#1
okay guys, basically i've been wondering why every major scales has a relative minor scale that has the same notes just in a different order and same chords (As far as I can tell, i can only stack in thirds right now). the only difference i see is the tonic and the way the the notes are in a different order. can some one please explain more on why there's relative scales?
#2
Quote by schism8
okay guys, basically i've been wondering why every major scales has a relative minor scale that has the same notes just in a different order and same chords (As far as I can tell, i can only stack in thirds right now). the only difference i see is the tonic and the way the the notes are in a different order. can some one please explain more on why there's relative scales?


That's just the way music was made.
Why do you really want to know
#3
Because when you start and end on a different note, the overall "feel" is different. When the tonic is different, the scale is different. Let me get some examples:

Bach - Prelude in C Major
Franz Schubert - Sonata in A minor D.784

Both of these examples use the same notes, and the same chords (overall), but they both sound radically different.
#4
um. this is a stupid thread.
Marshall amplifiers are the truest purveyors of rock and roll known to man.

"And give a man an amplifier and a synthesizer, and he doesn't become whoever, you know. He doesn't become us."

Holy crap, check this out!
#5
do C major and A minor sound different to you?
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#6
Quote by Sguit
That's just the way music was made.
Why do you really want to know



because i would like to know why.
i'm fine if that's the only reason, hell better on me, less learning.
i'm just really confused.
#7
just wait for AeolianWolf to come along...
Last edited by FreshouttaMS9 at Jun 21, 2010,
#8
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Because when you start and end on a different note, the overall "feel" is different. When the tonic is different, the scale is different. Let me get some examples:

Bach - Prelude in C Major
Franz Schubert - Sonata in A minor D.784

Both of these examples use the same notes, and the same chords (overall), but they both sound radically different.


but that's what i'm not understanding. the same notes, same chords they sound different but they aren't? it's not like when you use a Cmaj scale you would go Cchord, than D and E, etc
and with the Aminor scale you would go A, B, C, etc how do you get a different sound?
#9
its not the notes, its the relationship between them.

Edited.
Last edited by bbetances at Jun 21, 2010,
#10
Quote by schism8
but that's what i'm not understanding. the same notes, same chords they sound different but they aren't? it's not like when you use a Cmaj scale you would go Cchord, than D and E, etc
and with the Aminor scale you would go A, B, C, etc how do you get a different sound?

They sound different because they are different.

I'll use cars as examples. Have you ever driven a Honda Civic? It's slow, and it's sluggish, but it gets you from point A to point B. Compare that to a Mustang. It's fast, and it's energetic, but it also gets you from point A to point B. They're both made of the same (overall) parts, but they're two vastly different things. The focus (tonic) was changed from a Civic (C Major) to a Mustang (A Minor). This change changed everything in the way the music is made. The relationships between the chords, while the same, now have a different focal point, or the point they want to get back to (tonic). The point of the Civic is to be reliable in the same way the point of C Major is to get everything focused on C Major. Same goes for the Mustang and A Minor.

NOTE: C Major is not a Civic and A Minor is not a Mustang. Anyone who believes so... just... leave and never come back.


Quote by bbetances
its not the notes, its the intervals between them.


If the notes are the same, the intervals are the same. The relationships between the notes have changed.
#11
Quote by DiminishedFifth
They sound different because they are different.

I'll use cars as examples. Have you ever driven a Honda Civic? It's slow, and it's sluggish, but it gets you from point A to point B. Compare that to a Mustang. It's fast, and it's energetic, but it also gets you from point A to point B. They're both made of the same (overall) parts, but they're two vastly different things. The focus (tonic) was changed from a Civic (C Major) to a Mustang (A Minor). This change changed everything in the way the music is made. The relationships between the chords, while the same, now have a different focal point, or the point they want to get back to (tonic). The point of the Civic is to be reliable in the same way the point of C Major is to get everything focused on C Major. Same goes for the Mustang and A Minor.

NOTE: C Major is not a Civic and A Minor is not a Mustang. Anyone who believes so... just... leave and never come back.


If the notes are the same, the intervals are the same. The relationships between the notes have changed.


Sorry dude but that was a REALLY bad analogy. justsayin

EDIT: I should have expanded on this. Yes, A Mustang and a Civic get you from point A to point B. But the difference in brands and quality are what make the Mustang perform better. Scales dont "perform" better. They sound different. Some "perform" better in certain situations, but thats more like comparing an SUV and a sedan. Or an off-road vehicle and a hybrid coupe.

And for the record, both Hondas and Fords suck and have always had problems getting more from point A to point B reliably.

/rant
/troll
Last edited by bbetances at Jun 21, 2010,
#12
Quote by bbetances
Sorry dude but that was a REALLY bad analogy. justsayin

Haha makes perfect sense to me!

But that could be what makes it bad... my mind is a little... gone xD

EDIT: A dumbed down version of the analogy: The parts are the same, but the form and function are different. This is the difference in relative scales.
Last edited by DiminishedFifth at Jun 21, 2010,
#13
The interval pattern of a major scale is W-W-H-W-W-W-H (W = whole step, H = half step).

The interval pattern of a minor scale is W-H-W-W-H-W-W.

If you start the major scale on C, you end up playing all white (in terms of a piano) keys. The same result is achieved by starting the minor scale on A. As you already know, the notes themselves are the same (all naturals), but the sequence of intervals is different. It is the difference in sequences that lends those scales their different sounds.
#14
Quote by FreshouttaMS9
just wait for AeolianWolf to come along...


haha, i already posted.

EDIT: let me put it this way. if you take the white notes [C, D, E, F, G, A, B] and you make a composition with them (completely ignoring accidentals for now), whether it's in C major or A minor depends on the resolution. if it resolves on C, then it's going to be in C major. if it resolves on A, it's going to be in A minor.

play the following progressions on your guitar:

1) Cmaj - Fmaj (if you're not good at barres, Dm works fine) - Gmaj - Cmaj
2) Am - Dm - Em* - Am

hopefully you should feel the difference between the two.

*feel free to make this chord Emaj - you'll be borrowing the G# from A harmonic minor. if you've never heard of the harmonic minor scale yet, completely ignore this footnote and just play Em.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Last edited by AeolianWolf at Jun 22, 2010,
#15
Quote by bbetances
Sorry dude but that was a REALLY bad analogy. justsayin

EDIT: I should have expanded on this. Yes, A Mustang and a Civic get you from point A to point B. But the difference in brands and quality are what make the Mustang perform better. Scales dont "perform" better. They sound different. Some "perform" better in certain situations, but thats more like comparing an SUV and a sedan. Or an off-road vehicle and a hybrid coupe.

And for the record, both Hondas and Fords suck and have always had problems getting more from point A to point B reliably.

/rant
/troll

Haha you've read a little TOO into my analogy ;]

They still both have bumpers, mufflers, engines, steering wheels, wheels, et cetera. What makes them different might be the brand and stuff, but that could be compared, in music, to how it's used. My whole analogy was about how, even though they both are composed of the same parts (A B C D E F G), there is a huge difference in the two cars because of the different brands (the function) and the relationships between the parts.

Scales might not perform better, but, for the point of the analogy, replace perform with sound, cars with scales, and better with different. The analogy then makes sense.
#16
Quote by schism8
okay guys, basically i've been wondering why every major scales has a relative minor scale that has the same notes just in a different order and same chords (As far as I can tell, i can only stack in thirds right now). the only difference i see is the tonic and the way the the notes are in a different order. can some one please explain more on why there's relative scales?


Its a specific order and occurrence of half and whole steps, which is what defines every scale. When you realize it is THAT which gives scales their identity, you wont be confused. Its not just notes but a specific combination of whole and half steps and where they occur (degrees).

Best,

Sean
#17
Quote by Sean0913
Its a specific order and occurrence of half and whole steps, which is what defines every scale. When you realize it is THAT which gives scales their identity, you wont be confused. Its not just notes but a specific combination of whole and half steps and where they occur (degrees).

Best,

Sean


+1 its the formula

Quote by schism8
okay guys, basically i've been wondering why every major scales has a relative minor scale that has the same notes just in a different order and same chords (As far as I can tell, i can only stack in thirds right now). the only difference i see is the tonic and the way the the notes are in a different order. can some one please explain more on why there's relative scales?


Why ask why?...... it is what is.

The scales are related.... but are different scales.

Thats how it is....become familiar with it...... utilize it.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 22, 2010,
#18
Quote by bbetances


And for the record, both Hondas and Fords suck and have always had problems getting more from point A to point B reliably.

/rant
/troll


hondas do suck...but dont EVER NEVER talk about ford like that
and i mean it buddy

on the matter at hand tho i am confused

i broke down the A Maj scale and i see it has 3 shraps.
from what i learned flatting the maj 3rd into a min 3rd makes it a minor correct?

theres still the maj 6th and maj 7th tho...so to have all natural notes it would have to be
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1 wouldnt this change the scale to something different then just a minor? or am i missing something?
Last edited by metalmetalhead at Jun 22, 2010,
#19
Quote by metalmetalhead
i broke down the A Maj scale and i see it has 3 shraps.
from what i learned flatting the maj 3rd into a min 3rd makes it a minor correct?

theres still the maj 6th and maj 7th tho...so to have all natural notes it would have to be
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1 wouldnt this change the scale to something different then just a minor? or am i missing something?

For a minor triad you have to flat the 3rd, but for a whole 7 note scale you have to lower the 3rd, 6th, and 7th degrees.
So C# -> C, F# -> F, and G# -> G.
#20
Quote by metalmetalhead
hondas do suck...but dont EVER NEVER talk about ford like that
and i mean it buddy

on the matter at hand tho i am confused

i broke down the A Maj scale and i see it has 3 shraps.
from what i learned flatting the maj 3rd into a min 3rd makes it a minor correct?

theres still the maj 6th and maj 7th tho...so to have all natural notes it would have to be
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1 wouldnt this change the scale to something different then just a minor? or am i missing something?


Your'e missing something. What are the notes in A Major?

A B C# D E F# G# A

Flat the 3 6 and 7 degrees and they are all now

A B C D E F G A - Relative minor of C Major.

C D E F G A B C - just note the way the placement of whole and half steps have changed.

I told you the answer the first time, that's what it is.
#21
The notes are the same, but they have a different function in C major than in A minor. This is something you have to hear because if you just see 7 notes listed without a context it's hard to understand.

I'll give you an example. Establish C major by playing the chord progression C-F-G-C a few times. Then run up and down the C major scale a few times (C to C an octive higher and back). Then play the note C. You'll notice when you play the note it sounds like home. It's at absolute rest with no tension. This is the tonic of the key.

Now do the same with A minor. Play the progression Am-Dm-Em-Am a few times. Then run up and down the A minor scale a few times. Play the note A. Doesn't it sound like it's home with no tension and no need to resolve to anything else? Now play the C. It sounds good because it's the 3rd degree but it doesn't sound like the ultimate resting place now that you are in A minor. Play the notes C, B, A. Doesn't A sound like the tonic?

All of the notes have a different function in C major than in A minor and sound different relative to the tonic. That's why you have major and relative minor scales even though the notes are the same.
#23
Quote by Sean0913
Your'e missing something. What are the notes in A Major?

A B C# D E F# G# A

Flat the 3 6 and 7 degrees and they are all now

A B C D E F G A - Relative minor of C Major.

C D E F G A B C - just note the way the placement of whole and half steps have changed.

I told you the answer the first time, that's what it is.


i understand how A min is different from C Maj...the formula speaks for it self,
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1. my question...is this a regular minor scale? or has it been changed to fit the c Major scale?

if so does this mean..relative minor scales are changed to fit a major scale?

sorry if i am out of line..asking questions on another persons post. but maybe formula will help
#24
Quote by metalmetalhead
i understand how A min is different from C Maj...the formula speaks for it self,
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1. my question...is this a regular minor scale? or has it been changed to fit the c Major scale?

if so does this mean..relative minor scales are changed to fit a major scale?

sorry if i am out of line..asking questions on another persons post. but maybe formula will help
I have no idea what you're asking. No, they aren't changed to fit anything. They just are what they are.

The formula for the natural minor scale is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7. The reason this is the relative minor scale to the major scale is you get those intervals by comparing all the notes to the sixth degree of the major scale. Hopefully that makes sense.

Quote by ouchies
You are changing the tonic, its almost like changing keys, but not really. Try soloing over this

CM - G7 - CM (I - V7 - I)

and then

Am - E7 - Am (i - V7 - i)

They're both in the same key but they sound completely different.
No they aren't. One's in C major and the other is in A minor. Now I realize you might have meant to say they use the same notes, but they don't do that either. E7 is not diatonic to the key of A minor, it borrows the G# from the A harmonic minor scale. The example does demonstrate the point that the resolution is determined by how you use specific chords.

Another example would be this:

C F Dm G
Am F Dm Em

See how the chords used "set up" the resolution differently? Both use only notes within the C major scale (in fact, the two middle chords in both are the same chords), but through the other chords, they develop different tonality.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Jun 22, 2010,
#25
Quote by metalmetalhead
i understand how A min is different from C Maj...the formula speaks for it self,
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1. my question...is this a regular minor scale? or has it been changed to fit the c Major scale?

if so does this mean..relative minor scales are changed to fit a major scale?

sorry if i am out of line..asking questions on another persons post. but maybe formula will help


The Major Scale is the granddaddy of Western Music - all roads lead from it. So when you see the understanding of intervals in other scales, it's a derivative of the Major scale. So, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all would be the Major scale. a 1 b2, etc means take what you'd normally play in a Major scale and instead of playing 2 play a b2. Its an aid to learning the other scales and how they are derived. Everything musically is derived from the understanding of the Major scale almost as a standard.
#27
Quote by tenfold
Didn't we develop the minor scale before the major scale?
Aeolian mode, yes. Minor scale, no.

Actually, I should reword that for clarification:

In modern tonal theory, everything is built off of the major scale. Whichever was developed first is irrelevant. Theory was a bit different in ancient times. The Aeolian mode was created before the Ionian mode, but sometime when modern tonal theory rolled around, someone decided that the intervals of the major scale were the "natural" intervals. Now, my knowledge of modal/tonal history is not that extensive, so someone else might be able to specify this further, but I believe that's sort of right, haha.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Jun 23, 2010,
#28
first off, sorry for bumping this - i didn't want to make another thread.

now, i'm still a little confused. alright, here's what i understand so far;
the two scales use the same notes, but are in different order, the chords are different for each scale, and the intervals are different. okay, now i don't exactly understand the whole chords progressions you guys were saying, well maybe i do. you tell me if i do.

okay, you guys said to play C, F, G and C
now those would be the I, IV, V chords of the scale
and then you asked me to play
Am, Dm, Em and again, those are the I, IV and V chords of the scale.
now is that what you mean? is that why there are two scales with the same notes?
the note degrees change and gives the scale a different tone?

see, it's hard to explain how i feel right now. i feel that i slightly understand it but can't hear it. or maybe i still don't understand it? like i feel like i'm missing something. when using a specific scale, are you supposed to use certain degrees to progress? like i noticed all the examples where I, IV and V degrees and it depended what scale i used gave it a sad (Aminor) or happy sound(Cmajor) but both minor and major chords belong in both scales. so how does that work when mixing majors and minors?
#29
Quote by schism8
okay, you guys said to play C, F, G and C
now those would be the I, IV, V chords of the scale
and then you asked me to play
Am, Dm, Em and again, those are the I, IV and V chords of the scale.
now is that what you mean? is that why there are two scales with the same notes?
the note degrees change and gives the scale a different tone?

There's only 12 notes. It's just coincidence they appear in more than one scale.

Quote by schism8
when using a specific scale, are you supposed to use certain degrees to progress?

To progress? You're not supposed to do anything. You can do whatever you like.

Quote by schism8
like i noticed all the examples where I, IV and V degrees and it depended what scale i used gave it a sad (Aminor) or happy sound(Cmajor) but both minor and major chords belong in both scales. so how does that work when mixing majors and minors?

Learn to harmonize a scale into chords. You will see that the chords you come up with all have the same notes as the scale you picked. And other scales use these chords but in a different way, it's just coincidence.
#30
Quote by tenfold
There's only 12 notes. It's just coincidence they appear in more than one scale.


To progress? You're not supposed to do anything. You can do whatever you like.


Learn to harmonize a scale into chords. You will see that the chords you come up with all have the same notes as the scale you picked. And other scales use these chords but in a different way, it's just coincidence.
He's talking about relative major and minor. It's not really a "coincidence" that they have the same notes. They have the same notes because they're relative major and minor.

Quote by schism8
first off, sorry for bumping this - i didn't want to make another thread.

now, i'm still a little confused. alright, here's what i understand so far;
the two scales use the same notes, but are in different order, the chords are different for each scale, and the intervals are different. okay, now i don't exactly understand the whole chords progressions you guys were saying, well maybe i do. you tell me if i do.

okay, you guys said to play C, F, G and C
now those would be the I, IV, V chords of the scale
and then you asked me to play
Am, Dm, Em and again, those are the I, IV and V chords of the scale.
now is that what you mean? is that why there are two scales with the same notes?
the note degrees change and gives the scale a different tone?

see, it's hard to explain how i feel right now. i feel that i slightly understand it but can't hear it. or maybe i still don't understand it? like i feel like i'm missing something. when using a specific scale, are you supposed to use certain degrees to progress? like i noticed all the examples where I, IV and V degrees and it depended what scale i used gave it a sad (Aminor) or happy sound(Cmajor) but both minor and major chords belong in both scales. so how does that work when mixing majors and minors?
Actually TS, it would seem you understand it pretty well.

You do use different chords/scale degrees for different functions in chord progressions. This differs for different keys as well. For example, C is the tonic of C major, but it's the bIII of A minor, taking on an entirely different function.

As for mixing majors and minors I'm not exactly sure if I understand what you're asking. If you mean having a progression in C major that goes C Em F G, then the reason the Em isn't "out of place" is because it actually helps the progression by performing its individual function just as the other chords are.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Jun 29, 2010,