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#1
Wondering, as its not on the recommended bands listing, are they essentially punk?

Just possibly a discussion of whether you like them or not.

Also, what do you think of the bass being a treble in a band (something Joy Division does in nearly every song).
Personally, I love it.

And has anyone seen the BioPic Control about Ian Curtis' life?
Quote by BrianApocalypse
AntiFlag are about as punk as Justin Lame's excuse for a mohawk.

i.e. really gay.
#2
I'm pretty sure Joy Division is welcome here. There's probably already a thread though.

I'm not a big fan, but I like to listen to them occasionally.
#4
Pretty sure there's already a thread, but whatever. I love Joy Division, and I love Hook's bass playing. I think that Joy Division are a great example of how you can take something incredibly simple and minimalistic and make it sound amazing.

I saw Control a while back. It didn't really provide any fantastic new insight into Joy Division's music or anything.

Slightly on topic, I was at Barnes & Noble once and I picked up a copy of Gogol's Dead Souls, and "Dead Souls" started playing on the radio. Which is completely ridiculous on multiple levels, since that's not even one of their better known songs. I think some employee must have been fucking with me, but it was still pretty cool.
#5
D: Sorry i didnt check haha. I agree wholeheartedly, the bass playing is like no other. Everything is repeated throughout the song too, so it creates for some really good storytelling effects, and I like his lyrics.

And the Dead Souls thing is impossibly awesome. Someone had to have been ****ing with you. haha
Quote by BrianApocalypse
AntiFlag are about as punk as Justin Lame's excuse for a mohawk.

i.e. really gay.
#6
I like Joy Division.


That's all I can contribute.
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
#7
Quote by element4433
I like Joy Division.


That's all I can contribute.

Same here. I liked the rougher stuff they did earlier, but I guess I appreciate the more ambient stuff too.

But that's all I really have to say.
Quote by emoboy027
Is fingering an emo chick that likes yoy and that has fallen in love with you is it wrong to you to finger her during lunch outside in front of everyone at the high school? would you not care or lol even wish it was you?

Youztoobz
MIDI Magicalness!
#9
I can't say that I enjoy them very much...
but I can say that I don't really like them.
I'm an asshole.
#10
Quote by JohnnyBlunders
Wondering, as its not on the recommended bands listing, are they essentially punk?

They most certainly started out as a punk band. I think many people would be more inclined to label them as "post-punk."

Of course, what people think of "punk" has changed over the years, just as what people think of "rock" and "rap." Say the word "rock" and people think of Led Zep, not Gene Vincent. Say the word "rap" and people think of 50 Cent, not Grandmaster Flash.
#11
I've been obsessing over them lately, actually. Tose lase 3 songs on Closer are just so emotional and deep and stuff, man.
#13
I don't think Tony is around so I'll just say what I'm pretty sure he and me are thinking.

Pretentious boring bullshit.
Journalism is just a gun. It's only got one bullet in it, but if you aim right, that's all you need. Aim it right, and you can blow a kneecap off the world.
#14
I f*cking hate Joy Division. If you think for some reason that they're a particularly good new wave band - which they aren't - then you're amongst the diet coke of music enthusiasts.

Peter Hook is a mug, and Ian Curtis dead. And the other one's called Beefcurtains or some dumb thing like that.

Echo and the Bunnymen? YES, yes indeed.
Bauhaus? Yep.
Joy Division/New Order? F*ck off.

All indie kids are obsessed as well. It's like, at least pick one of the good groups.

I don't care for the Smiths either. I do like Steven Morrissey's solo stuff though. But as I've asserted before, British new wave music was sh*te.
#15
Imma go put on some Bunnymen now.
Quote by emoboy027
Is fingering an emo chick that likes yoy and that has fallen in love with you is it wrong to you to finger her during lunch outside in front of everyone at the high school? would you not care or lol even wish it was you?

Youztoobz
MIDI Magicalness!
#16
Let's be best friends Mat.
Journalism is just a gun. It's only got one bullet in it, but if you aim right, that's all you need. Aim it right, and you can blow a kneecap off the world.
#18
Quote by BrianApocalypse
I f*cking hate Joy Division. If you think for some reason that they're a particularly good new wave band - which they aren't - then you're amongst the diet coke of music enthusiasts.

Peter Hook is a mug, and Ian Curtis dead. And the other one's called Beefcurtains or some dumb thing like that.

Echo and the Bunnymen? YES, yes indeed.
Bauhaus? Yep.
Joy Division/New Order? F*ck off.

All indie kids are obsessed as well. It's like, at least pick one of the good groups.

I don't care for the Smiths either. I do like Steven Morrissey's solo stuff though. But as I've asserted before, British new wave music was sh*te.


:O
What does Ian Curtis being dead and Peter Hook being silly have to do with this?
I simply like it. I do understand the idea if it being pretentious and that its "the diet coke", but all in the same its laid back music. But thats one persons opinion
Quote by BrianApocalypse
AntiFlag are about as punk as Justin Lame's excuse for a mohawk.

i.e. really gay.
#19
I think it's even more pretentious to dismiss Joy Division as worthless shit, as if your opinion was a musical fact. I can respect the fact that you don't like them, and that you hate indie kids who love them, but it's pretty stupid to say that people are wrong for thinking they're good.
#20
^That seems to happen a lot around here though.
Quote by emoboy027
Is fingering an emo chick that likes yoy and that has fallen in love with you is it wrong to you to finger her during lunch outside in front of everyone at the high school? would you not care or lol even wish it was you?

Youztoobz
MIDI Magicalness!
#21
Yeah, kinda like when I ranted against psychobilly, right? You needn't point out my glaring hypocrisies, I'm well aware of them! But I'll be damned if I'm gonna sit here silently and let someone discredit one of my favorite bands.
#22

Spoken like a tru p0nx.
Quote by emoboy027
Is fingering an emo chick that likes yoy and that has fallen in love with you is it wrong to you to finger her during lunch outside in front of everyone at the high school? would you not care or lol even wish it was you?

Youztoobz
MIDI Magicalness!
#23
Quote by neidnarb11890
I think it's even more pretentious to dismiss Joy Division as worthless shit, as if your opinion was a musical fact. I can respect the fact that you don't like them, and that you hate indie kids who love them, but it's pretty stupid to say that people are wrong for thinking they're good.


It's not stupid for me to say that at all, it's informed because I have the US equivalent of a master's degree in musicology. While my opinion is still only an opinion, the underlying expertise behind it makes it a lot more valid than anyone else's. I don't concede that this is a pretentious argument for me to make either, because Brian does actually know best in this instance.

I don't have that big a problem with actually having to listen to Joy Division (as long it isn't "Love will tear us apart"), I just don't see the point when I could listen to a far superior band. Of course, it's easier not to want to check out to these superior groups, and to just listen to the popular group that has been canonised by the corporate pimps and rodents that are the music press.

It's not that I think that people are wrong per se, I just think they're misguided. If people really do love Joy Division that much, then fair enough, I just think they're being closed-minded and taking the easy way out.

...much like Ian Curtis did!
#24
They're post-punk for sure, but one of those bands who fall on the punkier side of post-punk.

Sort of agree with BrianApocolypse here. I mean, I like them a lot but I do think they're pretty overrated.
#25
Quote by BrianApocalypse
It's not stupid for me to say that at all, it's informed because I have the US equivalent of a master's degree in musicology. While my opinion is still only an opinion, the underlying expertise behind it makes it a lot more valid than anyone else's. I don't concede that this is a pretentious argument for me to make either, because Brian does actually know best in this instance.

I don't have that big a problem with actually having to listen to Joy Division (as long it isn't "Love will tear us apart"), I just don't see the point when I could listen to a far superior band. Of course, it's easier not to want to check out to these superior groups, and to just listen to the popular group that has been canonised by the corporate pimps and rodents that are the music press.

It's not that I think that people are wrong per se, I just think they're misguided. If people really do love Joy Division that much, then fair enough, I just think they're being closed-minded and taking the easy way out.

...much like Ian Curtis did!


Kind of a douchey post dude. I wouldn't say anyone here knows any more about music than anyone else really. We're all fairly knowledgeable when it comes to the subject, and a piece of paper does differentiate you from someone who has spent countless hours of their own free time learning about music.

Liking Joy Division is only taking the easy way out if, like you've said, you think there's no need to check out other bands because you already listen to Joy Division. You know the people on here don't act like that, so that's a wholly irrelevant point to make.

Essentially, you're complaining about hipsters and indie-chic kids (which you expressed in an earlier post), but that's kind of pointless. We all complain about the indie kids.

You make it seem like you think you're the only person who has listened to the band's contemporaries when we all know that's false.

I would definitely not say I'm misguided for liking a few JD songs.

All in the name of debate though, I guess.
Quote by emoboy027
Is fingering an emo chick that likes yoy and that has fallen in love with you is it wrong to you to finger her during lunch outside in front of everyone at the high school? would you not care or lol even wish it was you?

Youztoobz
MIDI Magicalness!
Last edited by nashawa at Jun 23, 2010,
#26
I like Joy Division. I have their albums on my ipod, I listen to them when I'm in a mood of isolation. I like their song Transmission greatly, and I like how their song Incubation is all instrumental.
#27
Quote by nashawa
Kind of a douchey post dude.


This I agree with. Wholeheartedly.

Liking Joy Division is only taking the easy way out if, like you've said, you think there's no need to check out other bands because you already listen to Joy Division. You know the people on here don't act like that, so that's a wholly irrelevant point to make.

Essentially, you're complaining about hipsters and indie-chic kids (which you expressed in an earlier post), but that's kind of pointless. We all complain about the indie kids.

You make it seem like you think you're the only person who has listened to the band's contemporaries when we all know that's false.

I would definitely not say I'm misguided for liking a few JD songs.

All in the name of debate though, I guess.


This I agree with some of, and disagree with other parts of. It's not something I particularly want to engage in intercourse with, because the next section is more worthy of my considerably valuable time. For all intents and purposes I am prepared to concede that I am an arrogant c*nt.

For the record though, I don't think that people have neccessarily explored some of the other groups in that level of detail.

It pisses me off that pedestrian musicians like Peter Hook - the idea of him inventing the high bass thing is ludicrous, he didn't even exclusively play high on the neck to destroy the concept of tonal and timbral contrast, and that IMHO isn't innovation - are getting that kind of acclaim, and are scraping in the big bucks. A while back there was a TV show over here called the JD set, where every week they'd do a program on one of the most banal contemporary groups, and at the end Hooky would be asked about them, and he liked every one of them. The ONLY good group to be on that program was Foals, which should give you an idea as to just how f*cking awful the show was.

If there was any justice, it would be the other, more deserving bands that were raking in the money. Such as these fellas. And this is nowhere near being one of their best songs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF7f7iHPYTw

But I maintain that it's better than anything Joy Division or New Order have done. It's better written, has better hooks and has an awesome feel and arrangement. And I've studied theory and transcription to a high level. I even went on a dumb songwriting shortcourse.

But feel free to suggest a superior track by JD. I dare you.

This is the best I've heard, and it's the sonic equivalent of taking a dump on a turntable. Where's the writing talent?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZwMs2fLoVE

I wouldn't say anyone here knows any more about music than anyone else really. We're all fairly knowledgeable when it comes to the subject, and a piece of paper does differentiate you from someone who has spent countless hours of their own free time learning about music.


This is a whole bunch of crap.

Learning about music in your own free time isn't going to make you as informed a fan, because you'll by and large just read wikipedia pages, interview footage, magazine articles and the odd book. Maybe even the film about Joy Division, "24-hour party people", which asserts that the members plus their manager of JD plus their manager were at the sex pistols gig, and that John the Postman was dismissed as 'just a postman', when in fact he was a huge protagonist in the Manchester punk scene.

Does the casual fan know this is factually very innaccurate? No, because they take these things at face value. There's your difference.

Has anyone here bothered to read academic journals or books (as opposed to commercial biographies which are generally simplified) when researching bands that they'd like to learn more abouts? They're by-and-large written in a journalistic style, but you get a structured discussion, rather than being told what's what, like a mug.

I've also conducted interview footage (one notable highlight was a brief Q+A with Klaus Flouride discussing some of the intricacies behind FFFRV's production) - isn't this going beyond the casual music fan who wants to read up?

Unlike what Billy Bragg asserted in "to have and to have not", that level of qualification in non-practical arts is by no means a piece of paper.

Don't get me wrong, this is an intelligent forum on the whole, but that doesn't automatically make everyone a hardcore academic. No offense to anyone here, but to suggest that would be a quantum leap.

What I've written probably doesn't flow very well, but hey.
#28
Jesus Christ. This thread is one big clusterfuck.

I think Joy Division are alright. His voice drains me sometimes, but I can listen to them once in a while. When they were Warsaw I always felt like they were missing the more interesting artistic side of Joy Division, and when they were Joy Division, I felt like they were missing the energy I wanted to hear. But all in all, I like 'em. I find myself listening to Closer more than Unknown Pleasures.

Funny enough though, the way Brian feels about Joy Division is how I feel about the Ramones sometimes! I know that's blasphemous, but they just never do all that much for me....however that's neither here nor there.
DOWN&OUT
#29
Quote by BrianApocalypse

Has anyone here bothered to read academic journals or books (as opposed to commercial biographies which are generally simplified) when researching bands that they'd like to learn more abouts? They're by-and-large written in a journalistic style, but you get a structured discussion, rather than being told what's what, like a mug.



Honestly though, I'm taking musicology right now, AND I like some JD. Go figure, eh?

I will concede that given the option, I'd rather listen to basically any other post-punk band before them though.
Quote by emoboy027
Is fingering an emo chick that likes yoy and that has fallen in love with you is it wrong to you to finger her during lunch outside in front of everyone at the high school? would you not care or lol even wish it was you?

Youztoobz
MIDI Magicalness!
#30
Quote by BrianApocalypse
(as long it isn't "Love will tear us apart")



Why? It's their best song.
#31
I Remember Nothing is clearly their best song.
Quote by ChemicalFire
The point of underground bands is their not popular or famous most of the time. Thus there is a good chance they suck.
#32
Yo Brian, The Church is to Joy Division as apples are to oranges. Not really a similar style. Even though they both fall into the post-punk category, they're sort of at opposite ends of that spectrum.
#33
Music is a hobby for me. I'm not gonna dedicate my time to the academic study of it. I like Joy Division, some guy telling me that there are better bands isn't going to change my mind, whether he has a "musicology" degree or not. (To kind of sort of touch on Jett's post) there are plenty of punk bands that are "better" than the Ramones, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna stop jamming and loving Rocket to Russia.
#34
In terms of just being a music fan, I completely understand and respect that, but I can't really comprehend your indifference to academia. Any kind of sociological study is fascinating and thought-evoking, and you really do find yourself drawn in to a deeper seat of ideas and principles when thinking about it.

I mean, when I was a lot younger I used to listen to stuff like Peter Green and the Dead Kennedys and just appreciate them at a musical level, but when you think about the sonic envelopment and the nuances in the music (nuances in joy division? they're non-existent) and the conditions under which these recordings were made, the reality of them is that they're mind-blowingly fantastic. The gravity of the situation is that these individuals were breaking ground in a wonderful way. Before, when I was just a thick child like most people I didn't have that kind of fulfillment out of music. I loved it to pieces (quite literally, with some cds and cassettes!) but nowhere near as much as I do now.

Maybe it's the kind of thing where you're just supposed to enjoy music and take it at a more face value approach, and that ignorance is the virtue here (of course I use that term losely, because I don't consider it to be truly ignorant so much as lacking in imagination and brainpower).

But I for one have much more passion for music for understanding it to that level. I mean you listen out for every intricacy so much more, and the level of enjoyment goes up because you appreciate the music so much more. And that's not even from the musical side of studying.

Quote by sargasm
Yo Brian, The Church is to Joy Division as apples are to oranges. Not really a similar style. Even though they both fall into the post-punk category, they're sort of at opposite ends of that spectrum.


I can see why you'd think that, but in actuality the Church have done a bit of everything. Aside from some of the obvious upbeat stuff, and the spacey stuff (no relation to actor Kevin) there's also a lot of fairly melancoly stuff.

Sure, the syntax is quite different, but you can see similar moods and feeling evoked in some of the Church's stuff. Forget yourself is one comparable listen, just off the top of my head.

I think that's so much cooler than Joy Division's one-track-mind kind of sound, where they never really opened up as musicians, and instead relied on relatively pedestrian ideas and even lyrics devices.

It's just not something that puts me in awe at all, because it's like black and white television, all dull and muted. And I'm not even taking the subcultural higher ground here, because I love lots of hugely famous pop-orientated music. I just can't see why Joy Division deserve to wear the New Wave crown.

But if you guys get that kind of life-affirming thrill, then so be it. I just couldn't imagine that happening if hell froze over because there's quite literally nothing there behind the face value of the music.

And Nash, I think you'll get what I'm saying later on. Early days in any qualifaction is always the banal 101 stuff that you could easily teach yourself with a copy of hustler, a stick of chalk and the back of a chocolate wrapper.

I'm quite happy to agree to disagree here, I obviously don't have the ethos of the casual listener and I wouldn't want to. But I don't think you can condemn an all-encompassing study of music in the same way than you can (rightfully and righteously) condemn a shallow one.
Last edited by BrianApocalypse at Jun 24, 2010,
#35
I'mma go ahead and say it. neidnarb11890 is my fave d00d on these forums.

Reading Brians posts gave me a flashback to Nemo. I shuddered.
#36
Brian, as someone who has written sociology papers on the Dolls, Patti Smith, Richard Hell, and my own punk scene----I enjoy Joy Division. They're not my favorite band ever, but they have their moments. Can we still be secret punx forum lovers?

Seriously, I dig the academia. I always like to write on punx cause I feel like it's a totally underrated important American movement (British too, but I'm more interested in the American side).
DOWN&OUT
#37
I think this whole debate or argument or whatnot is dumb, at least on Mr. Apocalypse's end, because 99.9% of the regulars of this forum are very knowledgeable on punk and its various subgenres and the movements surrounding it. So I think calling most of the people that post here 'casual music listeners' is silly. We're not a bunch of Misfits fans that just discovered Bad Brains and the Dead Kennedys.

Plus it's not like you have to know the ins and outs of a band's history to enjoy that band's music. I dig Joy Division's tunes, but I don't know the history of their band (except that Ian Curtis hung himself, the became New Order, and they used to be Warsaw). I guess I can see how know about Ian's suicide could make you appreciate Closer more, but I still liked it before I knew about that. And I liked Fugazi before I knew their detailed history and policies as a band. And I liked Jawbreaker before I read almost every interview they did.

And at the same time, just because I know a lot about Jawbreaker's history and the backlash they got when they signed to a major label, that doesn't mean that I think my opinion on the band's music is better than somebody that doesn't know all that stuff--somebody that just likes the way it sounds. I know that "Million" is an allegory for being courted by major labels, but somebody can like the song just as much as me and think it's solely about wanting to be in a relationship.

I don't know where I'm going with this, but when it comes down to it music is just opinions, and studying music doesn't make your opinion better than other people's. Cuz I mean, a lot of music majors really like Dream Theater. And Dream Theater is ****ing awful.
*-)
Quote by Bob_Sacamano
i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
#38
Quote by element4433
I don't know where I'm going with this, but when it comes down to it music is just opinions, and studying music doesn't make your opinion better than other people's.


To pose this in a different way by using a very simple paradigm, is it better to like music because you think it's good, or is it better to like music because your peers like it?

Admittedly, the critical point is that you enjoy the music, but I think that most people would agree that by finding something yourself you do appreciate the music more, whereas if it's a social thing with your pals the music itself actually takes a back seat.

I do actually feel very sorry for people who aren't interested in engaging in detailed listening of music (often at the wrong pitch and tempo) just to hear everything that's going on. Sure, that's very "silly", but it's also much more enjoyable and appreciable, because there's almost always a lot of stuff going on that you don't notice.

It's very nerdy, but it's also that ethos that's spawned a lot of genres. Certain branches of new wave included.

Dream Theater are awful though so at least we can agree on something.

I'm just going to say 'I don't particularly care for Joy Division' and leave it at that, because I need a beer.
#40
oh shit, anyone want my joy division cds? can't be bothered to read academic journals or books beyond the joy division allmusic page.
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