#1
One of my teachers mentioned this, so I looked it up and it's true: as critical of the AZ immigration law as CA claims to be, it already has had the same law on the books as CA Penal Code 834b:
834b. (a) Every law enforcement agency in California shall fully
cooperate with the United States Immigration and Naturalization
Service regarding any person who is arrested if he or she is
suspected of being present in the United States in violation of
federal immigration laws.
(b) With respect to any such person who is arrested, and suspected
of being present in the United States in violation of federal
immigration laws, every law enforcement agency shall do the
following:
(1) Attempt to verify the legal status of such person as a citizen
of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted as a permanent
resident, an alien lawfully admitted for a temporary period of time
or as an alien who is present in the United States in violation of
immigration laws. The verification process may include, but shall not
be limited to, questioning the person regarding his or her date and
place of birth, and entry into the United States, and demanding
documentation to indicate his or her legal status.
(2) Notify the person of his or her apparent status as an alien
who is present in the United States in violation of federal
immigration laws and inform him or her that, apart from any criminal
justice proceedings, he or she must either obtain legal status or
leave the United States.
(3) Notify the Attorney General of California and the United
States Immigration and Naturalization Service of the apparent illegal
status and provide any additional information that may be requested
by any other public entity.
(c) Any legislative, administrative, or other action by a city,
county, or other legally authorized local governmental entity with
jurisdictional boundaries, or by a law enforcement agency, to prevent
or limit the cooperation required by subdivision (a) is expressly
prohibited.
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#2
Wasn't California one of the first to boycot Arizona because their "racist" immigration laws?
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#3
the law will spread throughout the country. i say we riot in protest...who's with me?
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#4
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the law will spread throughout the country. i say we riot in protest...who's with me?


way ahead of you buddy.

*finishes up mess*
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#5
Everyone is pissed at Arizona when immigration is a FEDERAL responsibility.
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#6
wasn't Arizona's immigration laws targeted specifically toward Hispanics and forced them to carry their citizenship papers around?

the California laws don't seem anything like that.
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#7
The AZ law is just a mirror of a federal law. It just lets state and local police check immigration status. Usually a local law enforcement agency wouldn't check immigration status, but because it is a state law, it lets them do that. Immigration is a federal thing.

EDIT: The AZ doesn't let a police officer just stop someone on the street and ask for papers. Only after someone has been arrested can they check immigration status. Yes, it does encourage racial profiling, but not to the degree some people have been saying.

Personally, I think that the law is unconstitutional because it gives a state jurisdiction over something that it actually the jurisdiction of the federal government.
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Last edited by rockingamer2 at Jun 7, 2010,
#8
Quote by Zombee
Everyone is pissed at Arizona when immigration is a FEDERAL responsibility.

Yeah, seriously.

I don't fully agree with the law. But shit, it's not like it's anything new.
#9
Quote by Zombee
Everyone is pissed at Arizona when immigration is a FEDERAL responsibility.

Polls have shown that the majority of Americans support Arizona.
#10
Quote by Waterboy799
wasn't Arizona's immigration laws targeted specifically toward Hispanics and forced them to carry their citizenship papers around?

the California laws don't seem anything like that.

That's what the protest groups want you to think, all the AZ law does is allow the state and local police to enforce immigration law, rather than leaving it to the feds. It says nothing about any race.
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#11
Quote by SomebodySomeone
way ahead of you buddy.

*finishes up mess*

dam it. how about we riot again just to make sure they take out the law
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#12
Quote by stratman7
Polls have shown that the majority of Americans support Arizona.


It doesn't matter if a majority of Americans support the law. If it is unconstitutional (see my above post), then it's unconstitutional.
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#13
Quote by rockingamer2
It doesn't matter if a majority of Americans support the law. If it is unconstitutional (see my above post), then it's unconstitutional.

The idea behind the Arizona law, though, is that AZ wanted immigration enforced but were unhappy with the way the feds handled it, so they took the law into their own hands. I personally commend Arizona for taking the initiative.
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#15
Quote by rgrockr
The idea behind the Arizona law, though, is that AZ wanted immigration enforced but were unhappy with the way the feds handled it, so they took the law into their own hands. I personally commend Arizona for taking the initiative.


+1
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If only you could back that statement up.
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#16
Quote by rgrockr
The idea behind the Arizona law, though, is that AZ wanted immigration enforced but were unhappy with the way the feds handled it, so they took the law into their own hands. I personally commend Arizona for taking the initiative.


I have a hunch that the law is a giant middle finger to the federal government for not taking care of the immigration problem. You could commend them for really getting a point across.

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Everyone complains about illegal immigration, but once it gets taken care of, everybody has a pissy party. I love America


Sure, it can be taken care of. It just has to be taken care of in the right way. Ever hear of federalism?
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Last edited by rockingamer2 at Jun 7, 2010,
#17
wow California is retarded saying we made a stupid law
Lets jump in a pool


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#18
Quote by rockingamer2
It doesn't matter if a majority of Americans support the law. If it is unconstitutional (see my above post), then it's unconstitutional.

If the law is found to be unconstitutional, obviously it should be struck down. But if it forces the feds to take a more active role in the enforcing of immigration laws in border states, then it's done its job.

But my post was really directed at the comment that "everyone" is pissed at Arizona when, in actuality, a very vocal minority is pissed at Arizona.
Last edited by stratman7 at Jun 7, 2010,
#19
Quote by stratman7

But my post was really directed at the comment that "everyone" is pissed at Arizona when, in actuality, a very vocal minority is pissed at Arizona.


I understand. It's just that you stated it without context. My bad for jumping to conclusions.
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#20
Quote by stratman7
If the law is found to be unconstitutional, obviously it should be struck down. But if it forces the feds to take a more active role in the enforcing of immigration laws in border states, the it's done its job.

But my post was really directed at the comment that "everyone" is pissed at Arizona when, in actuality, a very vocal minority is pissed at Arizona.


Not necessarily directing this at you, but I don't find it unconstitutional. It's still maintaining the supremacy of the national government. It just enforces the federal laws.
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#21
Quote by rockingamer2
The AZ law is just a mirror of a federal law. It just lets state and local police check immigration status. Usually a local law enforcement agency wouldn't check immigration status, but because it is a state law, it lets them do that. Immigration is a federal thing.

EDIT: The AZ doesn't let a police officer just stop someone on the street and ask for papers. Only after someone has been arrested can they check immigration status. Yes, it does encourage racial profiling, but not to the degree some people have been saying.

Personally, I think that the law is unconstitutional because it gives a state jurisdiction over something that it actually the jurisdiction of the federal government.

Lot's of state and federal laws mirror each other. Good thing you're not a lawyer.
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#22
Quote by Rogue Hermit
Not necessarily directing this at you, but I don't find it unconstitutional. It's still maintaining the supremacy of the national government. It just enforces the federal laws.


A state passing a law that has to do with a field of law that is seemingly exclusive to the federal government. It's called "field preemption." In this case, it's highly likely that immigration and immigration enforcement is a federal responsibility.
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#23
Quote by rockingamer2
A state passing a law that has to do with a field of law that is seemingly exclusive to the federal government. It's called "field preemption." In this case, it's highly likely that immigration and immigration enforcement is a federal responsibility.

A responsibility that they are successfully shirking. Arizona didn't pass anything new. They merely empowered local law enforcement to enforce Federal law.
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#24
Quote by rgrockr
That's what the protest groups want you to think, all the AZ law does is allow the state and local police to enforce immigration law, rather than leaving it to the feds. It says nothing about any race.


if it's a Federal job, then the state has no right to take it into their own hands.

it sounds like it's all about race and politics to me. i'm not surprised a southern (Republican) state is trying to make it their own personal business to rid themselves of minorities because they think the big bad government isn't doing a good enough job.

it's been statistically proven that immigrants are a positive force in the economy, so why should their citizenship matter? if they're illegal then technically they aren't covered by the certain laws that pertain only to citizens and it should just be left at that.
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#25
Quote by Waterboy799
if it's a Federal job, then the state has no right to take it into their own hands.

it sounds like it's all about race and politics to me. i'm not surprised a southern (Republican) state is trying to make it their own personal business to rid themselves of minorities because they think the big bad government isn't doing a good enough job.

it's been statistically proven that immigrants are a positive force in the economy, so why should their citizenship matter? if they're illegal then technically they aren't covered by the certain laws that pertain only to citizens and it should just be left at that.

Kidnapping is a Federal crime. Yet every state in the nation has laws against it. Killing people is a Federal crime. Every state has laws against it. Counterfeiting is a Federal crime. Every state has laws against it. Law enforcement at the local level will arrest you for violating a Federal crime of any sort. It is the US prosecutors office that will bring charges in a Federal court. Who enforces it is of no consequence. It's a question of prosecutorial jurisdiction. Not enforcement.

Edit-It has been statistically proven by groups that are comprised of people that are here illegally. It's cost is way beyond cheap tomatoes.
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#26
Quote by Jackal58
A responsibility that they are successfully shirking. Arizona didn't pass anything new. They merely empowered local law enforcement to enforce Federal law.


Yeah, it does. But I think that immigration is a federal problem and should be enforced by federal agents. State and federal laws do mirror each other, but that is most likely because both the state and the federal government both have a compelling interest in the field that the law is concerned with.

That's the other side of the argument, and a very valid one. Because Arizona is on the border, it has a compelling interest in immigration and can be allowed to pass immigration laws, especially if it just mirrors federal law. I'm just saying that I am on the "federal government jurisdiction" side.

EDIT: Your recent post has brought up a good point. I didn't think of it that way.
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Last edited by rockingamer2 at Jun 7, 2010,
#27
Quote by Jackal58
Kidnapping is a Federal crime. Yet every state in the nation has laws against it. Killing people is a Federal crime. Every state has laws against it. Counterfeiting is a Federal crime. Every state has laws against it. Law enforcement at the local level will arrest you for violating a Federal crime of any sort. It is the US prosecutors office that will bring charges in a Federal court. Who enforces it is of no consequence. It's a question of prosecutorial jurisdiction. Not enforcement.

Edit-It has been statistically proven by groups that are comprised of people that are here illegally. It's cost is way beyond cheap tomatoes.

No. That's the Secret Service's job.
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#28
Quote by rockingamer2
Yeah, it does. But I think that immigration is a federal problem and should be enforced by federal agents. State and federal laws do mirror each other, but that is most likely because both the state and the federal government both have a compelling interest in the field that the law is concerned with.

That's the other side of the argument, and a very valid one. Because Arizona is on the border, it has a compelling interest in immigration and can be allowed to pass immigration laws, especially if it just mirrors federal law. I'm just saying that I am on the "federal government jurisdiction" side.

EDIT: Your recent post has brought up a good point. I didn't think of it that way.

Arizona did not create an INS service. Arizona did not enact legislation closing their borders. Arizona did not place their sovereignty above federal law. All they did was allow state and local law enforcement agencies to detain people that are not legal residents of the US for processing and disposition by the Feds. It is the Federal courts that have jurisprudence in these cases. Arizona did nothing to usurp federal powers.

Dammit just saw your edit.
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#29
Quote by rgrockr
No. That's the Secret Service's job.

You go show your local Barney Fife your printing press and see how long it takes before you're in handcuffs.
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#30
Quote by Jackal58
Kidnapping is a Federal crime. Yet every state in the nation has laws against it. Killing people is a Federal crime. Every state has laws against it. Counterfeiting is a Federal crime. Every state has laws against it. Law enforcement at the local level will arrest you for violating a Federal crime of any sort. It is the US prosecutors office that will bring charges in a Federal court. Who enforces it is of no consequence. It's a question of prosecutorial jurisdiction. Not enforcement.

Edit-It has been statistically proven by groups that are comprised of people that are here illegally. It's cost is way beyond cheap tomatoes.


the laws you listed are, which if violated, affect the people in which there done to very directly. illegal immigration is far from murdering or kidnapping someone and it does not have the same effect on people or on the state.

and no, it has been proven by certain organizations comprised of American citizens who make it their job to prove that immigration isn't as evil as people in this country make it out to be. one of these organizations came to my university and made an hour long speech about this type of thing. i don't believe immigration is evil, nor do i believe immigrants should be sent back to their countries because they came here in search of work and a better life.
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#31
Quote by rgrockr
No. That's the Secret Service's job.



Which is a branch of the federal government...

And this is fantastic. I am completely unsurprised. I can't believe how much shit AZ has taken for this whole thing. Yes, it does promote profiling, but is profiling wrong when, in AZ, an illegal immigrant is overwhelmingly statistically likely to be hispanic? Especially because its not like the police can just stop people on the street, only people who have already been arrested. Also, as far as I know, everyone is supposed to be able to prove his/her legality at all times. For most of us, thats just our drivers license or SSN.
#32
Quote by Waterboy799
the laws you listed are, which if violated, affect the people in which there done to very directly. illegal immigration is far from murdering or kidnapping someone and it does not have the same effect on people or on the state.

and no, it has been proven by certain organizations comprised of American citizens who make it their job to prove that immigration isn't as evil as people in this country make it out to be. one of these organizations came to my university and made an hour long speech about this type of thing. i don't believe immigration is evil, nor do i believe immigrants should be sent back to their countries because they came here in search of work and a better life.



care to give sources? or some of the reasons they gave so that we can have some friendly debate? No one (other than Glenn beck type asshats maybe) is saying that illegal immigrants are evil or the spawn of the devil or anything like that.

SAINTLYEDIT: sorry for the double post, i figured someone else would get a post in while i was typing...
#33
Quote by Waterboy799
the laws you listed are, which if violated, affect the people in which there done to very directly. illegal immigration is far from murdering or kidnapping someone and it does not have the same effect on people or on the state.

and no, it has been proven by certain organizations comprised of American citizens who make it their job to prove that immigration isn't as evil as people in this country make it out to be. one of these organizations came to my university and made an hour long speech about this type of thing. i don't believe immigration is evil, nor do i believe immigrants should be sent back to their countries because they came here in search of work and a better life.


We are talking about illegal immigrants here.
#34
Quote by Waterboy799
the laws you listed are, which if violated, affect the people in which there done to very directly. illegal immigration is far from murdering or kidnapping someone and it does not have the same effect on people or on the state.

and no, it has been proven by certain organizations comprised of American citizens who make it their job to prove that immigration isn't as evil as people in this country make it out to be. one of these organizations came to my university and made an hour long speech about this type of thing. i don't believe immigration is evil, nor do i believe immigrants should be sent back to their countries because they came here in search of work and a better life.

It does effect the state of Arizona. If it didn't they would not have passed the law.

I don't believe immigration is evil either. I just have no problems with AZ enforcing a law the feds refuse to.
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#35
Send the illegal immigrants home. I mean we've been bitching about it for years. Now somebody's doing something about it. If you've got a problem with it, figure out a better solution then we'll talk. Till then, don't ruin a good thing.
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#36
Quote by Doobergn
We are talking about illegal immigrants here.

And this is the main source of conflict on the issue. Most "protesters" talk about immigration and refuse to acknowledge the "illegal" part.
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#37
Quote by Jackal58
It does effect the state of Arizona. If it didn't they would not have passed the law.

I don't believe immigration is evil either. I just have no problems with AZ enforcing a law the feds refuse to.


my ideas as to why it effects the state of Arizona probably differ from yours.

that's why i said earlier i believed the laws to be more about race and bad politics than economics.

i really do not find it surprising that a southern Republican state controlled primarily by your typical Bible carrying middle class white guy is quick to enforce a law that would get rid of minorities in said state.
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#38
Quote by Waterboy799
my ideas as to why it effects the state of Arizona probably differ from yours.

that's why i said earlier i believed the laws to be more about race and bad politics than economics.

i really do not find it surprising that a southern Republican state controlled primarily by your typical Bible carrying middle class white guy is quick to enforce a law that would get rid of minorities in said state.


The law is not about getting rid of minorities. It's about illegal immigrants. They're not actually the same thing. And have you even read the law? It expressly forbids using race as the sole reason for checking ID.

Here's the text of the law: http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.htm
#39
Quote by rockingamer2
Yeah, it does. But I think that immigration is a federal problem and should be enforced by federal agents. State and federal laws do mirror each other, but that is most likely because both the state and the federal government both have a compelling interest in the field that the law is concerned with.

That's the other side of the argument, and a very valid one. Because Arizona is on the border, it has a compelling interest in immigration and can be allowed to pass immigration laws, especially if it just mirrors federal law. I'm just saying that I am on the "federal government jurisdiction" side.
EDIT: Your recent post has brought up a good point. I didn't think of it that way.



But what happens when the federal government doesn't give a s hit about the illegal immigration issue, and then the state is left holding the bag being over run with the illegal @ssholes?

Feds didn't give a s hit, and thats why Arizona had to crack down.

And then the president of cat piss for drinking water land critisizes and condems Arizona for "racist profiling", when Mexico themselves automaticaly throw their illegals in rat infested jails.

Aint irony grand?
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