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#1
I was watching a video called "common guitar problems" on facetube,posted by a somewhat popular youtube guitar tech,and he stated that if you rotate the studs of a FR system when Its under tension(or friction,according to him),to adjust action,the knife edges immediately wear out and it will never comes back to pitch again.so you have to take off the whole bridge and adjust the studs..I was like WTF?o_O

Is he right?

skip to 3:46,problem #8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCb_CuAOEGA&feature=related
#2
I call BS

never had trouble with my guitars and alot of those guys vids are pretty shit anyway.

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#3
Well when you adjust the studs yeah it is metal moving against metal so i'd imagine you're not doing them much good but i wouldn't say the knife edges 'immediately' wear out it...
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#4
He's exaggerating a bit, but the point is VERY valid. You should always remove tension before adjusting the studs on any knife edge based trem. It's not that big of a hassel seeing as you shouldn't have to mess with the posts more than a couple of times a year. Just pop off the springs, remove the trem, adjust the posts and then put the trem back in. Really doesn't take long at all.....
#5
Here's the deal. Doing that can wear down knife edges on a crappy bridge, but so can pretty much anything...

If it's a cheap Floyd, they're gonna wear out eventually, no matter what you do.
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#6
Quote by biga29
Here's the deal. Doing that can wear down knife edges on a crappy bridge, but so can pretty much anything...

If it's a cheap Floyd, they're gonna wear out eventually, no matter what you do.


I have one with an Edge trem and another with an Edge pro..so guess it doesnt apply to them..
#7
He's actually kind of right. Depending on the metal, turning the studs can dull or make threads in the studs, not neccessarily the knife edges. I have a 10 year old used LoTRS-II, a lower quality FR, and the studs on that had a bunch of threads on the pivots from being adjusted when under that pressure. So yes and no, it CAN hurt, but mostly if you have lower quality stuff.
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#8
Quote by archenemyfan
I have one with an Edge trem and another with an Edge pro..so guess it doesnt apply to them..
No, it does apply to them. It just takes a little longer.
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#9
It would take an awful lot of adjusting to wear out the knife edge, I would think. Over the course of years. Were talking about what, a quarter to half turn in adjustment? It would seem to me that with a cheap FR, just the useage and pivoting in general would be enough to wear them down long before making post adjustments would.
#10
The guy is right, you can preserve the knife edges and increase their life-span using this method.

Rotating the studs under tension wears out the knife edges (after a while).
#11
It's bullshit.

The tension of the strings and springs holds the bridge against the studs, whren you adjust the height of the studs the bridge moves with it. If that wasn't the case then your bridge height wouldn't change when you altered the studs.
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Last edited by steven seagull at Jun 9, 2010,
#12
Yes, it wears them out just like the road wears out tires. I'd imagine a quality case hardened steel of an expensive trem you would need need to crank those studs for days, but it will happen. Easy remedy is to loosen the strings until they're floppy, and then adjust the bridge.
#13
Quote by KingStill
Yes, it wears them out just like the road wears out tires. I'd imagine a quality case hardened steel of an expensive trem you would need need to crank those studs for days, but it will happen. Easy remedy is to loosen the strings until they're floppy, and then adjust the bridge.


well he also stated that he has seen brand new guitars with worn out knife edges..Is he saying that he knows better than the people setting up guitars in the actual factory?for example like Team J craft?

and in the official manual of my Rg1570,nothing like that has been mentioned..
Last edited by archenemyfan at Jun 9, 2010,
#14
hes got a good point, of course on an OFR the edges wont wear off that quickly but after time they will if you keep rotating the poles... which you usually dont, too often.

the springs pull the bridge the other way, with the strings evening it up. Together, the springs and strings ARE pulling the knife edges towards the poles (obviously) creating friction. If you then start rotating the poles, the knife edges will wear off (slowly...)
#16
Quote by steven seagull
It's bullshit.

The tension of the strings and springs holds the bridge against the studs, whren you adjust the height of the studs the bridge moves with it. If that wasn't the case then your bridge height wouldn't change when you altered the studs.


+1

dan erlewine's setup book says it doesn't matter.
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#17
It's moving metal on metal contact with LOTS of pressure(all your strings + springs)

They aren't made of unobtainium. It's going to wear.
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#18
actually i'm going to -1 mark's post. I just had a think and I don't think that makes sense.

regardless, dan erlewine's book says it doesn't matter.



EDIT: if you actually have a decent trem, the knife edges should be made of hardened steel. assuming the studs aren't made of as hard steel, the studs would wear, not the knife edges (presumably).
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

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Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

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Et tu, br00tz?
Last edited by Dave_Mc at Jun 9, 2010,
#19
Quote by steven seagull
It's bullshit.

The tension of the strings and springs holds the bridge against the studs, whren you adjust the height of the studs the bridge moves with it. If that wasn't the case then your bridge height wouldn't change when you altered the studs.


Think it over. Yes, the bridge will move up/down, but the stud screws must rotate against the knife edges and induce friction. There would be no friction if the bridge rotated around the axis of the screw, but that is absurd.
#20
yeah, see that's why i changed my mind. what mark said would be right if the trem just went up and down, but it's a screw which moves it up and down, and the trem doesn't rotate.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

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Et tu, br00tz?
#21
so does everyone of you take the trem off before you adjust the action?
Last edited by archenemyfan at Jun 9, 2010,
#22
It's a valid point, save for the "immediately". A bad knife edge will take a hit from this - small hit, but still. A good knife edge might chew into a stud over time.

To be safe, pull the trem off the studs just a millimeter and then adjust your stud height.
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#23
Quote by pifty
It's a valid point, save for the "immediately". A bad knife edge will take a hit from this - small hit, but still. A good knife edge might chew into a stud over time.

To be safe, pull the trem off the studs just a millimeter and then adjust your stud height.


ah,I was waiting for you to chime in,do you follow this procedure with your guitars?
#24
Quote by archenemyfan
so does everyone of you take the trem off before you adjust the action?


And turn a 30 second job into a half hour ordeal? Hell no. My time is worth more than my tremolo.
Last edited by RobinTH at Jun 9, 2010,
#25
In order to adjust the action, you must have the strings under tension - or else your just doing trial and error.

And taking off the trem each time to make the adjustment? Screw that! I just rescued a BC Rich Warlock with FR trem and I took it up and down many many times getting the action set right - it intonates fine and there is no visible damage to the edge of the trem or stud.

Maybe if you did it daily for a year you'd get some damage. But for a normal setup? Don't sweat it.
#26
The ordeal in steps.

1. Open the rear cover on the patient.

2. Apply additional leverage point to the trem, in simple terms - stick something between the trem and the body. This is how I does it:

(Ha! I used a metal feeler gauge set. If you try it with chopsticks, plastic pens, or a stack of rolled up benjamins, it won't work - all these things compress and/or break.)

3. Turn the guitar around and notice how the knife edges are not even touching the studs, since we just introduced another leverage point and shifted the balance from the strings and to the springs:


4. Adjust your action, reset system thereafter.

Time taken: about two minutes, including holding a flashlight in one hand and a camera phone in the other while performing the procedure.
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#27
Wow! thanks so much,you made my life easier(as always),so what you have to do is stick something that is thick enough to take the trem slightly away from the studs,and then adjust the action?

whats that guitar BTW?
#28
Quote by archenemyfan
whats that guitar BTW?


The bridge is a LoPro. The process is the same for any FR, though.


Aw, now she's angry that everyone saw what's under her cover.
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#29
that's a good idea. What do you do, just jam it between the sustain block and the body so it levers the trem slightly off the studs?
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#30
Quote by Dave_Mc
that's a good idea. What do you do, just jam it between the sustain block and the body so it levers the trem slightly off the studs?
Essentially. If your thing is big enough (that's what she said), you won't even need to pull on the arm to take the trem off the studs. Anything for which you'd need to dive the trem to insert it should do the job nicely.

I'm not paranoid about damaging old Ibanez trems like that, but then it doesn't take much time... and maybe I am paranoid.
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#31
ah, i got you now, i was wondering how to get the feeler gauges in, so you dive the trem, insert gauges, and then when the trem goes back it won't go back all the way and will be off the studs? right?

and yeah, i mean if there's as quick a fix as that it doesn't make much sense to risk it. different when i thought the alternative was removing all the strings.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#32
Quote by Dave_Mc
ah, i got you now, i was wondering how to get the feeler gauges in, so you dive the trem, insert gauges, and then when the trem goes back it won't go back all the way and will be off the studs? right?
Yep. To release it, you dive again until stud contact happens, the blocks fall out, and unless you have a LoTRS, you'll still be close enough to perfect tune when the trem returns.
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#33


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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#34
You could always add a drop or 2 of oil to the knife edge. As long as you don't spin the studs with enough speed and sustained frequency to generate heat, wear and damage should be zeroo0. That is how and why engines can run for hundreds of thousands of miles, metal to metal.
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#35
Isnt it better to include this new action adjustment procedure in the "New&Improved FR Setup Guide",so that everyone is aware of this problem?
#36
Quote by miketheslut
You could always add a drop or 2 of oil to the knife edge. As long as you don't spin the studs with enough speed and sustained frequency to generate heat, wear and damage should be zeroo0. That is how and why engines can run for hundreds of thousands of miles, metal to metal.


+1 the easy way

Plus, every time you move the trem up or down the edges are going to grind slightly. After a period of time they will dull anyway. So probably a good idea to put a tiny dot of oil on there.
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#37
The edge is hardened steel, it won't wear out immediately.

http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/Sekhmet/blog/16784/

Just oil, keep it clean and adjust it regularly, it's not hard.
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#38
Quote by archenemyfan
Isnt it better to include this new action adjustment procedure in the "New&Improved FR Setup Guide",so that everyone is aware of this problem?


ya prolly
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#39
I set up guitars all day long and never will I take the trem off to adjust the height of it. Nothing will happen to the trem when you make minor adjustments like that.
#40
Don't oil anything because these are designed for dry operation. Oil will work great at first, but then it will keep trapping dirt.
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