#1
I noticed that modes (at least the major ones) are just using other major scales in a key?

For example...in D Major:
Dorian = C Major
Ionian = D Major
Phrygian = Bb Major
Lydian = A major
Mixolydian = G major
Aeolian = F major
Locrian = Eb major

Does that mean I can play those scales over a D major track and get that certain sound? Like, I play Bb Major over a D major track and It'll sound phrygian?

I always thought modes were something more, like strange alterations of the scale that changed it into something completely different. But looking at charts I figured this. Am I wrong?
Quote by AlanHB
As for the guitarist being a wanker - he's a guitarist. Get used to it.
#2
No. In fact, you didn't even come up with the correct relative modes...
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
#3
Quote by hockeyplayer168
No. In fact, you didn't even come up with the correct relative modes...


I used this website and looked at the fretboard. I see the keys clear as day there, I'm not sure if it's some sort of stupid mistake on my part.

http://jguitar.com/scale?root=D&scale=Locrian&fret=0&labels=none&notes=sharps
Quote by AlanHB
As for the guitarist being a wanker - he's a guitarist. Get used to it.
Last edited by itstheman at Jun 18, 2010,
#5
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Yes. You are wrong.

Don't worry about modes. Stick with tonality and the Major/Minor keys for now.


I have for quite some time.

Where am I off here? those charts clearly show (to me) the major key notes.
Quote by AlanHB
As for the guitarist being a wanker - he's a guitarist. Get used to it.
Last edited by itstheman at Jun 18, 2010,
#6
Quote by itstheman
I have for quite some time.

Where am I off here? those charts clearly show (to my brain) the major key notes.

You are off in what the modes are. If you understand tonality, then you'd have no problem with this.

I recommend the Modes Sticky up top here.
#7
Quote by hockeyplayer168
No. In fact, you didn't even come up with the correct relative modes...


Why do you post if you have no idea what he's talking about?

To the TS, yeah you are right , if you started all those scales from D you'd be able to properly tell the differences of all the modes. The problem is, even though that would be amazing if it were easy to do, it's hard if you don't know what you are doing because you'll be clashing everywhere.

But yeah, if you see a Dmaj chord, as long as you'd control it you could play D Ionian, Lydian, or Mixolydian (depends). And you'd be going for the flavor of the mode.

You'll complicate yourself if you focus too much on scales, just realize that difference between those 3 modes is one interval, so instead of thinking modally in a regular song, just stick to the key and play that interval as an accidental. In a modal setting, like a one chord vamp you could do it really well though. Check out the Little Sunflower track in my profile, it's Dmin7, Ebmaj7, Dmaj7. You can really tell the influence and difference of sound the modes give each segment.

Your perspective on modes is the right approach though, playing all of them from the root will help you discern all the qualities even a single interval could give.
#8
Quote by Pillo114
Why do you post if you have no idea what he's talking about?

Hey, guess what! Kiss my ass.
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
#9
Quote by Pillo114
Why do you post if you have no idea what he's talking about?

To the TS, yeah you are right , if you started all those scales from D you'd be able to properly tell the differences of all the modes. The problem is, even though that would be amazing if it were easy to do, it's hard if you don't know what you are doing because you'll be clashing everywhere.

But yeah, if you see a Dmaj chord, as long as you'd control it you could play D Ionian, Lydian, or Mixolydian (depends). And you'd be going for the flavor of the mode.

You'll complicate yourself if you focus too much on scales, just realize that difference between those 3 modes is one interval, so instead of thinking modally in a regular song, just stick to the key and play that interval as an accidental. In a modal setting, like a one chord vamp you could do it really well though. Check out the Little Sunflower track in my profile, it's Dmin7, Ebmaj7, Dmaj7. You can really tell the influence and difference of sound the modes give each segment.

Your perspective on modes is the right approach though, playing all of them from the root will help you discern all the qualities even a single interval could give.


Thanks very much for this.

I usually just stick to one key and play accidentals...I hear phrases in my head and play them when I play to tracks, but I'd like to have a better understanding of exactly what I'm doing.

What I don't understand is how everyone else is disagreeing completely, and you're saying I'm in the right direction.

If I'm playing within the scale of Bb major, but focusing on the flavor notes of D phyrgian, that is playing D phrygian then, no?
Quote by AlanHB
As for the guitarist being a wanker - he's a guitarist. Get used to it.
#10
Quote by itstheman
I noticed that modes (at least the major ones) are just using other major scales in a key?

For example...in D Major:
Dorian = C Major
Ionian = D Major
Phrygian = Bb Major
Lydian = A major
Mixolydian = G major
Aeolian = F major
Locrian = Eb major

Does that mean I can play those scales over a D major track and get that certain sound? Like, I play Bb Major over a D major track and It'll sound phrygian?
No. If you play D phrygian over a D phrygian track it'll sound phrygian. Playing Bb major over a D major track might in fact sound just awful and be quite illogical theoretically.

Quote by itstheman
I always thought modes were something more, like strange alterations of the scale that changed it into something completely different. But looking at charts I figured this. Am I wrong?
Yes, you are fairly far off. You're on the right track, but you're still missing a lot. Modal playing isn't just playing different scales over a progression. You can't change the key/mode of a progression by playing a different scale/mode over it. In fact, a lot of what determines tonality/modality is the harmonic progression going on under the melody.

Quote by itstheman
If I'm playing within the scale of Bb major, but focusing on the flavor notes of D phyrgian, that is playing D phrygian then, no?
Well it depends. If you're playing Bb major, then no matter what notes you focus on, you're playing in Bb major. You could even be making a conscious effort to make it sound like D phrygian and it could turn out as Bb major. Like I said, a lot of it has to do with the harmony. If there is no harmony, that makes it a lot simpler. You pretty much just have to make the flavor notes apparent while avoiding an implied resolution to Bb major.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Jun 18, 2010,
#11
Quote by itstheman
Thanks very much for this.

I usually just stick to one key and play accidentals...I hear phrases in my head and play them when I play to tracks, but I'd like to have a better understanding of exactly what I'm doing.

What I don't understand is how everyone else is disagreeing completely, and you're saying I'm in the right direction.

If I'm playing within the scale of Bb major, but focusing on the flavor notes of D phyrgian, that is playing D phrygian then, no?



Most people tend to think in only one key so the break the key down in:

D ionian, E Dorian, F# phrygian, G, lydian, A Mixolydian, B Aeolian, C# Locrian

Instead of starting all the modes based on D like you just did.

You could do this with the modes of any scale, (melodic minor, harmonic maj, etc) for even more flavors, but you'll realize in the end that you're playing chromatically, going for specific intervals instead of notes themselves.

Be careful though, in a regular tonal setting you could melt your mind though, keep it simple and stick to the chord tones and then take it away from there however far you want to take it.
#12
Quote by food1010
No. If you play D phrygian over a D phrygian track it'll sound phrygian. Playing Bb major over a D major track might in fact sound just awful and be quite illogical theoretically.

Yes, you are fairly far off. You're on the right track, but you're still missing a lot. Modal playing isn't just playing different scales over a progression. You can't change the key/mode of a progression by playing a different scale/mode over it. In fact, a lot of what determines tonality/modality is the harmonic progression going on under the melody.


I'm not changing the key of anything. I'm using the notes in Bb major -- which ARE the notes of D phrygian.

This is a D phrygian scale, right?

D-0-1-3-5-7-8-10-12------------

That's D Eb F G B Bb C D. That's the notes in Bb major. No?

So when i think D phrygian, it is somewhat logical to link it to a Bb major scale, but with D as the root?
Quote by AlanHB
As for the guitarist being a wanker - he's a guitarist. Get used to it.
#13
Quote by itstheman
If I'm playing within the scale of Bb major, but focusing on the flavor notes of D phyrgian, that is playing D phrygian then, no?
Playing over a D major progression, will force you back to D in most cases, so thinking about it that way will run you into a brick wall in terms of actual mode usage. You might think you're playing Phrygian patterns, but you're still in D major.

To get the true flavor of each mode, use the same root note, but adjust the intervals accordingly.

For instance:

D ionian - 1,2,3,4,5,6,7
D dorian - 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7
D phrygian - 1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
D lydian - 1,2,3,#4,5,6,7
D mixolydian - 1,2,3,4,5,6,b7
D aeolian - 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
D locrian - 1,b2,b3,4,b5,b6,b7

EDIT: If you read before my edit, ignore that. Brain fart...
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
Last edited by hockeyplayer168 at Jun 18, 2010,
#14
Quote by itstheman
I'm not changing the key of anything. I'm using the notes in Bb major -- which ARE the notes of D phrygian.

This is a D phrygian scale, right?

D-0-1-3-5-7-8-10-12------------

That's D Eb F G B Bb C D. That's the notes in Bb major. No?
This is all correct, but to determine it as strictly D phrygian or strictly Bb major is wrong. Without context it is impossible to determine which it is. If you were to play it straight up and down, starting on D, going up to D, and coming back down to D, with no other harmony or contrary melody, then it would be D phrygian, but if there's any hint of Bb major tonality, such as a Dm Eb F progression or something like that, then it would be fair to say that D phrygian is implausible.

Quote by itstheman
So when i think D phrygian, it is somewhat logical to link it to a Bb major scale, but with D as the root?
Only as logical as it is to link F minor to Ab major. They contain the same notes, sure; but they are very different sounding.

I actually think it's best to link D phrygian to D minor, because it's easiest to alter a D minor harmonic progression/melody to sound like/suggest D phrygian compared to altering a Bb major harmonic progression/melody to sound like/suggest D phrygian. It's a lot harder to change the tonic than to flat the 2. Well, it may not be that much harder, but it will likely take a lot more alterations.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#15
Quote by food1010
I actually think it's best to link D phrygian to D minor, because it's easiest to alter a D minor harmonic progression/melody to sound like/suggest D phrygian compared to altering a Bb major harmonic progression/melody to sound like/suggest D phrygian. It's a lot harder to change the tonic than to flat the 2. Well, it may not be that much harder, but it will likely take a lot more alterations.


I'm not thinking of it as if it has any regards to Bb major at all though. I'm simply making the point that they have the same notes in the scale.

I am not saying that playing a Bb major progression and then playing Bb major is D Dorian. That is Bb major. I am saying that in a situation where D Dorian is actually plausible, I can think of D Dorian as the notes of Bb major, but D is the tonic.
Quote by AlanHB
As for the guitarist being a wanker - he's a guitarist. Get used to it.
#16
Quote by itstheman
I'm not thinking of it as if it has any regards to Bb major at all though. I'm simply making the point that they have the same notes in the scale.

I am not saying that playing a Bb major progression and then playing Bb major is D Dorian. That is Bb major. I am saying that in a situation where D Dorian is actually plausible, I can think of D Dorian as the notes of Bb major, but D is the tonic.
Yes, that is correct, then. It's fine to note that they share the same notes, but it's also important to note that all the notes change function when you change the tonic. You no longer have 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, you now have 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7.

But there truly is nothing wrong with noting that they share the same notes.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#17
EDIT: Disregard, I went off the edge beyond what you're looking for.

PM me if you want and I'll help you out, but rereading the thread, the post I just took out is completely beyond what you're looking for.
Last edited by Pillo114 at Jun 18, 2010,
#18
Here it is in a nutshell. If you think from a guitar pattern based formula you could play what is commonly lableled a Bb Major Pattern over a D Phrygian Progression, you will be sounding and having a modal effect with the improvisation. But leave it there. There are no more relationships to Bb Major and D Phrygian as far as playing or what modes are ...none.
#19
Quote by Sean0913
Here it is in a nutshell. If you think from a guitar pattern based formula you could play what is commonly lableled a Bb Major Pattern over a D Phrygian Progression, you will be sounding and having a modal effect with the improvisation. But leave it there. There are no more relationships to Bb Major and D Phrygian as far as playing or what modes are ...none.


That's right if you're thinking tonally but I don't think he is. He's thinking of the note set and not the key. The thread I had to pull out went into this but I don't think i should be melting brains and confuse him even more.
#20
We guitarists have been fooled for a long time into believing modes are like scales, in that they are patterns.

However, modes arent patterns to play over something, rather that something you play over it is what is modal.

A set of notes isnt modal, it's the composition that is modal.. it's more about the chord progression or cadences used.

However, those fretboard patterns that are given modal names are kinda usefull for a mode because the lowest note is then the tonic of what you are playing in.
#21
Quote by ShadesOfGray
A set of notes isnt modal, it's the composition that is modal.. it's more about the chord progression or cadences used.


</every modal debate ever>
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#22
Quote by AeolianWolf
</every modal debate ever>


Not quite, modern music is based on sets of notes versus keys, it just so happened they stuck to the "modes" name in jazz. I've said this like 5000 times here. Check this out:

http://www.freejazzinstitute.org/showposts.php?dept=transcriptions&topic=20090410153831_EdByrne

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRiwDuzadl0

This is what I had posted that I took out, I think the TS is thinking about pitch sets and not about keys, making him look wrong.

A set of notes isnt modal, it's the composition that is modal.. it's more about the chord progression or cadences used.


That's actually not accurate, in most modal settings chords are treated as servants of the melody, almost like being a single background flavor sound rather than a step in a line. Chords take a backseat to allow for a freer feel.
Last edited by Pillo114 at Jun 19, 2010,