#1
If I'm playing in F#/Gb Phrygian how would I use the formulas to figure out which chords being to that mode? Normally, in the major scale you use 1 3 5 to find the major, would I still use this pattern in Phrygian?
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#2
Yes, stack thirds.
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Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
#3
Same notes as D major, so they share the same chords.

You dont want to use all the chords though, all you need to use is a A/F# and G/F# vamp.
#4
You guys are horrible at explaining.........

The notes are F# G A B C D E. Using the normal formula to make an F#maj I would use 1 3 5, meaning with this scale, the maj of the root would be F# A C. Somehow, that just doesn't seem right to me......
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#5
Quote by bambamm89
You guys are horrible at explaining.........

The notes are F# G A B C D E. Using the normal formula to make an F#maj I would use 1 3 5, meaning with this scale, the maj of the root would be F# A C. Somehow, that just doesn't seem right to me......



To figure out the chords in a mode, you should 1st understand the harmonized Major scale.

Example:
C Major....

C dm em F G Am Bdim

From there you can figure out the chords for the related modes, for example D Dorian...

Dm em F G Am Bdim C

or F lydian..

F G Am Bdim C Dm Em


and so on.


does that make sense to you?
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#6
I understand the harmonized major scale. What I don't understand is how to figure out which chords go with which scale when I'm not in Ionian
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Last edited by bambamm89 at Jun 10, 2010,
#7
Quote by bambamm89
I understand the harmonized major scale. What I don't understand is how to figure out which chords go with which scale when I'm not in Ionian

It's the exact same thing, but constructed with the notes from that scale.
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
#8
And that I comprehend. If I use the 1 3 5 to get a major from F# Phrygian, F# is my first note obviously, making my 3rd A and my 5th C. Which is not the same as a F#maj, so what chord am I constructing?
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ate a girl out on her period...

i regret nothing.


I know how to shred paper, does that count?
#9
Quote by bambamm89
And that I comprehend. If I use the 1 3 5 to get a major from F# Phrygian, F# is my first note obviously, making my 3rd A and my 5th C. Which is not the same as a F#maj, so what chord am I constructing?

You don't use a 1,3,5 if you're in Phrygian, you use 1,b3,5. If you don't understand why, you need to teach yourself how scales are constructed.
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
#10
That is what I was asking in the beginning. I asked if I should be using 1 3 5, thinking that was wrong. I've seen how some of the modes have been labeled 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8, 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8, etc. THAT is the part that I don't comprehend when it comes to chord construction.
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ate a girl out on her period...

i regret nothing.


I know how to shred paper, does that count?
#11
Quote by bambamm89
I understand the harmonized major scale. What I don't understand is how to figure out which chords go with which scale when I'm not in Ionian



No offense, but if you did, then you would have understood my post. Finding the chords of a mode, is the same as finding the chords for any other scale. Know the key sig..... build chords from each step. Thats it.
shred is gaudy music
#12
Quote by bambamm89
I've seen how some of the modes have been labeled 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8, 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8, etc. THAT is the part that I don't comprehend when it comes to chord construction.

It's just a formula for making a major scale into a modal scale.
Say C Major, but you want E Phrygian, so you can use E-F-G-A-B-C-D right? Starting from E to E?
The formula comes into play when you take an E Major scale and apply the Phrygian formula...

E Major = E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D#.
Phrygian formula = R-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7.
Which turns E Major into E-F-G-A-B-C-D, effectively flattening all the sharps turning it into the notes of C Major, but using a tonic of E.


E     F#    G#     A     B     C#    D#
1     2     3      4     5     6     7

E     F     G      A     B     C     D
1     b2    b3     4     5     b6    b7
#13
Quote by bambamm89
That is what I was asking in the beginning. I asked if I should be using 1 3 5, thinking that was wrong. I've seen how some of the modes have been labeled 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8, 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8, etc. THAT is the part that I don't comprehend when it comes to chord construction.
Check these lessons.
Steps and Accidentals
Major Scale
Diatonic Triads
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
#14
^ You just went over all the things I ALREADY know.

^^ That makes more sense and is better explained.
F# Phrygian is the same as D Ionian. But if I'm trying to figure out which chords I have available to me with F# as the root, I would use 1 b3 5 since that is the formula for Phrygian, right? Which would mean my notes would come out as F# A C, right?
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ate a girl out on her period...

i regret nothing.


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#15
Quote by bambamm89
F# Phrygian is the same as D Ionian. But if I'm trying to figure out which chords I have available to me with F# as the root, I would use 1 b3 5 since that is the formula for Phrygian, right? Which would mean my notes would come out as F# A C, right?


first off, F# phrygian is not the same as D ionian. they share the same notes. but there'll be plenty of time to argue semantics later.

1 b3 5 is the formula to build a minor chord. it just so happens that the first chord of phrygian is indeed a minor chord, so this is the right formula to use. building it off of F#, you get F# A C#. F# A C is F#º.

D major is D E F# G A B C# D. ergo, F# phrygian is F# G A B C# D E F#. if you just build chords using tertian harmony, you'll have your chords.

for the purpose of finding a set of chords within a given scale, it's probably better for you to understand it, rather than just take a formula and apply it to each note. so stack notes in thirds starting on each note once to obtain all seven triads diatonic to F# phrygian.
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#16
Quote by bambamm89
^ You just went over all the things I ALREADY know.

^^ That makes more sense and is better explained.
F# Phrygian is the same as D Ionian. But if I'm trying to figure out which chords I have available to me with F# as the root, I would use 1 b3 5 since that is the formula for Phrygian, right? Which would mean my notes would come out as F# A C, right?

Well, F# is the root, A is the minor third, but C is the flat 5th. You want a normal fifth, C#.
So try out F#min as a first chord, then to accentuate the mode you're in, you need to accentuate the flavor note (the b2, which is G), so try a Gmaj.
F#min - Gmaj.
#17
^^ I meant to say G Ionian, I'm sorry, I'm reading multiple articles at once trying to figure out all of this perfectly.
Quote by die_kenny_die
ate a girl out on her period...

i regret nothing.


I know how to shred paper, does that count?
#18
Quote by bambamm89
^^ I meant to say G Ionian, I'm sorry, I'm reading multiple articles at once trying to figure out all of this perfectly.

What does G Ionian have to do with this? What are you trying to do with modes here?
#19
I'm trying to get more fluent with modes, scales, and overall improvising. I read that I needed to learn to identify the key by the notes and chords being played. I know that the modes work off of the basic WWHWWWH, and the basics of chord formulas. What I'm trying to do is get myself more fluent in figuring out which chords match which modes/scales, instead of just playing the scale out note for note.
Quote by die_kenny_die
ate a girl out on her period...

i regret nothing.


I know how to shred paper, does that count?
#20
Quote by bambamm89
I'm trying to get more fluent with modes, scales, and overall improvising. I read that I needed to learn to identify the key by the notes and chords being played. I know that the modes work off of the basic WWHWWWH, and the basics of chord formulas. What I'm trying to do is get myself more fluent in figuring out which chords match which modes/scales, instead of just playing the scale out note for note.


then it might help you to know that true use of modes is pretty rare -- even in a modern context. i.e. if you have a progression in C major, you'd never solo in D dorian, E phrygian, etc. -- it'd always function as C major.

learning about keys, however, is a staple - make that your priority. but it's good that you're paying attention in an effort to get better.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#21
Quote by bambamm89
I'm trying to get more fluent with modes, scales, and overall improvising. I read that I needed to learn to identify the key by the notes and chords being played. I know that the modes work off of the basic WWHWWWH, and the basics of chord formulas. What I'm trying to do is get myself more fluent in figuring out which chords match which modes/scales, instead of just playing the scale out note for note.

I honestly have no idea what you're asking at this point.
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
#22
I think he's trying to overcomplicate matters, doing the old "D Dorian over D, E phrygian over Em in a C major progression" thing.
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#23
I honestly think that it would be best for you to go right back to the start, and improve your understanding of the major scale before you try to understand how modes work. I don't think that you really understand a lot about harmony, or modes, so trying to understand what you're asking will go right over your head.
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#24
I think you're going the wrong way looking into modes now. For two reasons:
1. There's stuff you should know well before learning modes, and I see you haven't quite grasped it.
2. Modes aren't all that useful.

What you need to know [better] is, minimally:
1. Three-note chord construction (major, minor, diminished, augmented -- even though diminished and augmented chords aren't often usable, I think it's good to know they exist)
2. What chords go into a major scale, and what chords go into a minor (natural minor, for now) scale (basically, the chords in which all the notes are part of the scale)

Regarding number 2, you've built up a misconception there that the chord corresponding to the root of a scale has to be major. That is definitely not the case. There are great articles on UG on that.

Some of these music theory rules can seem restricting (well, they ARE restricting...), and you'll often find that certain "violations" of the rules will sound good. But I think it's just like crossing a road. You might sometimes cross out of the crosswalk if it's convenient and you're sure there's no danger at all, but you wouldn't advise a child to do so.
#25
Okay, so in your major scale, your chords are I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii*. I being Ionian, ii being Dorian, etc. To figure out what chords would be in your phrygian mode, or any mode for that matter, just start on whatever mode you're in, in this case, phrygian. Start on the iii, but treat it as an i. You'll end up with i-II-III-iv-v*-VI-vii.

So if you're in F# Phrygian, just line up the notes, and you'll get your chords which are F#m, G, A, Bm, C#Diminished, D, and Em.

You could think of it like this way too; F# Phrygian is relative to D Major, so you'll have all the same chords in D Major as you would in F# Phrygian, you would just think of the iii chord in D Major as your i.

Hope that helps...

EDIT: And to clarify what Aeolianwolf said in an earlier post, you can figure out what notes will be in what chord if you know the notes in your scale.

F# G A B C# D and E are your notes in F# Phrygian, yes? Let's say you wanted to figure out what chord would be on the D note. Just go in thirds from your D in your scale to build your chord. (D) E (F#) G (A) B C#. The notes in parrenthesis are the notes in your chord. Do the same thing for any of those notes to find out what chord it would be. Or you could do what I told you above and save yourself some trouble. But it is important to know this as well, because this will help you build more complicated chords, like 7ths, 9ths, etc. They're all just stacked thirds.
Last edited by aCloudConnected at Jun 11, 2010,
#26
Figuring out all the chords in a mode is pretty pointless. you aren't going to be able to use 60% of them.

If you want a modal progression take the IV and V chords from the relative major key and play them over the root of the mode.

for example C lydian = C -> D/C
#27
Pay attention to your progressions. You do stack the third and the fifth of the mode with the root.

Phrygian = HWWWHWW

H Being a half step, W being a Whole Step.

Follow the progressions, you'll get the roots of every chord that belong to that mode.
#28
I think you might wanna split that into two steps, modes are something that always get a little tricky for people and should be something you study by itself without the distraction of trying to learn several other things. In my opinion, before you can get into modes you should...

Be fluent with scales and understand why that scale is made teh way it is, with several different types of scales.

Understand basic chord construction (which it seems you do, but just stating it)

Understand how adds and sus. are made.. like the common Cadd9 for example.

then go to modes once you have nothing else as a distraction
#29
Reading many articles at once will be your downfall... you are trying to rush into something when you can't create the chord for it. And don't say you can create the chord otherwise your posts are pointless and lies.

If you did understand how to harmonize a key... you'd know that phrygian is on the 3rd degree hence it is a minor chord... Start at he beginning, like everyone suggests... for if you did know it, once again, you would know its a minor chord and how to construct it.

edit.. whatever your friends said about modes and how cool they are... they lied!
Last edited by evolucian at Jun 12, 2010,
#30
modes are bullshit. Stick to major/minor and work everything out from that.
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