#1
Hey, Ive been playing guitar for just over a year, and ive been wanting to improve my soloing and licks, i play blues mostly and i only use the Major and Minor Pentatonics to solo with, i was wondering what scale i should learn to give me more possibilities.

Thanks in advance.
Gear:
Epiphone SG g400 Custom
Fender SuperChamp XD
Pod xt
Danelectro EQ
Boss BD-2

Wishlist
Epiphone Les Paul standard Translucent Blue
#2
how bout the blues scale
your a wreck, an accident, forget the freak your just nature, keep the gun oiled and the temple clean, shit snort and blaspheme, let the heads cool and the engine run, because in the end everything we do is just everything we've done.
-corey taylor
#3
------------------------------------------------------12-15-
---------------------------------------------12-15--------
--------------------------------12-14-15---------------------
-----------------------12-14------------------------------
----------12-13-14-------------------------------------------
-12-15-----------------------------------------------------
Eminor blues
your a wreck, an accident, forget the freak your just nature, keep the gun oiled and the temple clean, shit snort and blaspheme, let the heads cool and the engine run, because in the end everything we do is just everything we've done.
-corey taylor
#4
Ah Sorry i forgot to mention i use the blues notes in the pentatonics as well, Thanks for the quick replies though.
Gear:
Epiphone SG g400 Custom
Fender SuperChamp XD
Pod xt
Danelectro EQ
Boss BD-2

Wishlist
Epiphone Les Paul standard Translucent Blue
#5
learn normal major and natural minor scales
your a wreck, an accident, forget the freak your just nature, keep the gun oiled and the temple clean, shit snort and blaspheme, let the heads cool and the engine run, because in the end everything we do is just everything we've done.
-corey taylor
#6
modes can be pretty useful too. you can get some really nice blues licks off of the dorian and phrygian modes. check those out
#7
Quote by LesPaulHer0
modes can be pretty useful too. you can get some really nice blues licks off of the dorian and phrygian modes. check those out


You're about to get shot down in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.....

Not because it's wrong, people are just afraid of them. Mixolydian has a nice bluesy tone as well.
#8
Quote by Pillo114
Not because it's wrong, people are just afraid of them.
Actually quite the contrary. I'm going to shoot it down not because I'm afraid of them (I understand them), just that they're misunderstood.

Saying things like "modes are a good way to spice up your playing" is a sign that you misunderstand them. If you think that way, you really just mean altered scales.

1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 in a mixolydian context is the mixolydian mode. In a major key, it's just an altered major scale. People far too often think that if you flat the 7 in a major key, it's the mixolydian mode. This is not true.

Don't try to argue that it's just semantics, because it's not. Modes are not just fun little things to mix up your music. Modal music is an entity completely unique from tonal music.

One last thing: This is not to say "don't learn modes, they're too complex." Learn modes. They're great. Just be sure to learn them right.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at May 31, 2010,
#9
Quote by LesPaulHer0
modes can be pretty useful too. you can get some really nice blues licks off of the dorian and phrygian modes. check those out


i'm just going to laugh. so....
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#10
Quote by food1010


Saying things like "modes are a good way to spice up your playing" is a sign that you misunderstand them. If you think that way, you really just mean altered scales.

1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 in a mixolydian context is the mixolydian mode. In a major key, it's just an altered major scale. People far too often think that if you flat the 7 in a major key, it's the mixolydian mode. This is not true.

Don't try to argue that it's just semantics, because it's not. Modes are not just fun little things to mix up your music. Modal music is an entity completely unique from tonal music.

One last thing: This is not to say "don't learn modes, they're too complex." Learn modes. They're great. Just be sure to learn them right.


You can play modally over a tonal piece, there's just not enough space. But it's not an "entity completely unique from tonal music." You're not remodeling your kitchen into a new one just because you threw the trash out.

Modes are just names of pitch sets.

EDIT:

i'm just going to laugh. so...


He's making licks with them, whether he's right or wrong, what have you got to show?
Last edited by Pillo114 at May 31, 2010,
#11
Calling a b7 in Blues "Mixolydian" is a little misguided. More often than not it's the simple result of mixing Major and Minor together. Throw the bVII from the Minor scale into a Major song (common in blues) and what you get could easily be mistaken as a mode. But instead it's just the same mix of Major and Minor. What's the difference? Well it's just a name really, but it hides you from the simple truth: if you use a bVII chord in your song, don't use a natural 7 over it because it will conflict with the b7. Just looking at the notes of the chord should tell you what you need to do. No need to over complicate things by calling a "Mixolydian Chord" or insisting that the "Mixolydian scale" is the appropriate choice for "soloing." Geez.

And if you use a IV in a Minor song, treating as some sort of Dorian situation is ridiculous. If you're in A minor and you play a D major chord, it's not a work of modal masterpiece -- it's a borrowed chord. You don't need to "play A Dorian over it", you just need to recognize that you need to play an F# instead of an F.

As for the TS...

You need to learn where those scales come in. You have to understand what's going on behind you before you can really decide what notes to play. The melody must fit the chords. This will of course require you to learn a bit/lot of theory.
i don't know why i feel so dry
Last edited by Eastwinn at May 31, 2010,
#12
Quote by Pillo114
He's making licks with them, whether he's right or wrong, what have you got to show?


i'm sorry, i forgot that i had to impress you in order to have an opinion.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#13
Reading I've done suggests that most of the posts about modes here in MT are really nonsense.

Given any scale, we are automatically given its set of modes, simply being the scale beginning from the different degrees of the original scale. Their is no intrinsic idea of modality or of modal music. Those are distinct but related concepts.

Over a C-Am-D-G chord progression, if I were to play D E F G A B C D over the D chord (or any chord in the progression) I would be playing the D Dorian mode. That is not the same as saying that what I'm playing is Dorian, as I'm playing I'm clearly playing a tonal piece, in C major.
My name is Tom, feel free to use it.
#14
And I thought I made it too easy hehehe:

For the Mixolydian blues haters, search for the sheet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_1Pa6vE14c

It's a pitch set used for each chord, I call it mixolydian. You could use a bunch more pitch sets if you wanted. There's no minor 3rd anywhere in the sheet though, nor a bunch of other notes that would prove otherwise. If you really wanted to stick to the melody you'd play mixolydian over the dominant chords.

Just looking at the notes of the chord should tell you what you need to do. No need to over complicate things by calling a "Mixolydian Chord" or insisting that the "Mixolydian scale" is the appropriate choice for "soloing." Geez.


Of course if a chord is Dmin, D, F, A is all you need. Who would want to stick to three notes when you could have dozens of pitch sets with those 3 notes included?

And if you use a IV in a Minor song, treating as some sort of Dorian situation is ridiculous. If you're in A minor and you play a D major chord, it's not a work of modal masterpiece -- it's a borrowed chord. You don't need to "play A Dorian over it", you just need to recognize that you need to play an F# instead of an F.



The melody must fit the chords


In composition it's the other way around, because the melody comes before the chords. Chords accompany the melody not the other way around. Read the intro to any book including Messiaen's or Schoenberg's and even them put harmony in the back seat.

But in a certain sense you're right. Although in a solo, especially improvised there is no melody; your improvisation is going to be the melody. The chords lay bare, there is no melody to imply tonality, so while it's a strong choice to go tonal you don't have to. As long as the melody fits the chords so you're set, right? If you had a seemingly tonal progression:

Over a C-Am-D-G chord progression, if I were to play D E F G A B C D over the D chord (or any chord in the progression) I would be playing the D Dorian mode. That is not the same as saying that what I'm playing is Dorian, as I'm playing I'm clearly playing a tonal piece, in C major.


It's just chords, there is no melody. What if the melody was built modally, or off of four different pitch sets, or both things combined? What if each chord was taken for and accounted separately?

Playing C ionian, A Aeolian, D Dorian, G Mixolydian is pointless, that's child's play and what all of you think you know.

What if you played a pitch set built off maybe C, C#, E, F#, G, A# just for Cmaj? It would work the same way C lydian would or even C mixolydian or C aeolian nat 3rd would if you dont imply the 7th. You're going to tell me you're borrowing? Like I've said a thousand times, modal music is not about simplistic modes, but about pitch sets with distinct intervals that define the sound you want. You could play C ionian, could seem tonal at first but what if you play A phrygian or A Melodic Minor or A, C, Eb, E, G? What happens then? Are you going to set up a Wall Street to exchange and borrow notes now? Borrow all you want but there's a BIG difference. Pitches are only relative to their intervallic value.

How is that limiting? Of course, you'd have to be Coltrane fast to pull it off.


i'm sorry, i forgot that i had to impress you in order to have an opinion.


I have nothing against you, hell you probably help the most in this forum. But this is a never ending cycle of commenting about modes and having someone like 20 tigers just wipe you out with essays, you cutting your losses admitting you dont know much about modes and doing the same thing the next day saying you're trying to invent modal keys.

The concept of modal keys tells me you still have a TON to learn.


Melody implies tonality chords don't. Chords are only the servants of melody. That's the mistake of current music education.

Petty arguments about modal music from a tonal point of view is like a classical physicist using classical physics to try and prove Special Relativity wrong.
Last edited by Pillo114 at Jun 1, 2010,
#15
I notice people here like to talk about modes like they are some super advanced concept and then pat themselves on the back every time they get to tell someone "sure u can do that but it wont be modal"
Last edited by Coagulation at Jun 1, 2010,
#16
Quote by Pillo114
cutting your losses admitting you dont know much about modes


i'd hardly consider admitting my lack of knowledge of modern modality as "admitting that i don't know much about modes". but i'm not going to deny that i still have a ton to learn.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#17
In regards to "melody must fit the chords" -- I didn't mean to imply any direction there, I could have easily said "chords must fit the melody". Better yet, they need to fit each other.

Anyway, when I said looking at the chord should tell you what to do, I didn't imply just to use chord tones. You're right, that would be really limiting. The idea would be to include those notes in the original major scale, replacing those that conflict.

When I get back on here I'll continue this post. I do agree with you in many senses, Pillo, but I just think that sometimes the blues/jazz approach to modes brings them in where they aren't needed. However, at the same time I think that the MT regular view is a bit impractical.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#18
Quote by Prophet of Page
Reading I've done suggests that most of the posts about modes here in MT are really nonsense.

Given any scale, we are automatically given its set of modes, simply being the scale beginning from the different degrees of the original scale. Their is no intrinsic idea of modality or of modal music. Those are distinct but related concepts.

Over a C-Am-D-G chord progression, if I were to play D E F G A B C D over the D chord (or any chord in the progression) I would be playing the D Dorian mode. That is not the same as saying that what I'm playing is Dorian, as I'm playing I'm clearly playing a tonal piece, in C major.
Well, if you were to play D dorian over the D (minor) chord, that would imply a modulation to D dorian. As long as the tonal center remains as C, then it's the C major scale. Then you get into jazz changes, and other such complex modulations and all of this gets muddied up, but that's not the topic at hand. The topic is simple diatonic chord changes, and when playing over these, if you don't use accidentals, then you don't change scales. Simple as that. You could look at it as if you were playing D dorian over the D minor chord so you can see how the individual intervals relate to the D, but you aren't actually playing D dorian. This is the point I'm making.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#19
PS... change the word "Mode" to "Flavour" instead. That way you won't be hassled by people pretending to be clever.