#1
Hey everybody I just had a quick question, I was looking at the chord changes for Knights of Cydonia by Muse, starting right after the intro, at about 0:55 (the last stanza of chord changes has vocals over it)

Em G C G
B C Eb G
Cm G Ab Eb
G Ab Eb G
Cm

Cm Eb G# Eb
G G# B Eb
G# Eb E B
Eb E B Eb
G#m

G#m B E B
Eb E G B
Em B C G
B C G B
Em

Anyways, I was reading online about chord cycles and chord substitutions like Coltrane used in Giant Steps and Countdown etc. and the idea of shifting key centers by the interval of a major 3rd like Coltrane did. When I listen to Knights of Cydonia it really seems to me like the key seemlessly changes from E minor, to C minor, to G# minor, then finally back to E minor- down by major 3rds. Just wondering if anyone would consider this to be similar to Coltrane's method of shifting the key center by major 3rds? Even if it happens much slower in KoC than it does in Giant Steps...Or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. I just started to grasp the structure of Giant Steps recently...

PS I posted this in the Songwriting subforum as well but I guess it makes more sense to post here. Sorry moderators
#2
Quote by stasz
Hey everybody I just had a quick question, I was looking at the chord changes for Knights of Cydonia by Muse, starting right after the intro, at about 0:55 (the last stanza of chord changes has vocals over it)

Em G C G
B C Eb G
Cm G Ab Eb
G Ab Eb G
Cm

Cm Eb G# Eb
G G# B Eb
G# Eb E B
Eb E B Eb
G#m

G#m B E B
Eb E G B
Em B C G
B C G B
Em

Anyways, I was reading online about chord cycles and chord substitutions like Coltrane used in Giant Steps and Countdown etc. and the idea of shifting key centers by the interval of a major 3rd like Coltrane did. When I listen to Knights of Cydonia it really seems to me like the key seemlessly changes from E minor, to C minor, to G# minor, then finally back to E minor- down by major 3rds. Just wondering if anyone would consider this to be similar to Coltrane's method of shifting the key center by major 3rds? Even if it happens much slower in KoC than it does in Giant Steps...Or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. I just started to grasp the structure of Giant Steps recently...

PS I posted this in the Songwriting subforum as well but I guess it makes more sense to post here. Sorry moderators


first, C down to G# is not a major third. it's a diminished fourth. C to Ab is a major third.

second, i don't see why it's different. coltrane shifted the tonal center by major thirds, and knights of cydonia shifted the tonal center by major thirds. how is that NOT similar?
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#3
It may be kinda similar, but not really. With Coltrane changes, the tonal center was changed and established over 2 or 3 chords, very unlike the 15 or so chords in the Muse song. I would call it similar in the fact that it modulates by major 3rds, but I wouldn't call it the same conventions as Coltrane changes.
#4
Quote by AeolianWolf
first, C down to G# is not a major third. it's a diminished fourth. C to Ab is a major third.

second, i don't see why it's different. coltrane shifted the tonal center by major thirds, and knights of cydonia shifted the tonal center by major thirds. how is that NOT similar?


I don't mean to be smart, but G# and Ab are enharmonic no? So it is a major third down from C to G# isn't it? It would be a tritone/diminished fourth down to Gb right? I'm guessing you just misread the sharp sign as a flat sign.

I was just asking if anyone else thought it could be considered similar to Coltrane's chord substitution because it is a different genre of music, and I hadn't ever heard someone else say something about their similarity before.
#5
Quote by timeconsumer09
It may be kinda similar, but not really. With Coltrane changes, the tonal center was changed and established over 2 or 3 chords, very unlike the 15 or so chords in the Muse song. I would call it similar in the fact that it modulates by major 3rds, but I wouldn't call it the same conventions as Coltrane changes.


I was thinking that too--the songs don't sound very similar if you listen to KoC and Giant Steps. Also I forgot to realize that all of the chords in Giant Steps include 7ths 9ths 11ths and 13ths
#6
Quote by stasz
I don't mean to be smart, but G# and Ab are enharmonic no? So it is a major third down from C to G# isn't it? It would be a tritone/diminished fourth down to Gb right? I'm guessing you just misread the sharp sign as a flat sign.


i misread nothing. G# and Ab are enharmonic, which means they sound the same. G# and Ab are the same only in sound. sound aside, they're two entirely different notes, and they're written differently on staff paper.

G# to C is a diminished fourth. Ab to C is a major third.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#7
Quote by stasz
I don't mean to be smart, but G# and Ab are enharmonic no? So it is a major third down from C to G# isn't it? It would be a tritone/diminished fourth down to Gb right? I'm guessing you just misread the sharp sign as a flat sign.

I was just asking if anyone else thought it could be considered similar to Coltrane's chord substitution because it is a different genre of music, and I hadn't ever heard someone else say something about their similarity before.

when dealing with intervals, the name of the note is where you get the distance, or the distance away it is (lines and spaces) on manuscript
F up to Csharp is an augmented fifth, but F to Db is a minor sixth, even though both notes sound the same they're not the same interval.
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#8
Quote by AeolianWolf
i misread nothing. G# and Ab are enharmonic, which means they sound the same. G# and Ab are the same only in sound. sound aside, they're two entirely different notes, and they're written differently on staff paper.

G# to C is a diminished fourth. Ab to C is a major third.


OK-- I see what you mean now. Sorry, I honestly didn't mean to try and correct you or anything. I'm a noob here and a noob to music theory and I can tell from lurking the forums that you have a lot of experience, so thanks for clearing that up.
#9
Quote by stasz
OK-- I see what you mean now. Sorry, I honestly didn't mean to try and correct you or anything. I'm a noob here and a noob to music theory and I can tell from lurking the forums that you have a lot of experience, so thanks for clearing that up.


no need to apologize. the way i use words, it sounds at times like i'm being a little condescending or mean, but really i just try to say what i mean in as few words as possible. besides, it's difficult to piss me off unless you tell me about this great solo you played using the D dorian mode over a I IV V progression in C.

don't worry too much about it. if you have any more questions, feel free to come back and seek help. i like to think that as a whole, we're pretty useful here in MT.
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#10
Quote by AeolianWolf
no need to apologize. the way i use words, it sounds at times like i'm being a little condescending or mean, but really i just try to say what i mean in as few words as possible. besides, it's difficult to piss me off unless you tell me about this great solo you played using the D dorian mode over a I IV V progression in C.

don't worry too much about it. if you have any more questions, feel free to come back and seek help. i like to think that as a whole, we're pretty useful here in MT.


Haha thanks for the reassurance. Well now that you mention it I have a video of me playing a solo in G mixolydian over Heart & Soul in C...juuust kidding
#11
Quote by stasz
Haha thanks for the reassurance. Well now that you mention it I have a video of me playing a solo in G mixolydian over Heart & Soul in C...juuust kidding


Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#12
Quote by stasz
I don't mean to be smart, but G# and Ab are enharmonic no? So it is a major third down from C to G# isn't it? It would be a tritone/diminished fourth down to Gb right? I'm guessing you just misread the sharp sign as a flat sign.

I was just asking if anyone else thought it could be considered similar to Coltrane's chord substitution because it is a different genre of music, and I hadn't ever heard someone else say something about their similarity before.

A quick note: you mean augmented fourth there.
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#13
Quote by DaddyTwoFoot
A quick note: you mean augmented fourth there.


Yeah that's right, my bad, thanks