#1
I know in most genres panned guitars sound more open and beefier and i also know that you should double track rhythm parts to beef them up
but if you pan lead guitar left and rhythm right where should you pan the double tracked parts if they should be panned at all
thanks for the help in advance
#2
Lead is panned centre as there is usually only one track for leads (i.e. they are not normally double tracked)
Rhythm guitars are double tracked - one track is panned hard left and the other is panned hard right.
#3
It depends what your defining as lead and rhythm here.

Some people define the second rhythm as a lead because maybe it is doing a harmony or whatever.

I'd define leads as either solos or melodies, and I put either solos or melodies in the center usually (although sometimes if you have two guitars soloing in turn then its best to put them slightly to each side to differentiate)

Heres what I'll normally do:

Rhythm 1 (main guitar line) - 100% Left
Rhythm 2 (complimentary guitar line, double track of the main guitar line or harmonised guitar line) - 100% Right
Lead (solos or chorus melodies, dead centre)
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#4
Meh, it doesn't always have to be Hard Left & Hard Right on the guitars. I typically do about 45% each direction. It gives it a nice balance and a good blend in the middle
Derpy Derp Derp Herp Derp
#5
*Sigh of exasperation*

It clutters the centre of the mix and doesnt make use of the stereo width is what it does.
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#6
Good call lockwolf.

A lot of people will tell you to hard pan a lot of things but you don't always have to. I'd suggest maybe 45% would be a little low, you should be looking at about 65 - 85% I think.

I don't even hard pan left and right overheads. Think about it, you don't just hear things in one ear in the real world so there is little point in making it sound that way on a record.

Anyway hope that helps.

Edit: Sorry forgot to talk about the lead. You'd normally plop a solo in the centre because there are no lead vocals to interfere with. If it's a lead part along with other lead parts then you would certainly pan in it to one side but close to the centre, perhaps between 10 and 25%.
Last edited by piop at Jun 17, 2010,
#7
For 2 rhythm parts I tend to pan to between 9 o'clock and 10 o'clock for the left side and between 3 o'clock and 2 o'clock for the right. That seems to give me a nice full sound. Super hard panning seems to send things off balance if 1 guitar stops playing. IMO. I tend to put leads straight down the middle.
All my guitars are old enough to buy beer, are You?
#8
thanks for the help if im only doing two guitars i tend to do 75% each way
but will pan chorus melodies abit more in the middle
#9
Ah The Stupid It Kills.
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#10
Quote by piop
I don't even hard pan left and right overheads. Think about it, you don't just hear things in one ear in the real world so there is little point in making it sound that way on a record.


You do know that other mics pick up cymbals right? If you pan everything hard left or right, the bleed into other microphones evens it out. The cymbal all the way on the right won't be picked up as much by a tom mic as the one a little to the left of it, but it won't be 100% right. I'm not very good at explaining it, but it makes sense if you think about it.
#11
Quote by sambot12
You do know that other mics pick up cymbals right? If you pan everything hard left or right, the bleed into other microphones evens it out. The cymbal all the way on the right won't be picked up as much by a tom mic as the one a little to the left of it, but it won't be 100% right. I'm not very good at explaining it, but it makes sense if you think about it.


I understand completely what you're saying. But further to my point earlier, hard panning is equivalent to having the instrument right next to your ear (if you've close mic'd). Hard panning the left overhead to the left isn't realistic to me. Do you see what I'm saying?
#12
Quote by Beefmo
Ah The Stupid It Kills.


Ahh, the ignorance kills

Mixing is an artform, not a set of rules. Just cuz I don't pan Hard Left & Hard Right doesn't make it wrong.
Derpy Derp Derp Herp Derp
#13
Quote by piop
I understand completely what you're saying. But further to my point earlier, hard panning is equivalent to having the instrument right next to your ear (if you've close mic'd). Hard panning the left overhead to the left isn't realistic to me. Do you see what I'm saying?


Yeah definitely, but are you saying not to hard pan if you closer mic every cymbal? I agree with that but if you have overheads that are further from the cymbals and pick up everything, I personally would pan hard.
#14
Quote by lockwolf

Mixing is an artform, not a set of rules. Just cuz I don't pan Hard Left & Hard Right doesn't make it wrong.


Yeah, keep on using that "its an artform" bollocks to justify narrow cluttered mixes when everyone else in the professional world will use the full stereo field for guitars.

Its like painting with half a canvas. There's art and then theres just common fúcking sense, and if you ask me, what is lack of common sense but ignorant.

You're obviously content to stay a rank amateur however so I'll leave you be.
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#15
Quote by Beefmo
Yeah, keep on using that "its an artform" bollocks to justify narrow cluttered mixes when everyone else in the professional world will use the full stereo field for guitars.

Its like painting with half a canvas. There's art and then theres just common fúcking sense, and if you ask me, what is lack of common sense but ignorant.

You're obviously content to stay a rank amateur however so I'll leave you be.


You're very arrogant. Stop that. It's not attractive.

Things like a willingness to hard pan are down to personal preference. As I've said, to me, anything that close mic'd or D.I'd feels unrealistic when hard panned. Sambot and myself have had an amiable discussion about the relative benefits of our own viewpoints and the reasons behind them, I don't think it's so hard for you to attempt the same. Especially when you've evidently got your own problems with mixing. (Those vocals on the track on your profile, for example.)
#16
Quote by Beefmo
Yeah, keep on using that "its an artform" bollocks to justify narrow cluttered mixes when everyone else in the professional world will use the full stereo field for guitars.

Its like painting with half a canvas. There's art and then theres just common fúcking sense, and if you ask me, what is lack of common sense but ignorant.

You're obviously content to stay a rank amateur however so I'll leave you be.


You're the one claiming that guitars should always be panned 100%. That's a pretty amateur notion.

Stop being so condescending.
#17
Beefmo; not everyone does everything the same way. For example, I noticed on Senses Fails album Let It Enfold You, they panned the two guitars 100%; if you're using earbuds, you can take one out, and you will be completely missing one of the guitar tracks. It worked for that album, but does that mean everyone should do it exactly that way?
#18
You should use the full stereo field in your mixes, but hard-panning 100% guitars isn't always the best answer. Of course I wouldn't put two identical guitar parts any lower than 60% each direction, it won't sound as good.
Another trick I use is to put a slight reverb on the guitar track but pan the reverb to the opposite side. So guitar 1's reverb is over by guitar 2 and vice-versa.

To OP: Here's what I'm gathering from your post
you have 2 guitar parts, rhythm and lead.
you want to double track each of the parts, have the rhythm in the left, and lead in the right.
What I think you should do is pan the two rhythm tracks 100% left and right, and pan the two lead tracks about 60-80% in each direction. Also, this is Quad-Tracking, and there is a rather large, in-depth thread on here somewhere about it if you use the search bar.
Quote by StraightxXxEdge
Quote by Truespin
you can't use a guitar to replace your lack of charm or social skills.

Worked for Malmsteen.
#19
This may be a bit off-topic, but....

Once my band does record, we plan on paying for studio timing, as well as mixing and mastering and all the et cetera that goes with it.

Once we have everything recorded, will most people at the studios leave the panning up to us, or will they just do what's worked best in their experience, or what they think sounds most professional, unless asked to do differently?
#20
Quote by herby190
This may be a bit off-topic, but....

Once my band does record, we plan on paying for studio timing, as well as mixing and mastering and all the et cetera that goes with it.

Once we have everything recorded, will most people at the studios leave the panning up to us, or will they just do what's worked best in their experience, or what they think sounds most professional, unless asked to do differently?


If you're paying for the mastering, you'll probably just get given a mixed down audio file of the finished track, I don't think they'll leave anything up to you. Unless you ask them to give your input in advance of course.

You're probably better off leaving it up to the guys at the studio though if they're any good... panning is one of those things that can ruin a good mix if it's not done properly.
#21
Herby it really depends on the people doing it. Some will gave you sit in and they will ask you about every little thing they're doing. Some people won't even want you after the tracking.
Quote by StraightxXxEdge
Quote by Truespin
you can't use a guitar to replace your lack of charm or social skills.

Worked for Malmsteen.
#22
Quote by herby190
Beefmo; not everyone does everything the same way. For example, I noticed on Senses Fails album Let It Enfold You, they panned the two guitars 100%; if you're using earbuds, you can take one out, and you will be completely missing one of the guitar tracks. It worked for that album, but does that mean everyone should do it exactly that way?


You noticed that on a profesional album they did it exactly the way I observed it they would, now find a professional album with two rhythm guitars that doesnt have it panned more than 90% left or right.

You're the one claiming that guitars should always be panned 100%. That's a pretty amateur notion. Stop being so condescending.


Is it really? Ask yourself the question, out of all the music I listen to, what isn't hard panned or at least 90%, go double check, then come back.

You're very arrogant. Stop that. It's not attractive. Things like a willingness to hard pan are down to personal preference. As I've said, to me, anything that close mic'd or D.I'd feels unrealistic when hard panned. Sambot and myself have had an amiable discussion about the relative benefits of our own viewpoints and the reasons behind them, I don't think it's so hard for you to attempt the same. Especially when you've evidently got your own problems with mixing. (Those vocals on the track on your profile, for example.)


I'm not here to be attractive, I'm here to offer the most sound and plausible advice, and nah you had a discussion where you were just out to pat each other on the back for your shared viewpoints, amiable in this context only means you traded views and found you shared some badly formed opinions. Sure I don't take any prisoners, I'm not here to be nice, I've unleashed more than a few diatribes on people that just talk complete bollocks, I'm a sardonic, facetious bastard with an overly sharp tongue, I know I'm not perfect but I know whats right and I call it when people have their fingers up their own arse (or someone elses).

Yeah that mix isn't stellar, I'm happy to admit that, must be my sense of arrogance that allows that, things didn't all go my way on that recording and I made a few concessions just to get it finished, its only there to prove that I can back up what I say, you on the other hand are lacking that, mixes please.

And on the vocals? 16 year old, first time in the studio, they were all flat, every single line, I had to coax a performance out him that was less than a total castastrophe and then auto tune every syllable, I asked him to come back and have another go at one point, his reply - nah I'll stick with the autotune.
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#23
Quote by Ziphoblat
If you're paying for the mastering, you'll probably just get given a mixed down audio file of the finished track, I don't think they'll leave anything up to you. Unless you ask them to give your input in advance of course.

You're probably better off leaving it up to the guys at the studio though if they're any good... panning is one of those things that can ruin a good mix if it's not done properly.
This is kind of what I was hoping for.... I mean, it's going to be hell just to afford to get a Demo EP out, we really can't afford to get it ****ed up by bad EQing and panning.
#24
Quote by herby190
This is kind of what I was hoping for.... I mean, it's going to be hell just to afford to get a Demo EP out, we really can't afford to get it ****ed up by bad EQing and panning.


Yeah they'll do that stuff for you. Have a chat with the engineer who's going to mix it though, make sure they really get what the song is about and the sound you were trying to achieve with it. That way they can make informed decisions about all the effects they will use on the track. Best of luck mate.
#25
Quote by Beefmo
You noticed that on a profesional album they did it exactly the way I observed it they would, now find a professional album with two rhythm guitars that doesnt have it panned more than 90% left or right.
Umm... no, not exactly.

Your way:

Rhythm 1: 100% left
Rhythm 2: 100% right
Lead: Near or absolute center

Let It Enfold You:

Rhythm: 100% left
Lead: 100% right

Go check out their song Bite To Break Skin if you still don't get it..... it's a good example, in my opinion.
#26
Quote by herby190
Umm... no, not exactly.

Your way:

Rhythm 1: 100% left
Rhythm 2: 100% right
Lead: Near or absolute center

Let It Enfold You:

Rhythm: 100% left
Lead: 100% right

Go check out their song Bite To Break Skin if you still don't get it..... it's a good example, in my opinion.


Checked it out, good example for discussion actually thanks for bringing it up, the second guitar is quite often rhythm though and the "lead" sections are more examples of counterpoint than distinguished melodies or solo sections, if I had been mixing this track I would have panned exactly the same, having this in the centre would have detracted from the vocal line.

Even if we take something like "AC/DC - Highway To Hell", if you listen to the beginning of that its actually one guitar panned about 90% with a slight reverb on the opposite side (someone mentioned this earlier in the thread it is quite an interesting and musical technique in this instance), but if obeys the fundamental principals of keeping the mix wide and use the space thats there, something that established mixers have been doing since the advent of stereo and one of the reasons why that album still sounds sonically very well produced 30 years on.
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#27
There are no rules in a mix other than "make it sound good"

the beatles had bass guitar and kick coming out from the left speaker on more than one occasion,
plenty of amazing albums have been mixed mono, aka with no panning.
I have heard people pan harmonies symmetrically, asymmetrically and even automated pans that move during the song so it sounds like the guitarist is walking across the stage.


If it sounds good, do it.
#28
The only time I pan one side 100% is for quick intros (pre-verse) or fills where the drums are at rest. It sounds pretty cool and adds some emphasis
#29
Beefmo, I think you've maybe got the wrong end of the stick. Nobody's said always pan all lead guitars straight down the middle. If you read what I put in my first post I said you would pretty much only do that in the instance of a solo with no vocals to contend with. I just don't see your obsession with hard panning and most people in this thread seem to have agreed with me. It's still possible to use the stereo field effectively without hard panning such an important part as a rhythm guitar.
I'm not asking you to agree with me, just accept that different people will mix in different ways for different genres.

Edit: Many, many apologies, OP. We've got soo off track.
#30
Quote by piop
Beefmo, I think you've maybe got the wrong end of the stick. Nobody's said always pan all lead guitars straight down the middle.


I never implied that either, I was simply clarifying my position on what I'd consider to be a "lead" guitar.

I just don't see your obsession with hard panning and most people in this thread seem to have agreed with me. It's still possible to use the stereo field effectively without hard panning such an important part as a rhythm guitar.


I don't see it as an obsession, I just see people saying "Oh I pan my guitars 60%" left and right and think "Oh god, narrow muddled mixes" and want to clarify why this should not be done.

It's like having a house with two rooms and you keep all your belongings in one, I mean, In a sense I guess who am I to tell you what to do with your house but for the love of god if the space is there don't ram everything into one area, it seems to me like a real conservative attitude and well, I don't really get along with real conservative attitudes. If you're panning guitars at 50% then you're only using half the space you have available, the logical assumption should be to use all of it to full effect.

I can name any number of albums that do this and none that don't, Paramore - hard panned guitars, AC/DC - hard panned, DevilDriver - hard panned, Pantera - hard panned. You pretty much have to go back to the days of mono to see the opposite.

My message to all new mixers out there, is; the space is there, make use of it.
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#31
I agree with hard panning. It's a technique I follow most of the time when I'm mixing.

However, panning 100 to the left or 100 to the right all the time is not the definition of hard panning.

If instead of panning everything either 100 left, 100 right, or center, you can pan it say, 70 left, 70 right, and center. It creates the exact same effect as panning 100, the difference being the mix doesn't feel as wide.

Often, panning all the way just feels way too wide. It depends how wide you want your mix to sound. Panning things to different numbers (for example, panning something 100 right then something else 60 right, then something 45 left) usually sounds muddy - but that's not to say that panning has to be used to 100 every time.

Another point to make, if you pan something literally all the way to 100 (at least in a digital system) it's going to make most peoples brains hurt.
#32
Quote by Ziphoblat

Another point to make, if you pan something literally all the way to 100 (at least in a digital system) it's going to make most peoples brains hurt.


For the record this is total bollocks. It's done all the time and absolutely no ones brains hurt

As for the rest, well, leaving it at that, I've presented my case now and someone can make up their mind from that.
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#33
Quote by Beefmo
For the record this is total bollocks. It's done all the time and absolutely no ones brains hurt

As for the rest, well, leaving it at that, I've presented my case now and someone can make up their mind from that.


No, it's not.

If you've spent your entire life listening to digital, it might sound acceptable.

To anybody who has listened to analogue records before, it sounds odd. You still get some bleed on an analogue system into the other speaker, having something coming solely out of one side can sound harsh.
#34
Oh my bad I didnt know the foundation of our discussion was that of a time warp.

I'm sure we should base all our modern production techniques on the vast amounts of limitations in analogue systems.

Yeah, right.
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