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#1
I think i know what it is but im not sure. if im in the scale of C does that mean it will go
C,D,E,F#,A,B,C#
And why is it considered a devil scale with the Tritone in it?
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#2
A tritone is an augmented 4th/diminished 5th. Meaning, if you go from a C to an F# or a B to an F (and vice-versa), that is a tritone.
#3
tri = 3
tone = tone

A tritone is an interval of three whole tones.

It has a very dissonant sound that people say sounds evil there are some stories about how playing the tritone would summon the devil or that it was banned by the church - I don't know the truth of these stories but the name "devil's" interval stuck.
Si
#4
it is the note exactly halfway between an octave. 6 frets along a guitar string, or diagonal between strings in standard tuning. It is one semitone bigger than a perfect fourth, or one semitone smaller than a perfect fifth, and is considered "evil" because it is an EXTREME dissonance and sounds "unpleasant" to untrained ears unless hidden under thick harmony

 E |-------------------------|
 B |-------------------------| 
 G |-------------------------|
 D |-------------------------|
 A |-----------7--------7----|
 E |------6--------6---------|
Play that. you just played a tritone, melodically. Twice!

 E |-------------------------|
 B |-------------------------| 
 G |-------------------------|
 D |-------------------------|
 A |------7----7---7----7----|
 E |------6----6---6----6----|
play THAT and you've played a tritone harmonically. Four times
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Last edited by jeowy at Jun 9, 2010,
#5
Beethoven rapes that interval, puts it in its place, check out his sonatas for piano.
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#7
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#8
Quote by Sean0913
and is the point of greatest dissonance.
well...that's debatable.
Si
#9
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#10
I've always thought the minor 2nd had greatest dissonance.
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#12
In addition to everything thats been said, tritones make chords extremely unstable, and are an excellent tool to move through key centers with
#13
Quote by ChrisN
I've always thought the minor 2nd had greatest dissonance.


Depends. Harmonically, yes. Melodically, not so much, would say a tritone interval played melodically is much more instable. (to my ears at least)

But it also kinda depends if you mean interval as in note-distance or interval as derived from a scale. Minor 2nd isnt quite as dissonant if you play it an octave higher (people sometimes call that a minor 9th )
#14
Quote by Myshadow46_2
I'm pretty sure that, although enharmonic, a tritone is an augmented fourth; not a diminished 5th.


Yes and no. Yes if only the major second counts as a tone. No if two semitones are a tone regardless of whether it's a major second, diminished third or what have you. The tempered semitone itself being ambiguous (it can be a diatonic semitone/minor second or chromatic semitone/augmented prime) gives weight to the "no" argument.
#15
Quote by Dodeka
Yes and no. Yes if only the major second counts as a tone. No if two semitones are a tone regardless of whether it's a major second, diminished third or what have you. The tempered semitone itself being ambiguous (it can be a diatonic semitone/minor second or chromatic semitone/augmented prime) gives weight to the "no" argument.


+1
#16
Quote by Derk'ed
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Turn around and start to run.


it's also referred to as Diablos in Musica (Slayer has an album by the same title and has more tritones in it than any other album I own. they raped it), or the devil in music.

the large amount of dissonance in this interval gives it many uses. the most obvious is in creepy or evil sounding music, but it can also be used in more clever ways that aren't. like in a dominant 7th chord there is a tritone between the 3rd and the 7th. it's very common to use a V7 - I resolution because the dissonance in the V7 makes it want to resolve a lot more than a regular V or Vmaj7.
#17
A minor second is the most dissonant. Tritone is 7:5 and minor second is 15:16.
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#18
Quote by Myshadow46_2
I'm pretty sure that, although enharmonic, a tritone is an augmented fourth; not a diminished 5th.


I would say it was the other way around.

Firstly, just because the tritone has a diminished sound, and also because a #4 or #11 in a scale is not usually treated as huge disonance (think lydian mode, or jazz chords)- but a b5 (as in the diminished scale, or diminished/dominant chords).

So I guess I'm kinda saying that a b5 is more dissonant than a #4

I don't know enough about tempering intervals to make that arguement though...

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Last edited by chainsawguitar at Jun 14, 2010,
#19
Quote by chainsawguitar

So I guess I'm kinda saying that a b5 is more dissonant than a #4



play them. Does one sound more dissonant than the other?
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#20
Quote by chainsawguitar
I would say it was the other way around.


The augmented fourth is in the "tritone club" without question, as it's clearly made up of three tones. Whether or not it's the sole member of that club depends on what we consider a tone to be.

Quote by chainsawguitar
Firstly, just because the tritone has a diminished sound, and also because a #4 or #11 in a scale is not usually treated as huge disonance (think lydian mode, or jazz chords)- but a b5 (as in the diminished scale, or diminished/dominant chords).

So I guess I'm kinda saying that a b5 is more dissonant than a #4


Even supposing a diminished fifth was more dissonant than an augmented fourth, where is it said the tritone has to be the more dissonant of the two? "Diminished" isn't so much a sound quality but an interval treatment. We don't name intervals according to their sound quality; we associate sound qualities with intervals.
#21
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#22
Basically, a tritone is any interval of 3 tones. A diminished 5th isn't any more or less of a tritone than an augmented 4th. It's a clear, measurable thing.
#24
It doesn't matter what tritone is "supposed" to mean because everyone uses it to mean a b5. That's how words work.
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#25
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Faggot.
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#26
Quote by Dodeka
The augmented fourth is in the "tritone club" without question, as it's clearly made up of three tones. Whether or not it's the sole member of that club depends on what we consider a tone to be.


I wasn't saying that the two were different in size. A tritone is three tones- I'm not arguing about that. I just mean that if you had to pick one, it would be the b5- not the #4.


Quote by Dodeka

Even supposing a diminished fifth was more dissonant than an augmented fourth, where is it said the tritone has to be the more dissonant of the two? "Diminished" isn't so much a sound quality but an interval treatment. We don't name intervals according to their sound quality; we associate sound qualities with intervals.


I would, however, argue that "diminished" is a sound quality- and yes we do name intervals based on their sound quality!

Would you agree that a major triad is made up of a root note, a major third and a fifth? It's not: root - diminished fourth - fifth, is it?

Why? It's because of the sound quality- it's not a diminished sound, it's a major sound.

What I'm saying is: a b5 has a diminished sound, and a #4 has an augmented sound.

Where is it said the tritone has to be the more dissonant of the two? Well nowhere, apart from the fact that the tritone is normally used in a dissonant context- just like the b5- whereas the #4 is used in that context less often.
#27
Quote by chainsawguitar

What I'm saying is: a b5 has a diminished sound, and a #4 has an augmented sound.



there is no difference in sound. It's real easy confirm this.

Just play A - D# on your guitar
now play A - Eb

does it sound any different?
(rhetorical question)

answer.... no, ofcourse not. it sounds about as different as open A on the 5th string VS open Bbb on the 5th string.
shred is gaudy music
#28
Quote by chainsawguitar
I would, however, argue that "diminished" is a sound quality- and yes we do name intervals based on their sound quality!

Would you agree that a major triad is made up of a root note, a major third and a fifth? It's not: root - diminished fourth - fifth, is it?

Why?


We don't do it because we make chords from the root - 3rd - 5th. NOT root - fourth - fifth.

What I'm saying is: a b5 has a diminished sound, and a #4 has an augmented sound.


Munky's got it covered. Honestly, I don't think you really know what you're arguing for at this point.

Where is it said the tritone has to be the more dissonant of the two? Well nowhere, apart from the fact that the tritone is normally used in a dissonant context- just like the b5- whereas the #4 is used in that context less often.

The only reason we see the b5 more often is because it's part of the diminished chord. It has NOTHING to do with the sound... at all. If you played me A - C- D# and then played A - C - Eb they would be, aurally, the same thing (though they would serve different functions).

But, need I reiterate? I need so. The #4 is used less because it's not part of a diminished chord. You'd be more hard-pressed to find it in Jazz (add#11 or sus#4, etc) than you would in a typical classical setting. Because, well, it's not part of a diminished chord.
#29
Quote by DiminishedFifth
We don't do it because we make chords from the root - 3rd - 5th. NOT root - fourth - fifth.


Exactly. I don't understand what you're not getting.



Munky's got it covered. Honestly, I don't think you really know what you're arguing for at this point.


The only reason we see the b5 more often is because it's part of the diminished chord. It has NOTHING to do with the sound... at all. If you played me A - C- D# and then played A - C - Eb they would be, aurally, the same thing (though they would serve different functions).


Bolded part explains EXACTLY what I'm saying. How can you say you don't know what I'm arguing for, and then almost use my exact arguement to back up your own point in an attempt to refute my arguement


But, need I reiterate? I need so. The #4 is used less because it's not part of a diminished chord. You'd be more hard-pressed to find it in Jazz (add#11 or sus#4, etc) than you would in a typical classical setting. Because, well, it's not part of a diminished chord.


I would be more hard-pressed to find it in Jazz? You're saying that its unusual to find, say, Am7#11 in a jazz tune?

I think maybe I'm the one that needs to reiterate: a b5 and #4 are enharmonically equivalent, but the b5 is diminished, and the #4 is augmented.

I honestly don't get what part of that is so hard to understand

Is everyone here just trying to pick an arguement when one doesn't exist?
#30
Quote by chainsawguitar
Exactly. I don't understand what you're not getting.
I'm not understanding how that means that the b5 is more dissonant than the #4.


Bolded part explains EXACTLY what I'm saying. How can you say you don't know what I'm arguing for, and then almost use my exact arguement to back up your own point in an attempt to refute my arguement


You never mentioned function once...

I would be more hard-pressed to find it in Jazz? You're saying that its unusual to find, say, Am7#11 in a jazz tune?


Haha that's my fault! I used the wrong word. But no... it would be harder to find an Am7#11 in a Classical piece.

I think maybe I'm the one that needs to reiterate: a b5 and #4 are enharmonically equivalent, but the b5 is diminished, and the #4 is augmented.

I honestly don't get what part of that is so hard to understand

Is everyone here just trying to pick an arguement when one doesn't exist?

Well... of course they are. Diminished fifth. Augmented fourth. That doesn't mean they have different sounds though (see Munky's post).
#31
Quote by chainsawguitar



I would be more hard-pressed to find it in Jazz? You're saying that its unusual to find, say, Am7#11 in a jazz tune?


actually it would be unusual. You're not very likley to find a #11 over a minor chord. an 11... for sure... but not #11.

You will find #11's/b5's over Major chords and Dominant chords.


regarding their function, why not try this aurally.

play:

Em7 A7b5 DMaj7

now play:

Em7 A7#11 DMaj7

What's the difference in sound/function between the alt dom in the 1st example VS the alt dominant in the 2nd example.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 15, 2010,
#33
Quote by DiminishedFifth

You never mentioned function once...


I sure did.

Quote by chainsawguitar
I would, however, argue that "diminished" is a sound quality- and yes we do name intervals based on their sound quality!

Would you agree that a major triad is made up of a root note, a major third and a fifth? It's not: root - diminished fourth - fifth, is it?

Why? It's because of the sound quality- it's not a diminished sound, it's a major sound.

What I'm saying is: a b5 has a diminished sound, and a #4 has an augmented sound.




Well... of course they are. Diminished fifth. Augmented fourth. That doesn't mean they have different sounds though (see Munky's post).


I don't dissagree with Munky's post...that's not the issue here at all! I'm not saying the interval is different (it's always 3 tones, hence "tritone").

Lets try another example: ascend from the root to the 4th note of the whole tone scale- technically a tritone above the root- this is an augmented sound (a #4). Whereas if you ascend up the diminished scale to the 5th degree (again, a tritone above the root) you get a diminished sound.

Of course, if you play them entirely out of context they are exactly the same, but IN CONTEXT you have to explain why you're calling them a b5 or a #4...
#34
Quote by chainsawguitar
I sure did.
Where? Function wasn't mentioned in there.

I don't dissagree with Munky's post...that's not the issue here at all! I'm not saying the interval is different (it's always 3 tones, hence "tritone").

Lets try another example: ascend from the root to the 4th note of the whole tone scale- technically a tritone above the root- this is an augmented sound (a #4). Whereas if you ascend up the diminished scale to the 5th degree (again, a tritone above the root) you get a diminished sound.

Of course, if you play them entirely out of context they are exactly the same, but IN CONTEXT you have to explain why you're calling them a b5 or a #4...

Of course IN CONTEXT you have a reason to do it... but, either way, that's a flawed argument. You have no control. You have a whole-tone scale (which, inherently, has that augmented sound) and the diminished (which, inherently, has the diminished sound). When you play the diminished scale you WILL get the diminished sound... and when you play the whole-tone scale you'll get the augmented sound. That's just how it works because of the way we're conditioned.

That DOES NOT mean that a #4 has an augmented sound and a b5 has a diminished sound. They sound the same. The only difference is the function of each interval.
#35
Quote by DiminishedFifth

Of course IN CONTEXT you have a reason to do it... but, either way, that's a flawed argument. You have no control. You have a whole-tone scale (which, inherently, has that augmented sound) and the diminished (which, inherently, has the diminished sound). When you play the diminished scale you WILL get the diminished sound... and when you play the whole-tone scale you'll get the augmented sound. That's just how it works because of the way we're conditioned.


See the quoted text? Well that seems to be the part you're not getting- as in: that's what I've been saying and that's what you're arguing with...

So it's a flawed argument? How? I would be interested as to how you would explain that my arguement- that diminished and augmentent are different things- is flawed, but your argument that- diminished and augmentent are different things- is not.

Quote by DiminishedFifth
That DOES NOT mean that a #4 has an augmented sound and a b5 has a diminished sound.


You do realise that you've just contradicted your own post, right?

None of these intervals is ever just in isolation in music. I mean, this is a music forum- makes sense to me to talk about music here. That has no bearing on how many tones or semitones are in a tritone (I don't know why people keep bringing that up...).
#36
Also, lets not forget the point I was actually disagreeing with:

Quote by Myshadow46_2
I'm pretty sure that, although enharmonic, a tritone is an augmented fourth; not a diminished 5th.
#37
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#38
Quote by chainsawguitar
Also, lets not forget the point I was actually disagreeing with:


I think he was basing that on a strict definition that he likely found on the internet.

I have seen it written that technically speaking, a tritone is an augmented 4th, not a diminished 5th.

Personally though, Im aware and accept that the term commonly refers to either, and see no practical reason to differentiate between the two.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 15, 2010,
#39
in the key of C, you don't have to change anything to find a tritone...
in the dominant seventh chord (= G7) you have: G B D F, and this is the most dissonant chord, because of the tritone between B and F (count the tones in between - 3) which is very unstable:
The B wants to 'move' down to C, and the F wants to 'move' down to E , and C and E are the most important notes of the C major chord, the tonic, which explains why the dominant seventh chord is a leading chord to C major.
#40
Quote by Eastwinn
A minor second is the most dissonant. Tritone is 7:5 and minor second is 15:16.


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