#1
I've been writing a piece that switches between B Major and E Major between the verses and choruses. The way the verse in E Major modulates into the chorus in B Major is pretty genius (I'm not gloating because it was accidental >_> and the way it modulates back into the verse works well. My problem is with modulating between the 2nd chorus in B Major to the bridge in E Major. The catch is that the tempo changes significantly also. I'm thinking if I use stronger method of modulation I'll have the desired smoother transition. If all else fails I'll try doing it with a melody like the first modulation, but I'd like more options. Ideas?

tl;dr: Techniques for modulating up a fourth?
i don't know why i feel so dry
Last edited by Eastwinn at Jun 2, 2010,
#2
I - I7 (V7/IV) - IV

Simple modulation to the IV of any key.

EDIT: And don't you mean up a fourth? (we are talking about going from B to E right?)
Last edited by DiminishedFifth at Jun 2, 2010,
#3
sorry mate, i don't know enough to suggest anything but i am interested in what you said, tell us more about this genius modulation; i've always been quite perplexed as to what is good and what is bad modulation.
#4
Use a pivot chord that's common to both keys. B and E are really easy since they share many common chords. I suggest using extensions to emphasize the modulation. Example, in the key of B major there is no B7 chord, only Bmaj7 ... but B7 exists in E major so maybe have your chord progression go something like ... ... ... Bmaj7 B B7 ... ... ... or the other way around.

EDIT: The nice thing about what I suggested is that the B7 chord at the end can resolve straight to an E chord.
Last edited by pwrmax at Jun 2, 2010,
#5
Quote by Markus85
sorry mate, i don't know enough to suggest anything but i am interested in what you said, tell us more about this genius modulation; i've always been quite perplexed as to what is good and what is bad modulation.


it's not hard at all to tell what's good and what's bad in terms of modulation. basically, if you do not detect it at all or you do detect it but it was very smooth, it was a good modulation. if you immediately detect a pivot point that does not work or the modulation is very forced and jarred, then the modulation is bad.

generally, it's just smooth = good and jarred = bad.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Last edited by AeolianWolf at Jun 2, 2010,
#6
Quote by AeolianWolf
basically, it's just smooth = good and jarred = bad.


I suppose that's a good general guideline, but you might want the modulation to be jarring.
My name is Tom, feel free to use it.
#7
Quote by AeolianWolf
it's not hard at all to tell what's good and what's bad in terms of modulation. basically, if you do not detect it at all or you do detect it but it was very smooth, it was a good modulation. if you immediately detect a pivot point that does not work or the modulation is very forced and jarred, then the modulation is bad.

basically, it's just smooth = good and jarred = bad.



hmm, put like that it seems quite simple, any song examples?
#8
I went with the I7 and it didn't feel quite right, so I dropped the dominant and inverted it and ended up with a D#mb6, which moved perfectly to the E. Thanks for the ideas, they definitely helped. (I have little or no practice with modulation.)

Markus85: Would? by Alice in Chains is in three different keys and has quite a few modulations between them. You wouldn't know it unless you were listening for them.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#9
Quote by Prophet of Page
I suppose that's a good general guideline, but you might want the modulation to be jarring.


yeah, i meant to put generally. i don't know why i put basically. but that's a good point - you might want a jarred modulation to achieve a particular effect. good catch.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#12
he used a IV as his pivot chord...

uhm theres enharmonic modulations, relative mods and closely related key mods
.. you used closely related which changes one accidental...
My Gear:
JacksonStars KE TN-02
Jackson DK2M
Jackson WRXT
Jackson KSXT
Jackson DXMG
Jackson 7 String soloist

Ovation Celeberity
#13
At the end of each phrase in the verse in E Major there's a little melody that goes D# - B - D# - E. When the phrase repeats it lands on another E, which completes the melody somewhat however the ear always seems to pull towards B. When the last repetition of the phrase comes around, the melody is followed by the chorus in B Major where it's completed with a B immediately. The other guitar on the last melody before the chorus plays B - G# - B - C# (it's harmonized in sixths) which is also followed by a B in the chorus.

I suppose it's not really genius if it was all done by accident :P
i don't know why i feel so dry
#14
Quote by Eastwinn
When the phrase repeats it lands on another E, which completes the melody somewhat however the ear always seems to pull towards B.


A D# needing to resolve a minor 6th up/ major 3rd down to a B?!

D# to E sounds.. err much more probable.


Quote by Eastwinn
the melody is followed by the chorus in B Major where it's completed with a B immediately. The other guitar on the last melody before the chorus plays B - G# - B - C# (it's harmonized in sixths) which is also followed by a B in the chorus.


this made no sense. i tryed playing it out but still couldnt figure it out.. Its only a modulation if you have a authentic cadence in new key.. and you keep referencing melodies to establish a modulation..

you need chords
My Gear:
JacksonStars KE TN-02
Jackson DK2M
Jackson WRXT
Jackson KSXT
Jackson DXMG
Jackson 7 String soloist

Ovation Celeberity
#15
^ you don't need chords to establish a key. Chords can be implied by melody as can modulations.
#16
if your implying chords through the melody.. change in tonal center almost impossible to tell.

theres no tonicization (secondary or leading dominants) because we havent established chords.. IMO this isnt a modulation.. your just using mode stuff
My Gear:
JacksonStars KE TN-02
Jackson DK2M
Jackson WRXT
Jackson KSXT
Jackson DXMG
Jackson 7 String soloist

Ovation Celeberity
#17
Quote by seymour_jackson
if your implying chords through the melody.. change in tonal center almost impossible to tell.

theres no tonicization (secondary or leading dominants) because we havent established chords.. IMO this isnt a modulation.. your just using mode stuff


That has nothing to do with modes. This was done all the time in baroque music.
#20
baroque/ classical/ romantic music had clear chords that fit the harmonic progression and used tonicization combined with a variety of modultaions, such as common tone, pivot chord, and direct (you just jump right into a new key)
implying chords through a melody to establish a modulation or tonal change is something that ive never heard of.. in my studies.

theres no clear accidental to state that youve moved tonally.. i might be nitpicking here but it doesnt seem to fit any of the forms of modulations
My Gear:
JacksonStars KE TN-02
Jackson DK2M
Jackson WRXT
Jackson KSXT
Jackson DXMG
Jackson 7 String soloist

Ovation Celeberity
#21
This is post-rock; the chords don't have to be clear for me to modulate. The tonality definitely changes, it's just not obvious because the song is void of explicit harmony until the Chorus area in B Major. Even then it's pretty muddled.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#22
Quote by seymour_jackson
baroque/ classical/ romantic music had clear chords that fit the harmonic progression and used tonicization combined with a variety of modultaions, such as common tone, pivot chord, and direct (you just jump right into a new key)
implying chords through a melody to establish a modulation or tonal change is something that ive never heard of.. in my studies.

theres no clear accidental to state that youve moved tonally.. i might be nitpicking here but it doesnt seem to fit any of the forms of modulations



The notes of a chord do not need to be sounded at the same time, a single line will imply harmony.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwHpDOWhkGk

With your logic that stays in one key.

(it doesn't)
#23
Quote by griffRG7321
The notes of a chord do not need to be sounded at the same time


yes i understand the concept of an arpeggio ..

ur taking a Bach Prelude to prove your point... and im using his example of a melody line..
Bachs Cello Suite's carries more then ONE line.. tenor alto bass.. just cause its one instrument doesnt make it one voice, or line as you said..

A KEY change is differnt than a modulation... and Bach has accidentals along with properly used 64 chords (or second inversion) using static bass to move the inner parts evenly

Every Bach or Beet modulation ive seen always have a V-I in the modulated key.. and ive analyzed quite a few movements and symphonies

it looks like you just wanted to post something.. but didnt know what you were posting
My Gear:
JacksonStars KE TN-02
Jackson DK2M
Jackson WRXT
Jackson KSXT
Jackson DXMG
Jackson 7 String soloist

Ovation Celeberity
#24
Quote by seymour_jackson
yes i understand the concept of an arpeggio ..

ur taking a Bach Prelude to prove your point... and im using his example of a melody line..
Bachs Cello Suite's carries more then ONE line.. tenor alto bass.. just cause its one instrument doesnt make it one voice, or line as you said..

A KEY change is differnt than a modulation... and Bach has accidentals along with properly used 64 chords (or second inversion) using static bass to move the inner parts evenly

Every Bach or Beet modulation ive seen always have a V-I in the modulated key.. and ive analyzed quite a few movements and symphonies

it looks like you just wanted to post something.. but didnt know what you were posting


I don't think you understand what you're argueing here.

You're saying a monophonic piece can't modulate.

What your saying is unorganised and unclear. Basically it seems like you learnt a bunch of stuff in a theory lesson, thought you understood it and blurted it all out in a post.

Quote by seymour_jackson
Every Bach or Beet modulation ive seen always have a V-I in the modulated key.. and ive analyzed quite a few movements and symphonies


Evidently not enough. V-I isn't the only way to modulate, and both Bach and Beethoven use other methods.
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Jun 3, 2010,
#25
Quote by griffRG7321
You're saying a monophonic piece can't modulate.


didnt a just say thiers more than one line?


Quote by griffRG7321
Evidently not enough. V-I isn't the only way to modulate, and both Bach and Beethoven use other methods


you tell me whats enough... ive already described other ways to modulate using 4 part chorale but give me more information

V-I tells the listener ,in the modulated key , that the composer, piece, symphony, sonata allegro, chorale w/e you wanna call it has moved succesfully to the modulated key..
My Gear:
JacksonStars KE TN-02
Jackson DK2M
Jackson WRXT
Jackson KSXT
Jackson DXMG
Jackson 7 String soloist

Ovation Celeberity
Last edited by seymour_jackson at Jun 3, 2010,
#26
Quote by seymour_jackson
didnt a just say thiers more than one line?


you tell me whats enough... ive already described other ways to modulate using 4 part chorale but give me more information

V-I tells the listener ,in the modulated key , that the composer, piece, symphony, sonata allegro, chorale w/e you wanna call it has moved succesfully to the modulated key..


Firstly, modulation is modulation, one sort of modulation isn't restricted to one form.

A few ways to modulate:
Pivot chords
Secondary dominants
Diminished 7ths
abrupt modulation
Neapolitan 6ths
Augmented 6ths

pretty much anything can be used in the modulation process if used right.

ALL of which can be achieved by a single monophonic line.
#27
Hi There, When modulating from one key to another always go to the 7th of the new key, you can also change tempo at this point no problem. So say you are in "G" and you want to change to "A" you would go to the E7 This rule (7th of the new key) will always give you a smooth transition.
Hope this is useful.?

Fenderflyer (New to forum)
#28
Quote by fenderflyer
Hi There, When modulating from one key to another always go to the 7th of the new key, you can also change tempo at this point no problem. So say you are in "G" and you want to change to "A" you would go to the E7 This rule (7th of the new key) will always give you a smooth transition.
Hope this is useful.?

Fenderflyer (New to forum)

You mean... Secondary Dominants? Secondary Dominants are the easiest and, possibly, the smoothest way to modulate.
#29
If you want to call it a secondary dominant that's fine but in any case its "Still" the seventh of the next key. as its a 7th it is not technically a secondary dominant...I also think its good to keep things simple as it encourages more people to play rather than it sound complicated (Which it isn't) I have been playing for 50 years 45 as a pro and always try and make things as simple as possible, when teaching I found this method was the best to get results...itis so easy to give information overload unintentionally.

Fenderflyer.
#30
Quote by fenderflyer
If you want to call it a secondary dominant that's fine but in any case its "Still" the seventh of the next key. as its a 7th it is not technically a secondary dominant...I also think its good to keep things simple as it encourages more people to play rather than it sound complicated (Which it isn't) I have been playing for 50 years 45 as a pro and always try and make things as simple as possible, when teaching I found this method was the best to get results...itis so easy to give information overload unintentionally.

Fenderflyer.

Well... I don't know what you mean by "7th". Do you mean the 7th scale degree, or the "natural" dominant of the next key?
#31
Quote by fenderflyer
If you want to call it a secondary dominant that's fine but in any case its "Still" the seventh of the next key. as its a 7th it is not technically a secondary dominant...I also think its good to keep things simple as it encourages more people to play rather than it sound complicated (Which it isn't) I have been playing for 50 years 45 as a pro and always try and make things as simple as possible, when teaching I found this method was the best to get results...itis so easy to give information overload unintentionally.


are you telling me that in the key of C, G is a dominant chord but G7 is not? if you have a piece in G and you want to modulate to A, and you use E7 to move directly to A, that's a perfect example of a secondary dominant.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#32
a secondary dominant reads as V/X.. X being the tonicized chord

Key C major: chord progression vi IV V/ii ii V I
tonicized chord D minor: D F A << start a dominant 7th chord of A.. A C# E G

resolution: 7th of your dominant chord resolves down by step, the 7th being your G.. down to the F

youre essentially borrowing a chord

there are also leading tone dominants in which you go down a half step from the tonicized chord and build a diminshed chord off that note
A is the tonicized chord.. go down to G# .. build diminshed chord.. G# B D
My Gear:
JacksonStars KE TN-02
Jackson DK2M
Jackson WRXT
Jackson KSXT
Jackson DXMG
Jackson 7 String soloist

Ovation Celeberity
Last edited by seymour_jackson at Jun 3, 2010,