Poll: Universal Health Care? (A guage of political leanings)
Poll Options
View poll results: Universal Health Care? (A guage of political leanings)
Absolutely! Obama-care is too little, too late.
24 38%
Needs to be done. Good work US on passing the reform!
20 32%
Don't care.
5 8%
Too much intrusion on our rights.
6 10%
It is another step towards Socialism. Scary.
8 13%
Voters: 63.
Page 1 of 7
#1
I have been thinking about the metal culture a lot as I have been introducing folks at work to metal, and they have pointed out some interesting things I never really considered, first:

If you look at metal and the gay movement, it is there under the surface, but is very closeted and seldom is anyone comfortable with talking about it.

Certain figures, like Freddie Mercury, have definitely contributed to metal, but while the gay community considers him an iconic torch-bearer in popular music, the metal community seems to ignore his orientation for whatever reason. If you mention the man, or Queen, I believe most metallers will agree they had a positive impact on later bands, like Iron Maiden, and even today's bands, most especially Cradle of Filth or Dimmu Borgir or any bands that incorporate clean vocals and complex arrangements into the metal.

And let's face it, even stripped-down, hard core black metal bands are stereotypically in corpse paint and dark costuming.

When Judas Priest's frontman Rob Halford came out several years ago it pretty much fell off the radar. Fact is, he's gay. And the dom-biker, leather and chains image of the old school metal scene is in fact related to the black leather and chains of the harder-edged gay scene. In rougher days when gays had to deal with being beaten or killed by marauding rednecks, they banded together and got tough - "don't f*** with us!" basically.

That image got stripped down and emasculated, and the black leather jacket, blue jeans appearance was born.

BTW, James Dean was also quite gay.

Another example; American Conservatism and the Big Four -

American Conservatism is marked by Christianity, a distrust of Big Government, a push for State's Right, Gun Ownership, Hunting, Pro-Life and so on.

Metallica, for example, has an overall positive message and nothing in their music is really a problem for Christians. In fact, they used Bible stories early on in tracks like the Four Horsemen and Creeping Death.

Hetfield loves his guns, as exemplified in "Don't Tread on Me" and "Of Wolf and Man," both on the self-titled record. Distrust of government resembling today's "Tea Party" movement is apparent throughout "...And Justice for All." Such distrust of authority is born out in every album, especially this most controversial, "love it or hate it" 1988 release.

Dave Mustaine is an Evangelical and many of his songs reflect these values. He is also extremely intelligent, though, so his words are artfully devoid of direct "Come to Jesus now!" references. Instead, he focuses on Pro-Life themes in "Youthanasia" and speaks out against drug use (rather hypocritically) in "Use the Man."

Finally, Slayer of all bands also reflects this sort of attitude, although their conservatism could probably be boiled down to more of a Libertarian bent. They have a very definite "think for yourself and do what you want as long as it doesn't hurt anybody" attitude.

I would guess they would be all for Marijuana Legalization, but fall quite firmly into the Pro-Life category. Very Rush Limbaugh!

If you need some proof, "Silent Scream" is probably the most obvious conservative piece that comes to mind. Also "Raining Blood" speaks of apocalyptic times, a common believe of Evangelicals.

Discuss...I'm a little vaclempt..
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#2
horrible thread

Quote by Stranglehold
He swallowed black nail polish and shat the word 'motherfucker' onto a non-metal kid. Rad.

Quote by severed-metal
You can dress a woman slutty, but she's not a slut. Understand?

living inside a drop only to die in an ocean
#3
Ridiculous thread.

also, (real, not USSR etc) Socialism is the general goal of society imo.

"The mind is its own place, and in itself

Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n"

- John Milton, Paradise Lost
#5
Quote by rg_metal
horrible thread

Why?

Did you even read it?
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#7
That's why it's a horrible thread. If you just asked us what our opinions were on politics, and perhaps the poll was where are you on the political scale: Left, Centre, Right or Nowhere it would have been a lot better.

Plus, you seem to think that all metal bands are either gay or fascist.


EDIT: also, if I'm understanding your point of looking hard to avoid being killed for being gay, Gaahl is a better example

"The mind is its own place, and in itself

Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n"

- John Milton, Paradise Lost
Last edited by metallicafan616 at Jun 14, 2010,
#9
freddie mercury and metal? i mean most places ive been if you mention queen the metal head is like "what a ****** ****i qqueen RIP dime" and how can you say slayer has good values they have nazi tattooos all over themselves and have more than once expressed their hatred of gays. stop trying to concieve metal as a big political and life movement and leave it as a genre of music.
Gibson Grand Concert Acoustic
roland AC90

I mean this one time I was jacking it pertty hard and was making noises and what not

You, my friend, are a genius!
#12
why don't someone move this abomination to the pit anyways... politics are for the weak

Quote by Stranglehold
He swallowed black nail polish and shat the word 'motherfucker' onto a non-metal kid. Rad.

Quote by severed-metal
You can dress a woman slutty, but she's not a slut. Understand?

living inside a drop only to die in an ocean
#13
I say


show your pubes to the public. Triumph over society.

A new world order of pubonic republic.
Cette nuit j'ai rêvé que je mâchais ses yeux
Après avoir crevé par accès de furie
Ta replète panse d'helminthes blancs nourrie,
Trop prompte à déféquer le fruit d'un vit sanieux.
#14
I don't understand what you're trying to say. First you make the connection between metal and the gay community. and then you connect it to the Christian Right, pretty much polar opposites.

What is your point?
#15
Quote by Skagasm
stop trying to concieve metal as a big political and life movement and leave it as a genre of music.


+1.

Music for music's sake.
#16
Quote by Skagasm
freddie mercury and metal? i mean most places ive been if you mention queen the metal head is like "what a ****** ****i qqueen RIP dime" and how can you say slayer has good values they have nazi tattooos all over themselves and have more than once expressed their hatred of gays. stop trying to concieve metal as a big political and life movement and leave it as a genre of music.

I have this little problem...

I use the greyish-white lump of tissue between my ears from time to time. Sorry to offend!

So what are my aims? Nothing specific, just a little bit of self-examination and reflection about your identity.

As much as I like metal, I am perturbed by the fact that metallers are so often stuck-up, ignorant non-thinkers who don't even realize how gay they look.

Yes, to others you look gay. (Assuming you wear tight blue jeans and a black leather jacket.)

I didn't make it up.

I also didn't make up the fact that the very bands that were assailed by the Reaganites during the 1980's have become increasingly Reagan-friendly in their lyrics and public statements.

It's just a strange and complex phenomenon that I find interesting. It's a culture that I have been a part of and it fascinates me.

Excuse me for being educated and actually thinking about things. You should try it some time.
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#17
being educated and talking shIt are two different things

Quote by Stranglehold
He swallowed black nail polish and shat the word 'motherfucker' onto a non-metal kid. Rad.

Quote by severed-metal
You can dress a woman slutty, but she's not a slut. Understand?

living inside a drop only to die in an ocean
#18
and making this thread is far from educated imo... in my educated opinion

Quote by Stranglehold
He swallowed black nail polish and shat the word 'motherfucker' onto a non-metal kid. Rad.

Quote by severed-metal
You can dress a woman slutty, but she's not a slut. Understand?

living inside a drop only to die in an ocean
#19
Quote by multipleofone
I don't understand what you're trying to say. First you make the connection between metal and the gay community. and then you connect it to the Christian Right, pretty much polar opposites.

What is your point?

DING DING DING DING!!!

We have a winner.

The point is we have a genre of music with opposing viewpoints and influences that are sometimes badly mashed together in an attempt at reconciliation.

We try to force on these bands and these artists, upon our own history and ultimately ourselves, some unrealistic definition of what it is to be "Metal" and what "Metal" means.

Some metal is violently anti-gay. Some metal is fabulously gay. Some metal is racist, some metal rages against bigotry (Pantera and Type O Negative, for example.)

"Oh, but that can't be!"

"You're stupid, this thread sucks!"

You all don't want to talk about this stuff because it makes you uncomfortable.

My point is being proven very well.
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#20
So what you're trying to say is that Metal doesn't have a coherent social commentary?

No shit.
Dyer's Eve is awesome, and has an abnormally large penis, which doesn't act as any hinderance to his everyday life despite its freakishly large size.
For unrivaled obedience, user King_ofKumbucha is awarded this spot of honor.
#21
And the poll is a bit of research.

I have posted it because I don't know what UG metallers think, and I have picked a question that divides people into political factions relatively accurately. Unlike abortion or gun rights, where Conservatives or Liberals can have surprisingly strong and unexpected beliefs, government control of health care is very fundamental to their differences.
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#22
Quote by Bubonic Chronic
DING DING DING DING!!!

We have a winner.

The point is we have a genre of music with opposing viewpoints and influences that are sometimes badly mashed together in an attempt at reconciliation.

We try to force on these bands and these artists, upon our own history and ultimately ourselves, some unrealistic definition of what it is to be "Metal" and what "Metal" means.

Some metal is violently anti-gay. Some metal is fabulously gay. Some metal is racist, some metal rages against bigotry (Pantera and Type O Negative, for example.)

"Oh, but that can't be!"

"You're stupid, this thread sucks!"

You all don't want to talk about this stuff because it makes you uncomfortable.

My point is being proven very well.


Can't help but agree.

Metalheads are very passionate about their music, and go apeshit when someone tries to question it. I like to think of myself as a more open minded metalhead, which is why i find this thread interesting.
Most of my grindcore inspiration comes from my hard drive.
#23
Quote by Bubonic Chronic
My point is being proven very well.

You're point isn't a point at all. People are different... Yes, we are aware. The fact that Halford is Gay (for example) doesn't make Judas Priest - or metal - gay (or straight for that matter). Music does not have an orientation, nor does it have a political position. People may, but music is only a construct. People superimpose meanings over music, but the second the meaning becomes more important than the music everything goes downhill.

As for clothes: all about the white t's and regular jeans (neither tight nor baggy), or shirt and tie. Tight jeans are women's clothing, and good leather is expensive (especially when it is more tasteful than your standard 80's biker jacket).
Last edited by jfreyvogel at Jun 14, 2010,
#24
I read it, but I'm not really the best person to discuss these kinds of things. It was interesting, though.
#25
Quote by metallicafan616
Ridiculous thread.

also, (real, not USSR etc) Socialism is the general goal of society imo.


Psh, I want to go back to 1800 where I can be like Mr Darcy. That's true progress.
Quote by DrewsGotTheLife
yea man, who ever doesnt like pantera or think they suck doesnt like metal, end of discussion, they changed the freakin world n made history, so don't be sayin they suck, have respect, same goes for machine head n lamb of god cuz their good too
#26
Quote by kennykenny
Can't help but agree.

Metalheads are very passionate about their music, and go apeshit when someone tries to question it. I like to think of myself as a more open minded metalhead, which is why i find this thread interesting.

This thread isn't interesting, this thread is obvious to anybody with half a brain.

Music fans, ANY music fans, are generally idiots. There is a percieved state of mind and lifestyle to every sort of music, to any of which the grand majority of the respective style will attempt to adhere.

Metal is no different, and the fans are just as stupid and closeminded as any other music fan.
Dyer's Eve is awesome, and has an abnormally large penis, which doesn't act as any hinderance to his everyday life despite its freakishly large size.
For unrivaled obedience, user King_ofKumbucha is awarded this spot of honor.
#27
Quote by dead-fish
So what you're trying to say is that Metal doesn't have a coherent social commentary?

No shit.

I'm not trying to say anything, simply get a discussion started.

Think I'm wrong? Then make a counter-point.

I'm not so immature as to balk at someone's disagreement.

"OMG, you disagree with me!!!"

Actually I am interested in what others have to say, so say something relevant or kindly stfu.

Another point of discussion in terms of metal philosophy: Anti-Christian music versus Pagan or Folk metal.

Two bands: Deicide and Ensiferum.

Deicide, to me, is a rather silly protest against Christianity. It's shock-rock. They simply say stuff that they hope will make the prevailing group (Christians) angry.

Ensiferum, on the other hand, uses musical ideas and lyrical themes from their ancient culture to create unique music that simply happens not to be Christian.

Why the difference? Time.

I think Deicide and the like, even Slayer in the early days or Venom, had to push the envelope of what was acceptable. Though the "Hail Satan!" music is quite silly now, it was probably necessary to both inspire and create a market for more developed music later on.

So much music now is about holding on to cultures that had been threatened by the invaders (the Roman Catholics.) Like Native Americans, they are now fighting back by writing songs and perpetuating what is truly unique about them.

I think it's awesome.


(BTW, we could talk about any of this stuff. I don't really care, it's just more interesting to me than A7X sux!!!)
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#28
Quote by jfreyvogel
You're point isn't a point at all. People are different... Yes, we are aware. The fact that Halford is Gay (for example) doesn't make Judas Priest - or metal - gay (or straight for that matter). Music does not have an orientation, nor does it have a political position. People may, but music is only a construct. People superimpose meanings over music, but the second the meaning becomes more important than the music everything goes downhill.

As for clothes: all about the white t's and regular jeans (neither tight nor baggy), or shirt and tie. Tight jeans are women's clothing, and good leather is expensive (especially when it is more tasteful than your standard 80's biker jacket).

I agree.

No population or music or culture has an orientation or political position or any of it. But looking at metallers as a population is like looking at White, Middle Class women who send their kids to private schools, or Latinos with post-Bachelor's education, or any selective group.

You can't pin them down to anything, but trends can be explored.
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#29
Quote by guitarist41
+1.

Music for music's sake.


no.

This is completely wrong.

Metal is not just another genre of music for "entertainment." Metal is more than that, and that's what makes it so special.

I'm busy right now, so I'll just save some time and writing space by just saying that you're wrong, and if you disagree with me, then you're an ignorant asshole.
#30
Quote by Bubonic Chronic
I'm not trying to say anything, simply get a discussion started.

Think I'm wrong? Then make a counter-point.

I'm not so immature as to balk at someone's disagreement.

"OMG, you disagree with me!!!"

Actually I am interested in what others have to say, so say something relevant or kindly stfu.

What is there to discuss? You're not saying anything. You made this thread, said "look, sometimes metal is like this, and sometimes it's like this, and sometimes it's completely different, and sometimes it isn't". You couldn't be more ambiguous if you tried, really.

I can't agree with you, nor disagree with you, because there's nothing to agree on.
Dyer's Eve is awesome, and has an abnormally large penis, which doesn't act as any hinderance to his everyday life despite its freakishly large size.
For unrivaled obedience, user King_ofKumbucha is awarded this spot of honor.
#31
Quote by dead-fish
What is there to discuss? You're not saying anything. You made this thread, said "look, sometimes metal is like this, and sometimes it's like this, and sometimes it's completely different, and sometimes it isn't". You couldn't be more ambiguous if you tried, really.

I can't agree with you, nor disagree with you, because there's nothing to agree on.

I made two very clear points:

1) The underground culture of the 50's, 60's and 70's, including gay culture, influenced everything we experience today in the underground.

One thing I fault metal for is denying some of these influences based on ignorance.

Punk is similarly influenced by counter-culture, but there are bands who are openly, even obscenely gay in the punk scene. There are also skinhead bands who will talk about committing violence against them.

The difference is that no punk, whether gay, straight, black, white, skinhead or whatever, will deny the existence or reject outright the other elements. It is a more open culture, a more honest one.

I wish metal were more of an open, honest culture.


2) Christianity and Reagan-era conservative ideals are more prevalent in metal than we think. In fact, the American metal scene is probably the most conservative music scene I can think of outside of Disney, which isn't really a music scene.

It's very "we want our guns, damnit!" and "abortion is wrong!" and "we don't trust the government!"

You could rewrite a Sarah Palin speech into a thrash album if you wanted to. No one would probably notice.
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#32
Quote by Bubonic Chronic
I have this little problem...

I use the greyish-white lump of tissue between my ears from time to time. Sorry to offend!

So what are my aims? Nothing specific, just a little bit of self-examination and reflection about your identity.

As much as I like metal, I am perturbed by the fact that metallers are so often stuck-up, ignorant non-thinkers who don't even realize how gay they look.

Yes, to others you look gay. (Assuming you wear tight blue jeans and a black leather jacket.)

I didn't make it up.

I also didn't make up the fact that the very bands that were assailed by the Reaganites during the 1980's have become increasingly Reagan-friendly in their lyrics and public statements.

It's just a strange and complex phenomenon that I find interesting. It's a culture that I have been a part of and it fascinates me.

Excuse me for being educated and actually thinking about things. You should try it some time.


lol read my name retard, im not metal at all. and your being the idiot to accuse me of being an idiot when your the one connecting a genre of music made in a garage to the united states government. wow you just lost all of your credibility when you got a butthurt and insulted me for no reason. GOOD JOB hey come to the pit anytime, we'd love to have you around
Gibson Grand Concert Acoustic
roland AC90

I mean this one time I was jacking it pertty hard and was making noises and what not

You, my friend, are a genius!
Last edited by Skagasm at Jun 14, 2010,
#33
Quote by Skagasm
your kinda of an idiot


Carry on....

I happen to like my seat on the sidelines.
I've found Jesus
#34
Quote by Bubonic Chronic
2) Christianity and Reagan-era conservative ideals are more prevalent in metal than we think. In fact, the American metal scene is probably the most conservative music scene I can think of outside of Disney, which isn't really a music scene.

It's very "we want our guns, damnit!" and "abortion is wrong!" and "we don't trust the government!"

Perhaps in the mainstream? To be honest I have seen very little of this (read as relatively), and I pride myself on the vast spectrum of music I listen to.
#35
Quote by Skagasm
lol read my name retard, im not metal at all. and your kinda of an idiot to accuse me of being an idiot when your the one connecting a genre of music made in a garage to the united states government. wow you just lost all of your credibility when you got a butthurt and insulted me for no reason. GOOD JOB hey come to the pit anytime, we'd love to have you around

And you're the one threatening people via text in an internet forum.

I'm on here because there's a flash flood, so I can't get my car off the hill I live on top of until the water level drops a little. So I'm killing time.

What's your excuse?
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#36
Quote by Bubonic Chronic
And you're the one threatening people via text in an internet forum.

I'm on here because there's a flash flood, so I can't get my car off the hill I live on top of until the water level drops a little. So I'm killing time.

What's your excuse?


where did i threaten anyone? and i dont have plans til 3 so im just killing time as well
Gibson Grand Concert Acoustic
roland AC90

I mean this one time I was jacking it pertty hard and was making noises and what not

You, my friend, are a genius!
#37
Quote by Bubonic Chronic
I made two very clear points:

1) The underground culture of the 50's, 60's and 70's, including gay culture, influenced everything we experience today in the underground.

One thing I fault metal for is denying some of these influences based on ignorance.

Punk is similarly influenced by counter-culture, but there are bands who are openly, even obscenely gay in the punk scene. There are also skinhead bands who will talk about committing violence against them.

The difference is that no punk, whether gay, straight, black, white, skinhead or whatever, will deny the existence or reject outright the other elements. It is a more open culture, a more honest one.

I wish metal were more of an open, honest culture.

Lots of bands pay homage to early metal roots. They leave out what's irrelevant though, as does punk, for that matter.

When image is just that, image, then it shouldn't get any mention or homage, and it rarely does. halford adopting the spikes and leather look from the gay community is irrelevant. In the same sense, you think the Sex Pistols were the first to dress that way?
However, once it became a recognized style of clothing in a certain music scene, then it gets paid homage, and in both cases, this happens.
2) Christianity and Reagan-era conservative ideals are more prevalent in metal than we think. In fact, the American metal scene is probably the most conservative music scene I can think of outside of Disney, which isn't really a music scene.

It's very "we want our guns, damnit!" and "abortion is wrong!" and "we don't trust the government!"

You could rewrite a Sarah Palin speech into a thrash album if you wanted to. No one would probably notice.

So does communism, nazism, buddhaism, paganism, fundamental christianity, and pretty much any kind of any sort of any style of world POV, and with every single one of those approaches, there are just as many artists that admit to support them as there are artists that don't realize they do, up to artists that are fighting fire with fire, and will deny supporting said approaches.
Dyer's Eve is awesome, and has an abnormally large penis, which doesn't act as any hinderance to his everyday life despite its freakishly large size.
For unrivaled obedience, user King_ofKumbucha is awarded this spot of honor.
#38
Quote by jfreyvogel
Perhaps in the mainstream? To be honest I have seen very little of this (read as relatively), and I pride myself on the vast spectrum of music I listen to.

Depends on the genre.

If you look at the major thrash bands that's definitely thematic for them. Each scene, each branch of the metal genre has different trends that go along with it.

As I mentioned earlier, the "Hail Satan" bands probably don't believe anything (or much of anything) other than, "we are metal and we want attention!"

Bands of the Viking Metal and Folk Metal categories have a more developed purpose for being. They are proud of who they are as people and create music with the intention of preserving their history, even their language.

Metal is evolving, and I guess that's what I'd like to see: more fans understanding that metal has a past, a present, and is currently changing towards a future.

As a metal head, I used to be very resistant to the idea that my PRECIOUS METAL

...could be influenced by the likes of Jazz or Blues. Or that androgeny is inherently present in a lot of the bands I listen to.

Androgeny, like worshipping Satan, is a way of drawing attention and being counter-culture. Boy George made a lot of money doing it. So did Twisted Sister.

BUT DRESSING IN DRAG IS NOT METAL!!

...point is, growing as a person, as a culture, and allowing the music to grow and thrive will require us to accept (and not necessarily like) the different elements of it. I want to look at it, talk about it.

I no longer fit the profile of what a metal fan is "supposed" to be. I have short(er) hair, don't wear the "coolest" or "darkest" metal shirts ever.

I listen to Bluegrass and Country, I even listen to Tori Amos and Fiona Apple (she's hot, by the way...)



Being a broader-minded, more complex, more aware and comfortable person has allowed me to enjoy the music more. It also allows me to think critically about the music and enjoy it on a deeper level.

Those who say a certain band is "GAY!!!" just aren't listening, or perhaps they are afraid that they, themselves are gay.

OMFG, what a tragedy that would be!!!
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#39
Quote by Hoffinator
no.

This is completely wrong.

Metal is not just another genre of music for "entertainment." Metal is more than that, and that's what makes it so special.

I'm busy right now, so I'll just save some time and writing space by just saying that you're wrong, and if you disagree with me, then you're an ignorant asshole.


Tosh.

It is what one makes of it, no more, no less.
Quote by DrewsGotTheLife
yea man, who ever doesnt like pantera or think they suck doesnt like metal, end of discussion, they changed the freakin world n made history, so don't be sayin they suck, have respect, same goes for machine head n lamb of god cuz their good too
#40


It felt appropriate.
Quote by ChemicalFire
The point of underground bands is their not popular or famous most of the time. Thus there is a good chance they suck.