#1
No use beating around the bush, will use A Harmonic Minor for example:

1. How do you go about chord progressions in HMin with all those augmented and diminished beasts.

2. How to play in a classical context? What traits methods etc were used

3. Bit of a noob moment, but I use a lot of 7ths in my composing and because the dim/aug vii was annoying me I came up with this:



e|---------4---------
B|---------5---------
G|---------4---------
D|---------6---------
A|---------7---------
E|---------4---------



Yes I'm aware that it is an E major of some sort, but is there a way to force it into sounding like G# lol?
lol guitar
#2
Major V chords are used most of the time in a minor key due to the harmonic minor. So E major in A minor.
#3
I'm not very knowledgeable on this topic, but I can suggest two videos for you to check out:

This one probably will be mostly review for you, but towards the end he has a good suggestion for using it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YDReqX5FVk

This one is another one, and he goes into the chords formed from the scale:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X58x9FB4mtw

Sorry I can't help anymore.
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#4
Harmonic minor isn't really used for chord progressions. It's generally used for chord substitution, the V of a minor key in particular.
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#5
Harmonic minor is used interchangeably with the natural minor scale to give it a leading tone. This is mostly seen in minor songs by making the v chord Major (or extending it, it makes it a Dominant 7th) which has a much stronger pull to the tonic of the piece rather then the minor v. It is not limited to the Major V though. I have seen people use other chords from the harmonic minor, such as the natural diminished 7th (minor7b5). All in all, its mainly for giving the minor key a stronger pull back to the tonic.
Try this, play Amin->Dmin->Emin7->Amin

And then play Amin->Dmin->Emaj (or E7) and hear the difference in the pull to A minor.
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#6
Pretty much what Zinnie said. Harmonic Minor was created because many composers felt that the v-i pull wasn't strong enough in a minor key, so by using a major V chord in a minor key, you have a raised seventh in the key, in your case of A Hmin, it's a G#. If you try to play over an E major chord with an A Minor, the G and G# clash, so that's how Hmin came about. You can also use a half-whole tone scale over the major chord too, starting on the raised seventh in your key. Typically, you see a lot of this in spanish music. I can't really give you an example in classical context, but I do have a video of me improving over A Harmonic Minor if you want to see, I'll send a PM with the link.
#7
1) through practice. if you understand augmented and diminished chords, and you can hear them, you'll know where they want to go -- and, more importantly, when to use them in a composition.

2) that's...a really vague question. it's like asking how music was composed in a minor key. my suggestion to you is analyze some classical pieces in minor keys. listen to them, see if you can't identify a thing or two. if you can read music, get the scores and follow along. that's a particularly efficient method, because you see the notes.

3) in context, possibly - it could be seen as a G#m6. it depends on the rest of the progression.
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#8
Thanks for the fast response.
Basically I've always seen the harmonic minor (and it's modes) to be of a different family to the Major family (Ionian Aeolian etc), most people say they sound exotic hence their use in latin jazz spanish etc.

My problem is that not many of the same rules apply to this 'family' because of the odd harmonization. And I get even more confused when I see a video like the second one rockingamer2 posted ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X58x9FB4mtw ) because he uses chords outside of the scale (like a maj7#5 for the iii).

I'm trying to use these (A HMin)

1 Aminor, Asus4, Asus2
2 Bdim, Bdim7
3 Caug
4 Dmin, Dmin7, Ddim, Ddim7, Dsus2
5 Emaj, E7, Eaug, Esus4
6 Fmaj, Fmaj7, Fmin, Fdim, Fdim7
7 G#dim, G#dim7, G#aug

What are some Classical pieces in Harmonic Minor I should study/listen to?

EDIT: oops, I'm a douche, Maj7#5 is in key and I meant modes of Major.
lol guitar
Last edited by Serpentarius at Jun 23, 2010,
#9
Quote by Serpentarius
What are some Classical pieces in Harmonic Minor I should study/listen to?


Almost anything in classical music that is in minor utilizes the Harmonic Minor scale. However, its mainly used for the major V, like we've said. I can't think of a piece that uses harmonic minor completely *using the chords harmonized from the harmonic minor scale*
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#10
Quote by DaddyTwoFoot
Harmonic minor isn't really used for chord progressions. It's generally used for chord substitution, the V of a minor key in particular.


Harmonic minor and both forms of the melodic are used alot for chord progressions.

Quote by Zinnie
Almost anything in classical music that is in minor utilizes the Harmonic Minor scale. However, its mainly used for the major V, like we've said. I can't think of a piece that uses harmonic minor completely *using the chords harmonized from the harmonic minor scale*



Harmonic minor is also the basis for minor key analysis.

In harmonic minor you have the major chord V, and the diminished 7th on chord viio.

And in the melodic you have the minor chord ii, major chord IV, half diminished on #vio and diminished 7th again on viio.
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Jun 18, 2010,
#11
Quote by griffRG7321
And in the melodic you have the minor chord ii, major chord IV, half diminished on #vio and diminished 7th again on viio.


you have a half-diminished on viiº in melodic minor. it's strange - i think i made the opposite mistake recently. i'm pretty sure i posted that there was a viº7 and a viim7b5. wolflen caught it, and i corrected myself.

either way, they're both half-diminished.
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#15
Quote by Serpentarius
No use beating around the bush, will use A Harmonic Minor for example:

e|---------4---------
B|---------5---------
G|---------4---------
D|---------6---------
A|---------7---------
E|---------4---------


That's an E/G# (An E major chord with G as bass.) It can also be a G#m6.
ERROR 0x45: Signature not found
#16
Quote by Serpentarius
Thanks for the fast response.
Basically I've always seen the harmonic minor (and it's modes) to be of a different family to the Major family (Ionian Aeolian etc), most people say they sound exotic hence their use in latin jazz spanish etc.

My problem is that not many of the same rules apply to this 'family' because of the odd harmonization. And I get even more confused when I see a video like the second one rockingamer2 posted ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X58x9FB4mtw ) because he uses chords outside of the scale (like a maj7#5 for the iii).

I'm trying to use these (A HMin)

1 Aminor, Asus4, Asus2
2 Bdim, Bdim7
3 Caug
4 Dmin, Dmin7, Ddim, Ddim7, Dsus2
5 Emaj, E7, Eaug, Esus4
6 Fmaj, Fmaj7, Fmin, Fdim, Fdim7
7 G#dim, G#dim7, G#aug

What are some Classical pieces in Harmonic Minor I should study/listen to?
1) Harmonic minor is not a key, it's a scale. Harmonic minor can never be a key. It can be used in a modal context as a mode, but that's a different story (and it does have "relative modes" of its own but that's also a different story).

2) (regarding the first paragraph): If you're talking in terms of modes (in the sense that "___ is a mode of ___," then you're right, because the harmonic minor and the major scale use different intervals. But I think there's something you're misunderstanding. The modes of the major scale are not all "part of the major family." Only a few are. Ionian, lydian, and mixolydian are major modes/scales, whereas aeolian, phrygian, and dorian are minor modes/scales (and locrian is a diminished mode/scale). They are classified by the quality (major/minor/diminished/augmented) of their tonic triad. By this classification (which is rather standard), the harmonic minor fits in the minor "family" (as does the melodic minor).

3) Most music uses chords/notes that are outside of the "parent" scale. If you write a song in a minor key, but use the V derived from the harmonic minor scale, although many consider this alteration diatonic (in other words, it's so common that it's not even considered "out of key"), it uses an accidental because it alters the b7 to a natural 7.

4) The reason the harmonic minor scale sounds "exotic" is because of the intervals it contains. It alters the natural minor scale by raising the 7th degree (from b7 to natural 7), thus creating an augmented second (from b6 to 7 versus the major second from b6 to b7), which gives it a bit of that exotic feel.

I think that's about it.
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#17
good to see you again, food. i was wondering what happened to you.
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#18
Quote by AeolianWolf
good to see you again, food. i was wondering what happened to you.
Good to be back I was at camp, just got back today.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
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#19
Probably shouldn't have said Major family I meant the standard modal family (Ion,Dor,Phr,Lyd,Mix,Aeo,Loc).

I've been using the modes of harm minor for a while now; phrygian dominant, 2nd mode and 4th mode, but being in the context of metal I've been playing them with Distorted power chords/Inverts.

Am I to understand that almost no one uses chords harmonized from the Hmin exclusively?
What chords should I use?

I think my biggest mistake has been following the 'key' like dogma, without realising that some of the best composers use accidentals and 'out of key' notes.
lol guitar
#20
Yeah you're starting to understand it a bit better now I think.

Quote by Serpentarius
Probably shouldn't have said Major family I meant the standard modal family (Ion,Dor,Phr,Lyd,Mix,Aeo,Loc).
Correct. The "modes of the major scale" would be the most correct way to describe that.

Quote by Serpentarius
I've been using the modes of harm minor for a while now; phrygian dominant, 2nd mode and 4th mode, but being in the context of metal I've been playing them with Distorted power chords/Inverts.
Do you know if you have been using them correctly though? I don't mean to be skeptical I'm just trying to find out how well you know about this stuff.

Quote by Serpentarius
Am I to understand that almost no one uses chords harmonized from the Hmin exclusively?
I wouldn't say "almost no one," but I don't know if I could name a song that harmonizes exclusively the harmonic minor scale. The best way to go about this in composition is to base your progression off of the diatonic chords derived from the natural minor scale, then using chords derived from the harmonic minor scale (such as the common V) as substitutions.

Quote by Serpentarius
What chords should I use?
It depends on what you're going for. Like I said, I would stick to harmonizing mainly the natural minor scale then borrowing chords from the harmonic minor as desired, but it really depends on what you're going for. If you're speaking in terms of composition, I'd experiment with a few different methods if I were you. And remember, composition should be based off of what sounds good to you the artist, not off of solely what theory says is conventional or unconventional; dissonant or consonant; and so on.

Quote by Serpentarius
I think my biggest mistake has been following the 'key' like dogma, without realising that some of the best composers use accidentals and 'out of key' notes.
This is an integral realization you have just made. Music doesn't have to (and often shouldn't, in my opinion) adhere strictly to specific scales. You should have freedom in your composition/improvisation to use chromaticism. It's a wonderful thing.
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#21
If youre stuck for ideas, learn from the greats, Mozart and Beethoven used that sharpened 7th very well, and the main context is in the dominant chord.

For example, in C minor, you have a b natural, and the was this is most commonly used is in the dom7 chord of G, which leads neatly to the tonic, C, in a perfect (V-I) cadence.

Another use is in diminished chords (four notes, 3 semitones apart, sounds 'odd' when used inexpertly). Again, in C minor, your diminished chord could be the notes D F Ab B, which creates massive tension and non-resolution, dying to be followed by the dom7 chord, and finally, which great gusto, the tonic of Cmin.

Pardon my exitement, but it really is great when put to good use, check out beethovens 'pathetique' sonata for piano, especially the first movement, in C minor, and listen for the perftect cadences and diminished chords:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weEYNgeHyDA
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#22
Not much of a staff buff myself, but if I were to look for harmonic minor examples in classical sheet music would I see accidentals (#) on the sevenths/MajV where harmonic minor occurs or is there some other notation I should know about?

I'm understanding the use of MajV but can someone please elaborate on the Dim7?
It just seems like a strange choice of crossover compared to less dissonant Chords that would work.
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#23
Thought I'd bump this cause I was just kinda messing around and stumbled into the harmonic minor without trying to but I recognized it after thinking for a second. Yay! I'm proud of me.
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.