#1
ok one question at a time

1. it seems to me that chord progression directly correlate with modes, in example, i'll use C major

C D E F G A B C

a simple ii-V-I progression which is Dm7, G7 and C would complimented to their full potential with their respective modes which would equate to dorian, mixolydian, and ionian

am i correct in this experiment ?
#3
wow, a year ago, i was like wtf is all this ...and it seems just by naming that progression, an interest in jazz in assumed
#4
Quote by fenderstrat730
ok one question at a time

1. it seems to me that chord progression directly correlate with modes, in example, i'll use C major

C D E F G A B C

a simple ii-V-I progression which is Dm7, G7 and C would complimented to their full potential with their respective modes which would equate to dorian, mixolydian, and ionian

am i correct in this experiment ?

Not really no, that's not how modes work - if you have a chord progression then generally wherever that progression resolves to dictates what scales to use. However it does depend on the chords themselves - for example in your progression of Dm7 G7 C if you're thinking you'd be using D Dorian, G mixolydian and C ionian then you're mistaken. All you're doing there is playing in C major, modes don't even come into the equation. It's also got absolutely nothing to do with Pitch Axis.

Whilst you can create modal progressins if you're careful enough the best way to understand modes is to use them over a static base line or single chord vamp. It's easier that way because it's closest to how modes were traditionally, which means it's far easier to get a handle on how they function musically. Once you understand them then you can look at getting more complex with them.
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#5
i thought itd be right, since the progression is C major, but is what i said not right at all ?, or is the way i explained it limiting to what i can do with modes ?
#6
And that's exactly my point, if you're playing over a C major progression then modes don't technically exist.

Don't fall into the trap of looking for modes where they don't apply.
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#7
Quote by fenderstrat730
ok one question at a time

1. it seems to me that chord progression directly correlate with modes, in example, i'll use C major

C D E F G A B C

a simple ii-V-I progression which is Dm7, G7 and C would complimented to their full potential with their respective modes which would equate to dorian, mixolydian, and ionian

am i correct in this experiment ?


absolutely not. you're using C major, and nothing more. i don't see why the guy above brought up pitch axis, as it's completely irrelevant.

i also noticed i said pretty much the same things as seagull. he nailed it - modes don't even apply here.
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#8
ok so basically modes are a double edged sword, i got that part

so where do modes even come into play, i thought it was altering a scale in the right places to achieve the unique sound over certain chords
#9
Quote by fenderstrat730
ok so basically modes are a double edged sword, i got that part


what?

Quote by fenderstrat730
so where do modes even come into play, i thought it was altering a scale in the right places to achieve the unique sound over certain chords


modes come into play when the harmony is reflective of such. if you have a ii-V-I in C, you wouldn't play D dorian, G mixolydian, and C ionian - you'd just play C major. why? well, you have a ii-V-I in C. meaning that Cmaj is the I, which means that C is the tonic. if C is your tonic, why would you play a scale with a different tonic? you'd be suggesting two tonics, and that's ridiculous (unless you're going for a certain sound/effect, which i highly doubt you are).

honestly, though, you probably weren't even playing G mixolydian and D dorian. you were always playing C major. you probably played the G mixolydian pattern and the D dorian pattern, but they were functioning as C major.

modes are less about altering scales to achieve a unique sound -- you can do that in a major or minor key without using modes. it's only a mode when the harmony reflects it. if you had the chords Dm7 Em7 and C and it resolved on C, then it's in C major (or it could be called C ionian in this case). if you have those chords but you force them to resolve on D, then you're in D dorian. i took out G7 because G7 really wants to lead to Cmaj, and if you tonicize C, then you're not in D dorian.

modes aren't hard at all. you just need a really strong understanding of tonal harmony to understand them correctly. if you don't understand what i just said (particularly the first paragraph) then you might want to go back and study tonal harmony a bit more.
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#10
Quote by fenderstrat730
ok so basically modes are a double edged sword, i got that part

so where do modes even come into play, i thought it was altering a scale in the right places to achieve the unique sound over certain chords

But in your example you weren't, were you?
Think about it, you've only ever been using the notes C D E F G A B - that's the C major scale in the context of a C major progression. If you "play D dorian over the Dm7 chord" you're still using the notes C D E F G A B...nothing's been altered. Your progression hasn't changed therefore your tonic hasn't changed therefore those notes are still C major.

Now, if you use those notes over a static Dm7 chord they will indeed be D dorian ad that chord alone will establish a new tonal centre of D, but place that chord in the context of a progression that resolved to the major tonic, C, then modes go out of the window and you've just got a straight up C major progression.
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#11
ok this is what i got from the first paragraph, if i read that right, then you;re telling me that a mode doesn't function correctly when it has a tonal center i.e C, correct ? and just playing the mode patterns mentioned herein only serve as to compliment the tonic, also correct ?

but if thats the case,it seems to me that modes are meant only for use over chords when not following a progression or just pretty much jamming with no direction
#13
Quote by fenderstrat730
ok this is what i got from the first paragraph, if i read that right, then you;re telling me that a mode doesn't function correctly when it has a tonal center i.e C, correct ? and just playing the mode patterns mentioned herein only serve as to compliment the tonic, also correct ?

but if thats the case,it seems to me that modes are meant only for use over chords when not following a progression or just pretty much jamming with no direction

That's not a bad way of looking at things at this stage. Modes aren't "meant" for anyything, they are what they are - and once you understand that you'll be in a position to make use of them.

mode "patterns" mean absolutely nothing, what matters is the notes you're using and the context they're being used in.
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#14
so in other words, modes are just 7 ways to play over one chord and make whatever solo you create, come up sounding different each time over that one chord
#15
Quote by fenderstrat730
so in other words, modes are just 7 ways to play over one chord and make whatever solo you create, come up sounding different each time over that one chord

No.

Modes are set scales with specific intervals, they also share the same notes as the major scale. If you use those notes over a static backing or chord progression specifically constructed with that mode in mind then you'll get a mode. If you use them over a bog standard major or minor progression then you'll just have the relative major or minor scale.
Actually called Mark!

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#16
at this point i understand that simply using the "mixolydian or dorian pattern during a progression doesn't do anything modal, that merely repeats the notes on a different tonic...

so in order to use modes like they were supposed to be used, id have to construct chords based around the specific intervals for the mode or modes i had in mind ?

if i hit the nail on the head right there, then i have one thing i still cant wrap my head around, and that is how to not have a tonal center
#17
let me try to take one more stab at this before i go to bed - it's 7 AM here and i really need to get out of my nocturnal sleep schedule soon.

so you have a progression. doesn't matter which chords you have, but they contain no notes other than the following: C D E F G A B C. if C is your tonal center, then you're in major (or possibly ionian, depending on the context). if D is your tonal center, THEN you're in D dorian. if E is your tonal center, then you're in E phrygian. if F, then F lydian. if G, G mixolydian. if A, A minor (or aeolian, depending on the context. and if B...well, let's be serious. i've seen maybe two or three compositions in locrian - it's extremely rare. but yes, if your tonal center was B, you'd be in B locrian. get me?

EDIT:

Quote by fenderstrat730
at this point i understand that simply using the "mixolydian or dorian pattern during a progression doesn't do anything modal, that merely repeats the notes on a different tonic...


not even. you still have the same tonic. in truth, the only thing that's different is where on the fretboard you're playing the notes.

Quote by fenderstrat730
so in order to use modes like they were supposed to be used, id have to construct chords based around the specific intervals for the mode or modes i had in mind ?


seems it'd be easier to just build chords with tertian harmony (stacking in thirds). can't go wrong there. but what you said isn't really wrong, so i can't argue.

Quote by fenderstrat730
if i hit the nail on the head right there, then i have one thing i still cant wrap my head around, and that is how to not have a tonal center


there are ways. atonal music is interesting, but can be difficult to grasp. you can also have music where the tonal center is ambiguous - i.e. more than one possible tonal center, and it is unclear as to which it really is. worry about tonal music first, though. then modal and atonal if you're really interested.
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Last edited by AeolianWolf at Jun 14, 2010,
#18
appreciate all the effort Awolf, but i'll completely solidify my understanding of tonal music first before i try to pilot this jet again
#19
I doubt I can explain it any better but...

Take a C major scale. Play The chords C, F, G, C. It resolves to C, right? In order to make it modal, we have to keep the notes of C major but make it resolve somewhere besides C. The easiest way to change where it resolves (ie: tonal center) is to play only the note/chord that we want it to resolve to. So play an F chord a couple of times (or get a backing track that only plays F) and then play the notes of C major over it. Although you're playing with the same notes as in C major, it should sound resolved when you end on F in stead of C. The static F in the background helps to keep it centered around F so it sounds the most resolved on that note/chord. This would be playing in F Lydian.
It also might be helpful to check out some music that uses modes too.
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#20
Quote by fenderstrat730
appreciate all the effort Awolf, but i'll completely solidify my understanding of tonal music first before i try to pilot this jet again


honestly, you're better off. i tell you, you're going to come back in 6-8 months (maybe up to a year or as few as 2-4 months depending on your learning style), look at modes, and wonder how the hell they ever confused you. you're going to come back and kick your own ass for not understanding them properly -- that's pretty much what i did.

good luck, my friend. if you're serious in your approach, absolutely nothing in theory is difficult.
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