I helped. I know it's a long message. Let me know how you get on, and link me to any new tracks you make.

Laters!
~KB
#11
Nick,
I'm glad it worked for you. That hippie shit aint so bad huh. The whole point was to get rid of your stress. You can't think clearly, and stay on track if you've got 100 irrelevant things flying around in your head.
Plus,ya get some down time to just chill. Bet you were feelin pretty good when you came out of it. When you have been doin it awhile you will be surprised at what is in your head.
I wish you luck and success...just keep at it, never give up, and dont let anyone tear you down!
Everyone has there own method that works for them. It doesn't hurt to try something different if you get stuck. Sometimes it'll kickstart ya and get ya goin again.
Raven


Ganoosh,
You are 16 years old, and from the looks of your profile pic, I would say that you are 2 bong hits away from totally useless.
You are rude and arrogant and the ego has got to go!
Stop being an ASS to people. THAT is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE!

The guy asked for help, and you do what?
First you insult him by telling him he does not know HOW to write music and tell him to buy a book.....WTF?? Will a magical song just pop up out of it....
Well NO SHIT.... What was his question again?
Here let me refresh that last dying brain cell of yours....

So if anyone has any tips on how to write songs with the guitar, piano, bass or just song writting in general that would help a TON!

I do not see anything about a request for a rude and insulting response in there.

Your post seems to be information that you have read somewhere, and then stirred it up and regurgitated it.

As for "Naturally Creative People" where do you think their NATURAL creativity comes from? A BOOK??
Now...Think about that? It comes from THE MIND....MAAAAANNN! A part of the mind that you cannot access apparently if you rely on books.

You have ALOT to learn about true creative process and how to reach so deep inside your mind to pull out ideas, and if you go way way in there the really dark and twisted shit awaits. Why do you think TRUE artists are so ****ed up in the head? I dont think its from reading a book..

I have been CREATING.....THEN applying my SKILL and TALENT to bring it to life long before you were even born.
The really cool part of NOT being in the "Real World" is....I GET PAID TO ZONE OUT!
****in AWESOME....MAAAANNN

Ganoosh,
before I block your rude arrogant ass. A bit of advice....NEVER piss off a WITCH!
I curse you. You will NEVER succeed. You will remain a miserable failure. And just for kicks because I'm a spaced out bitch.....All your shit will be stolen, except for your book. Happy Reading
Also, Take a Lesson in manners and appropriate forum etiquette from
APEX

FRIENDLY, HELPFUL, NON-INSULTING OR RUDE.

APEX

Nice work! Very informative, well organized, clearly worded and easily understood .
You were supportive and encouraging as well. That is nice to see

Dmt8jr
Nothin wrong with with a lil smoke I'm all for it
But Smokin yourself RETARDED is a TOTALLY different story, or a maybe song :P
#12
Just gonna clear some things up real quick. I'll even number it this time so you can follow what I'm saying, mkay?

1. I've never touched a single drug in my life, so I don't appreciate you trying to tell me how many brain cells I have left, because I have almost all of them.. I've never even been drunk. I don't believe in putting things in my body that weren't meant to be there. Way to base an argument off of assumptions made completely at surface-value. I applaud you.

2. I did not insult him by saying he doesn't know how to write music. Even if he hadn't said it himself already, it wouldn't have been an insult. Saying someone can't do something that they have already acknowledged that they can't do is not an insult. It's an observation.

Quote by sites.nick
if anyone has any tips on how to write songs with the guitar, piano, bass


3.
Quote by Raven Wilde
I do not see anything about a request for a rude and insulting response in there.


Nor do I see anything requesting bullshit about opening your mind.

4. If you have really been applying your skill and talent, then you certainly haven't been sitting down and meditating until shit pops into your head, because there's no skill involved in that. Because you know why? It doesn't fucking work. I meditate regularly. It does nothing but put you in an extremely tranquil state of mind. Very relaxing? Yes. Stress relieving? Yes. Does music play in my head and I pick up my guitar and start belting out some killer riff? Never.

5. You are 41 years old. From the looks of it, your psychological development came to a grinding halt around the age of 13 or 14. Had you actually had the maturity of a 40-something meditating fairy wizard, you would have seen that I was trying to make sure this kid didn't get some horrible advice. I minimally insulted you. Then you took it and made it personal. That was so mature of you, Mr. Grown Up.


I won't even comment further on the whole Soul with a capital S, clear your mind and shit. You are literally too stupid to argue with. There are so many holes in everything you just said it would take me a couple hours to pick through them all and point them out to you.

And I'll assume/hope that you're kidding about being a witch.

Have a nice day.
Today I feel electric grey
I hope tomorrow, neon black
Last edited by Ganoosh at May 28, 2010,
#13
This thread is funny as shit to the OP, I gotta agree Ganoosh it truely is the application of skill and takes hours and hours of practice and perseverance. On your bass riffs try to compliment your guitar lines by doing something different but in the same key or a relative key. Sometimes playing the same old chord tones get old try the harmonic minor scale and maybe some diminished stuff if you don't know what that stuff is learn some theory!
#14
I find this thread quite amusing as well. That's why I keep coming back.
You can't fire someone up without throwin a little gas on 'em

In the short time that I have been playing in here, I HAVE learned why so many bands split up due to "Artistic Differences" A.K.A Clash of the Egos.

Yes, practice and perseverence, builds skill. Hundreds of hours practicing takes alot of dedication. I agree 100%.
This is what I'm stuck on though. How can you practice something that hasn't yet been created? How does "Theory" apply to something that doesn't yet exist??

I am interested in how everyone elses mind works now.. Please enlighten this "Space Witch" if you don't mind.
For example: You write a song that is so moving that it evokes an emotional response just by reading it. Now, how do you all come up with an intrumental piece that will be just as moving? It has to intertwine perfectly with the lyrics and convey the same emotion.
How would y'all do that? Where does this music come from?
Do NOT say a BOOK....LOL!

Every single musician or writer has a creative process that is uniquely their own.
There are structural rules that apply to every art form (theory), but aside from that, the possibilities are endless. Otherwise, everthing would just be a clone.

What works for one, might not work for another. After a while, what has been working for someone for so long, doesn't work anymore. It happens, it is inevitable.
Why are so many so dead set against trying a new method? Stagnation is definately not going to work... Change is a good thing, it is an opportunity to learn and expand your knowledge.

Adapt or Die, there really are no other choices. If you listen to ANY musician or band that has been around for at least 5 years (or more) You can hear a slight difference in their music with every Record/CD they release. With time they learn different techniques, and EVOLVE. Granted there are a few that totally miss the mark an DEVOLVE, but then again, Evolution is all about Survival of the fittest.


Ganoosh
I apologize for accusing you of smoking pot. You do look stoned off your ass though.
You are a very angry boy, I do not know why you feel the need to take your anger out on other people. Being nice works a HELL of alot better, than showing your ass.
Re-read some of your posts, EVERY one of them has some sort of backhanded insult to someone in it. The way you come across in your posts has the air of arrogance and self righteous superiority that you have bestowed upon yourself.
Perhaps you are insecure, and feel safety hidden behind the blue light of your computer screen. BUT....
If you spoke to people like that, out in the real world, especially where I'm from, you'd be drug out the holler, then git your ass whooped. After that I can't say what they'd do, the thought scares me. All I can say is, have you ever seen Deliverance?

P.S.
You can "assume/hope" that I am not really a Witch all you want, it won't change the fact that it is true..
Also, you were off by a LOOOOONG way on a few other things.
So let me enlighten you some more... "Mr. Grown-up" is my ol man, I am MRS. Grown-up.

Also, how exactly are you guaging maturity and intelligence?
By trying to find holes in something that was way above your intelligence level and I specifically mentioned so. It was way too complex to explain in a post. Did you miss the part where I told him to email me if he had any questions?
AND....
You must have just scrolled over the part where he said that it helped him too, so where exactly was the harm done? By thinking differently than you, Oh Great One ??
You are not even CLOSE to my level of intelligence boy genius.
STOP BEING SUCH A DICK!! Maybe you NEED to smoke a joint or two, you are way too uptight and pissed off for a child....
Now BEHAVE
#15
Quote by Raven Wilde

*...*

Please enlighten this "Space Witch" if you don't mind.


*...*


P.S.
You can "assume/hope" that I am not really a Witch all you want, it won't change the fact that it is true..




Today I feel electric grey
I hope tomorrow, neon black
#16
I have to agree with Raven Wilde. Technical skill is obviously required and will help your musical ideas but just because you are incredible at an instrument or know theory back and forth it wont necessarily make you write good music. To be the most creative you can be you have to let the music come naturally, not forced like it is some kind of work. Even though meditation wont guarantee you help with writing it is better than just mastering theory and your instrument. Remember, its best when it come naturally and not forced so meditation really just clears your mind of everything to let your ideas flow easier.
#17
THANK YOU METALMARATHON!!
I was starting to thing that I really was a Space Witch. So much for my plans on buying a flying saucer, looks like I won't be trading in my broom after all, oh well..Just gonna have to be a plain ol Bitchy Witch .

There are some REALLY talented musicians out there who can not even read a single note of standard notation or Tab. They have a gift and can just play. My son is one of them, he's 12 and he just picked up one of the guitars laying around the house and played a perfect scale. I was pretty impressed by that.
When I went to put up the guitar, I gave it a strum, (I cant resist, I just love the vibration ) That thing was so far out of tune it hurt my ears to hear it. I then thought, how the Hell did he do that?? He wasn't messing around with it for that long to find the correct notes, not to mention, he didnt know the notes. I never taught him a scale, or anything for that matter. He didn't learn it in school, because sadly, they do not teach music.
That had me truley awestruck, I hope he sticks with it. Music is so theraputic. When you have so much bottled up inside you and cannot express what you feel in words, you can do it with music. Gotta love it!
#18
Wow, now I'm really confused haha!

...I think I'm just gonna try out both Raven and Ganoosh's ideas, and some stuff in the middle and see what works best for now. I do think Ravens idea does help with things like stress and getting more focused, but i also do see how theory could help a lot.

I'll let you guys know what I think after I try some of these out

Quote by ApexMACHINE
Hey Nick,

Dude, nothing wrong with simple at all. In fact, my ability to produce and compose far outweighs my ability to actually play the guitar. Which as you might guess, is a bit of a problem sometimes. So for the most part, I tend to stick to what I know. I then write myself some really simple riffs, try to play them in different ways and with tiny variations and then see what they sound like in context.

BASIC RIFFS
The simple riffs are often the most effective, and if you can write good drum beats, can often change the whole feel of the riff you are playing. So try to vary the tempo of the drums, fast-into-slow on the same riff, and vary the pace of the track. Once you have your basic riff and a few variations with your drums, try some overlays.

BASIC OVERLAYS
With your basic riff, try some high-scale melodies. Keep them simple, and in the same key. So if you are playing a riff in G, go up a few octaves and pluck a little solo riff while the main rhythm is playing.

PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER
Keep it basic. Structure your songs into a formula that will help you see how to compose a full, complete song. It's only temporary, after all, and you can vary it after you get a little more confident. Try it like this;

Intro >> Chorus (Intro) >> Verse >> Bridge >> Chorus >> Verse >> Bridge >> Chorus (END)

This a very basic structure, in which you only really need to write 3 riffs for (The Chorus, the Bridge and the Verse.) Practice, keep it basic, and then you can move onto more interesting composition and writing after you get more confident.

The best thing to do when trying to expand your playing ability, to reflect your composition ability, is to compose riffs that are just slightly out of your reach. (For example, a riff you need to concentrate while playing, or that you can only play for a few bars before going out of time.)

Keep pushing the envelope, and keep pushing just that little bit -more- than what you know. Keep it simple... but always try to get the best out of yourself.

Hope I helped. I know it's a long message. Let me know how you get on, and link me to any new tracks you make.

Laters!
~KB



This sounds like some really good advise too by the way, I'm gonna have to try this out also. I'm not sure I'll be making any tracks for a while, because I still need to find out how to record better after the songs are written, but I'll find that out when I get there, and let u know when I do.
Quote by leg end

"Roses are red,
Violets are bitchin'
Goddammit woman,
get back in the kitchen"
Last edited by sites.nick at May 28, 2010,
#19
Try everything. Try stuff we haven't told you. Make shit up, create your own methods. Try stuff that doesn't exist, and learn what works. When you find what works, do it.
Today I feel electric grey
I hope tomorrow, neon black
#20
Nick,
Sorry for all the confusion, but you have to admit that this thread was hysterical, and a whole lot of fun.

Apex's outline is a really great reference, I'm stil lovin it. wonderful wonderful wonderful...

There was a whole lot of hell raising goin on but there were lessons for eveyone in all of it.

Keep us updated on your progress.
Good luck!
"Space Witch" over and out
I'm off to stir up some shit somewhere else HA HAAAA!
#21
Ahh a thread with a happy ending...now go write some death metal shit for teh bro0tuhlz!