Page 1 of 2
#1
Good evening,

I purchased an Epiphone Les Paul Special II about a year ago, because I wanted to begin taking lessons but was uncertain that I would practice regularly and enjoy playing. I based my decision on the idea that the Epiphone would be adequate for at least a year or two of novice play.

Over the past few months, however, I have begun to desire a much better guitar (PRS McCarty or 513). I wonder if this is simply a waste of my money at this point.
My question is this: at what point "should" one upgrade one's guitar? Or will a person be able to advance technically without? Please keep in mind that I play for pleasure only, and the only other person who hears me play to any degree is my instructor.

I am also aware of the argument that a fine instrument motivates one to practice.

Thank you for your consideration.
#2
I purchased a cheap washburn. a year later i purchased a better Gibson SG
2 years later i purchased my Schecter Hellrasier.
I think its easyer to play on a high qulity guitar and also it motivates like you said
#3
I've upgraded twice. I got my first guitar and loved it. Then, I got my epiphone SG. I just got my Shecter hellraiser about a year ago. Still plays like new. The question is: are you serious about playing the guitar? it doesn't matter if you play shows or not. Are you going to play it enough that it wasn't a waste?


EDIT: to the guy above me: We both got hellraisers as our 3rd guitars!
Last edited by whatadrag at Jun 22, 2010,
#4
I say if u want it go for it. If you are passionate enough about it, know it's something you will stick at and have the money they why not.
#5
Quote by whatadrag
I've upgraded twice. I got my first guitar and loved it. Then, I got my epiphone SG. I just got my Shecter hellraiser about a year ago. Still plays like new. The question is: are you serious about playing the guitar? it doesn't matter if you play shows or not. Are you going to play it enough that it wasn't a waste?


EDIT: to the guy above me: We both got hellraisers as our 3rd guitars!



yeah you got good taste in guitars mate
#6
it`s entirely up to you....go with what your heart tells you there`s no cut off period, i know peeps that won`t pay more than 50 pound for a guitar and have been playing 30+ years, personally i`m of the opinion that if a piece of kit is good enough for my guitar heroes (hate that term) then it`s good enough for me.
#7
yeah, as soon as I got rid of my bronze warlock and got a Jackson Dk-2, I noticed my motivation to start playing better became an obsession so to speak. Don't know why this happens, but I guess cuz the guitar feels comfortable, and the fact that you want to be as good as the guitar is.
#8
when you've decided to stick with the guitar is the time to upgrade. that doesn't mean you have to spend 2 grand though. many beginner (and a few not so beginner) players seem to be under the impression that a high end giitar will somehow magically make them "superior" players. this is not the case. there is also a contingent that believes you're not "serious" if you don't invest in high end equipment, once again not the case. get something in the $500 -750 range and keep in mind that you will want a better amp as well. no point in buying a great guitar and playing it thru a crappy beginner amp (you won'thear the difference). the biggest thin to keep in mind is that you need to find a guitar that speaks to you and feels right. forget about the price tag. my fav guitar is a $225 cheapie but it plays and sounds great (yes i do have way more expensive guitars)
#9
Quote by monwobobbo
when you've decided to stick with the guitar is the time to upgrade. that doesn't mean you have to spend 2 grand though. many beginner (and a few not so beginner) players seem to be under the impression that a high end giitar will somehow magically make them "superior" players. this is not the case. there is also a contingent that believes you're not "serious" if you don't invest in high end equipment, once again not the case. get something in the $500 -750 range and keep in mind that you will want a better amp as well. no point in buying a great guitar and playing it thru a crappy beginner amp (you won'thear the difference). the biggest thin to keep in mind is that you need to find a guitar that speaks to you and feels right. forget about the price tag. my fav guitar is a $225 cheapie but it plays and sounds great (yes i do have way more expensive guitars)

Nicely done.
#10
My concern about purchasing a cheaper guitar is that I do not want to have to upgrade again. Plus, the high end PRSs are gorgeous.

I am under no illusion that the guitar will make me a better player (at least not consciously) - but will continuing to use the epiphone hold me back as a player?

As far as the amp goes, I play in my bedroom with a 15W Line 6 Spider, which is already rather loud given the space and my proximity to the amp. Given that situation, will upgrading the amp make much difference?

Thank you for your insight.

Quote by monwobobbo
when you've decided to stick with the guitar is the time to upgrade. that doesn't mean you have to spend 2 grand though. many beginner (and a few not so beginner) players seem to be under the impression that a high end giitar will somehow magically make them "superior" players. this is not the case. there is also a contingent that believes you're not "serious" if you don't invest in high end equipment, once again not the case. get something in the $500 -750 range and keep in mind that you will want a better amp as well. no point in buying a great guitar and playing it thru a crappy beginner amp (you won'thear the difference). the biggest thin to keep in mind is that you need to find a guitar that speaks to you and feels right. forget about the price tag. my fav guitar is a $225 cheapie but it plays and sounds great (yes i do have way more expensive guitars)
#11
Quote by odranoel
As far as the amp goes, I play in my bedroom with a 15W Line 6 Spider, which is already rather loud given the space and my proximity to the amp. Given that situation, will upgrading the amp make much difference?


if anything, i'd upgrade the amp before even considering a new guitar.
#12
Quote by odranoel
My concern about purchasing a cheaper guitar is that I do not want to have to upgrade again. Plus, the high end PRSs are gorgeous.

I am under no illusion that the guitar will make me a better player (at least not consciously) - but will continuing to use the epiphone hold me back as a player?

As far as the amp goes, I play in my bedroom with a 15W Line 6 Spider, which is already rather loud given the space and my proximity to the amp. Given that situation, will upgrading the amp make much difference?

Thank you for your insight.


It doesn't matter how expensive the next guitar you buy is, once you've had it for a little while you'll start wanting to buy more. It's the nature of guitar players. We're not just players, we're nearly all collectors too!

A better amp will make a huge difference even at lower volume levels. You can get some pretty good 5W valve amps, which are still surpisingly loud given their power rating and have far superior tone to the Spider. Something like that might be worth looking into.
#13
Quote by heminder
if anything, i'd upgrade the amp before even considering a new guitar.


But it has insane rock effects!

Anyway, if it makes any difference, it is a Spider III.
#14
Quote by odranoel
My concern about purchasing a cheaper guitar is that I do not want to have to upgrade again. Plus, the high end PRSs are gorgeous.

I am under no illusion that the guitar will make me a better player (at least not consciously) - but will continuing to use the epiphone hold me back as a player?

As far as the amp goes, I play in my bedroom with a 15W Line 6 Spider, which is already rather loud given the space and my proximity to the amp. Given that situation, will upgrading the amp make much difference?

Thank you for your insight.


your welcome. as already mentioned the idea that you will buy one guitar the angels will sing and you will be done buying guitars won't happen. i'm 49 and have been through way more guitars than i can count. i've been through 7 in the last 2 years. something to keep in mind is that you will evolve as a player. what seems great now may not suite you 10 - 15 years down the road. i've had plenty of metal orientated guitars over the years (been playing for 33) now i play a Strat. sure the occasional guy will find the "perfect" guitar right off the bat but not most of us. find something that works for you now and just let the journey take you wherever it might go.

sorry but a spider 111 is ok for basic practice but i assure you you won't notice a bg difference in sound regardless of what guitar you plug into it. get yourself something like the Bugera V22 to start with (yeah amps are the same deal as guitars you'll go through a few) its tube sounds decent for practice etc. FX are fun but often are used to cover up crappy tone. you can always get yourself a multi fx unit that will probably be better than what you have in your amp.
#15
there is not really a proper time to upgrade a guitar. its not like you will fail to progress any further on your current guitar (though its likely you will be at least somewhat hampered by the playability). rather, you ought to upgrade when you feel like you have out-grown the instrument that you're playing. that is to say, when the sounds simply arent "good enough" anymore or you routinely wish that a characteristic of the guitars mechanics was different (such as wishing it had a faster neck, meatier pickups, different bridge), then it is time to upgrade. keep in mind, this has nothing to do with whether you want a new guitar (as this is always the case) but rather the inability of your equipment to keep up with you. since this is totally subjective, its really up to you when you need a new guitar. that being said, i dont think you'll be able to justify a $4000 PRS, try something a little more down to earth (dont worry about upgrading again; you'll end up buying different guitars eventually anyways)

as far as amps go, please burn your spider and then try something (well, anything really) else. the spider is okay as a first amp, but it really isnt all that good sounding even in a begginer capacity. there is really no way for a spider to keep up with you for a long time. i'm going to suggest two options: if you like simply, get a vox nightrain. brilliant little single channel all tube head with 15 watts (its loud, but not painfully so). if you absolutely must muck around with more knobs, peavey's valveking 112 is really one of the best small amps around (and certainly the best sub $400 tube amp anywhere, period).
#16
Quote by Chaz-6(sic)6
yeah, as soon as I got rid of my bronze warlock and got a Jackson Dk-2, I noticed my motivation to start playing better became an obsession so to speak. Don't know why this happens, but I guess cuz the guitar feels comfortable, and the fact that you want to be as good as the guitar is.

Same. I'd been playing for 6 years when I finally got sick and tired of my crappy Ibanez starter guitar and invested in a Gibson Les Paul. I had always loved to play guitar, so I figured hey, why not get me a GOOD guitar that will last for a lifetime? But one unexpected side effect was that the Gibson made me utterly obsessed with practicing because it felt so good.

I'd say go for it if you are passionate about playing.
#18
first thing to do is upgrade your amp. something high quality ss if that's what you want or tube. Then you'll start hearing things you've never heard before.
Then you can upgrade when you think you're lacking something.

A 513 is a beautiful guitar, but I'd say buy some cheap guitars from various companies first and figure out what you like. The PRS guitars are 25 inch scale length while the gibson's are shorter. Fender's are longer. Which one are you going to prefer? What about neck size, shape, fret size? All that stuff is important. Don't blow 3k without at least knowing how those things affect your playing.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#19
I have 28 electric guitars. If new, some would cost $3500. I've never paid more than $500 for a guitar (including 6 American Strats and a Gibson Les Paul custom).

Start following the local on-line ads. If patient, you can pick up anything in almost mint shape for less than half price...usually even less. Except for Fenders and Gibsons. Fenders for 70% the new price...and Gibsons about 60%. good used guitar amps can be bought at about 35%

Best thing, if you don't like the guiitar, you can usually sell it for what you bought it for....usually more if in no rush.
#20
once you're sure you'll stick with it, and once you've got enough disposable income to cover it.

also what acoustic mirror is saying about learning what you like about guitars, how the different specs etc. affect things. A $3000 guitar (unless you're really unlucky) should be a good guitar, but it might not suit you, kind of thing.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#21
If you want to purchase a new one, well go ahead. You've been played for 2 years ( from what your post says I think), so it's not a bad idea.

But keep in mind that a good guitar player can play well in any guitar and If you are averaged skilled and buy a good guitar, it will not make a huge difference from keeping your average guitar.
Love the Guitar
Gear:
- Ibanez SZR520
- Peavey Vypyr 30w
- Alhambra 2C Classical Guitar
- Tortex .88mm/Jazz III 1.38mm
- Elixir Nanoweb Strings (.009)
#22
My advice is, just buy a guitar you like! when i began, i bought a acoustic guitar wich was already very old.. and only costed $100.. one month later i decided to go electric cuz i just like rock/metal.
I bought a guitar of $600, just because i liked it(well.. also becuz i'm a friggin' metal freak). i kept playing. And i still do, if you want a new guitar, just do ^^!

BCrichy666
Last edited by BCrichy666 at Jun 23, 2010,
#23
If $2000 is your budget, then you should get a$ 1500 guitar, and a $500 amp. Your mind will then be blown at how much better your setup sounds.
Epi Elitist LP Plus
Marshall Class 5
Vox AC30 CC2


"A person is a success if they get up in the morning and gets to bed at night and in between does what he wants to do."
#24
When ever you know you want to stick to it. I'm new to guitars and a bit older too. I got a cheap squire. I'm looking for the guitar for me the squire isn't in my taste I love playing even though I'm not good yet. If your heart is into it have the budget go for it, get the guitar you love. My 2 cents don't have to listen it. Typing on my touch so bear with my shotty typing.
Last edited by Metronome at Jun 23, 2010,
#25
Quote by The3818919
If $2000 is your budget, then you should get a$ 1500 guitar, and a $500 amp. Your mind will then be blown at how much better your setup sounds.



In his case, if I had $2000 I'd spend it on a amp. While a quality or high end guitar does typically sound better and has better playability, the amp is the real thing that makes for a good tone and makes you "happy" to play.

When I was 15, I bought a second hand Fender strat. I had it modified with a humbucker EMG and a Floyd Rose, and for years that was my blood sweat and tears guitar, it was all I could afford and it sounded great to my wants.

However playing it through a Peavey 2x12 at first I quickly realized that for me to get a happy sound and a amp capable of true gigging, the amp was going to have to be upgraded. So at 17 years old I saved and got a Marshall 800 JCM and I was in bliss after.

While I still have the JCM 800, these days I use a triple rectifier. Now I have some real nice guitars now, but I also have a $200 Squire fat strat, and while that Squire is not as *good* as my American strats or Les Paul, it sounds good none the less through those amps because those amps are choice quality. But if I were to plug in my LP into a crappy amp, it would sound crappy no matter probably.

Your Epiphone if set up good, is fully capable as a gigging guitar. I have a friend in a working band, he is a damn good player. Due to his budget, he bought two Squire stagemasters for $250 each, but has a kick ass full Marshall stack and effects unit and he gets a great sound every time I hear them play out.

So yes, a quality guitar is important, but the amp is even more so in my opinion.
#26
All this talk about amps (and tone) is quite discouraging, because my main interest in purchasing a new guitar is playability. My ear is not good enough to tell a difference, for example, between a LP and a PRS in the various youtube comparison videos. I similarly doubt I can tell much of a difference between good, decent, and poor amplifiers unless there is obvious hissing or popping. So many options for amps without any real ability to discern between them means that shopping would involve putting my faith in reviews while being unable to justify the purchase based upon my own perception.

Perhaps it would be better to wait until I have developed more of an ear as well as more skill, so that I have a better idea of what I want or need out of the equipment I purchase.

Thank you to everyone for the advice.
#28
It's not about how you sound to other people, it's about how you sound to you and how it plays for you. If you want an upgrade and have the money, then now is the time.

Everyone here always says put amp above guitar. Though I understand the point, I disagree. The amp is just an output for the guitar. The guitar is the instrument. The guitar is what you play and feel. I would recommend that you upgrade your guitar first, and then your amp when you can afford to, particularly since you aren't playing gigs or trying to record an EP.
Quote by BeefWellington

what's the point in being "philiosophical"?

Interesting question...
Last edited by Vornik at Jun 23, 2010,
#29
there are 3 questions you really need to answer when looking to buy guitars. they are:

1. do you want a new guitar?
2. do you know what you want in a guitar?
3. can you afford a guitar that does what you want?

the answer to #1 is easiest, and #2 is by far the hardest. i wouldnt drop a ton of money on a guitar unless i knew exactly what i wanted. i have mostly mid-ish level guitars. i know what kind of things i like from playing them, and i know what kind of sounds im after. i think this is where you are. you want better playability, but it also sounds like you are still working on finding out what you want. try out a lot of different guitars, even without buying anything. find the sound and feel that you like. short scales, long scales, solid body, hollow body, single coil, 'bucker, string through, floating bridge, etc. all make a difference in what you want.

but once you start figuring that out, you get to 3. if you make it to this point and the answer here is yes, then its time to upgrade.

getting stuck at 2 and buying a guitar or two in the $500-1000 range is also perfectly acceptable. the long process is something i would reserve more for that $2.5k+ guitar or whatever.
#30
Quote by odranoel
All this talk about amps (and tone) is quite discouraging, because my main interest in purchasing a new guitar is playability. My ear is not good enough to tell a difference, for example, between a LP and a PRS in the various youtube comparison videos. I similarly doubt I can tell much of a difference between good, decent, and poor amplifiers unless there is obvious hissing or popping. So many options for amps without any real ability to discern between them means that shopping would involve putting my faith in reviews while being unable to justify the purchase based upon my own perception.

Perhaps it would be better to wait until I have developed more of an ear as well as more skill, so that I have a better idea of what I want or need out of the equipment I purchase.

Thank you to everyone for the advice.


If you feel you are having issues with playability with your current guitar, then you should look into one you like better. Or ask a tech what could be done to tweak it.

Yes a guitar that you like and are comfortable with is very important, I'm just saying consider the amp also because that is also a very important factor. With a amp, usually what you pay for really means what you get, guitars can be more forgiving that way.

It all comes in time, don't get discouraged and in the end what you carry inside you as a player is what matters most. Youtube can be helpful, but trying different gear yourself and maybe listening to favorite players will help more. I can make a video for you tube but the microphone in my video camera isn't going to catch the real tone. Some guys use better recording for you tube but still, you one on one with your gear is what you need to do to make the best decision.
#31
Quote by monwobobbo
when you've decided to stick with the guitar is the time to upgrade. that doesn't mean you have to spend 2 grand though. many beginner (and a few not so beginner) players seem to be under the impression that a high end giitar will somehow magically make them "superior" players. this is not the case. there is also a contingent that believes you're not "serious" if you don't invest in high end equipment, once again not the case. get something in the $500 -750 range and keep in mind that you will want a better amp as well. no point in buying a great guitar and playing it thru a crappy beginner amp (you won'thear the difference). the biggest thin to keep in mind is that you need to find a guitar that speaks to you and feels right. forget about the price tag. my fav guitar is a $225 cheapie but it plays and sounds great (yes i do have way more expensive guitars)


This, also, refer to sig
"Guitar is tactile, It's about how you play it"
- Joe Bonamassa

#32
Quote by odranoel
Good evening,

Please keep in mind that I play for pleasure only,



Everything I said previous in the thread, I didn't consider this, I still stand by the fact that a good amp is important.


Have you caught the fever of playing? Do you want to get to a point you can jam with a band? If so, while you may not need a Marshall stack ( a half stack is the do all for most occasions IMO, though some people say a 2x12 is) a good 2x12 combo would be a good thing to consider.
#33
i was in a funk for a while just trying a bunch of stuff...
but man getting a new amp that sounds great...10 times more important then a guitar.
my deliverance has me itching to play it on it all the time.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#34
Quote by Vornik
(a) It's not about how you sound to other people, it's about how you sound to you and how it plays for you. If you want an upgrade and have the money, then now is the time.

(b) Everyone here always says put amp above guitar. Though I understand the point, I disagree. The amp is just an output for the guitar. The guitar is the instrument. The guitar is what you play and feel. I would recommend that you upgrade your guitar first, and then your amp when you can afford to, particularly since you aren't playing gigs or trying to record an EP.


(a) agreed.

(b) I kinda agree and disagree. A guitar that makes you want to play is extremely important, and if your current guitar is "that bad" (assuming it's not just badly set up), then a new guitar is the way to go.

But an amp isn't just a thing to make you louder. Different amps sound different, better amps react more to your playing, and the really good amps are as much a part of the instrument as the guitar is. A lot of times when people think the problem is the guitar, it's actually the amp. Not always, of course, but a lot of the time.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#35
In terms of guitars, if you're a bedroom player, comfort is above sound (you can upgrade the hardware / pickups later anyway). So the most important factor right now is comfort: how the body/neck feels, does it sit well in your lap, does the bridge poke you when you palm mute, can you easily reach the upper frets, etc etc etc.

If you're comfortable with the Les Paul shape, then I would keep the Epiphone and maybe upgrade it . However, I know people who only had Les Pauls, and the first time they played a strat they couldn't believe how much more comfortable it felt.

Therefore, my advice is to go into the store and try out some differently shaped guitars, see which fits you best. Looks aren't that important.
Dear God, do you actually answer prayers?

Yes, but only in a way indistinguishable from random luck or the result of your own efforts.
#36
I have the same guitar as OP; Epi' Les Paul Speacial II.

Is it worth to invest in it, buy new pick ups to it?
Next thing I'm gonna do is probably get a new guitar altogether but I'm not sure if I should keep my Special II. I probably would get only a few coins out of it and it is my first guitar...
Still I don't really want to have guitars just hanging around in the way.

Would it make sense to upgrade it or just to try to change it too?
#37
if you think you're going to hang onto it for sentimental reasons, a little bit of upgrading might be worthwhile. just don't sink too much money into it- e.g. tonerider or irongear pickups (not bareknuckles or duncan antiquities lol), upgrade pots and caps etc.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#38
I wanted to thank everyone again for their advice and counsel, and provide an update.
I started playing a classical guitar for the last few months (a very old Gibson). In the interim I have gone to GC and tried out a few different electrics, and have looked on CL for deals. I went in to GC the other day, and asked to try out a Les Paul Standard. They had a used Traditional for under $1700, which I tried out and really enjoyed. I wasn't going to get it, but then I saw the 0% financing for a year - I love those deals, as I am very careful about paying bills - and decided to buy.

I have 30 days to make a final decision and return it if I am dissatisfied; I will have someone I trust look it over and give me his opinion. On the one hand, I feel it is a good buy that I can sell for close to what I paid if I change my mind more distantly in the future. On the other hand, I can't shake the feeling that it is much more guitar than I need at this stage in my development, especially since I am primarily playing classical right now.
#39
Quote by Eddy~
I have the same guitar as OP; Epi' Les Paul Speacial II.

Is it worth to invest in it, buy new pick ups to it?
Next thing I'm gonna do is probably get a new guitar altogether but I'm not sure if I should keep my Special II. I probably would get only a few coins out of it and it is my first guitar...
Still I don't really want to have guitars just hanging around in the way.

Would it make sense to upgrade it or just to try to change it too?


I started on this guitar aswell, and I wouldn't recommend to invest in it really. Everything on it is as cheap as it gets, the neck isn't confortable (at least for me), and the pickups just sound muddy and that's about it.

To be honnest I hated the damn thing to a point that it made me play much less. The only thing I liked about this guitar are the looks of it.

Wait until you can afford some midrange guitar, sell your epi, and get something that feels and sound right. If you're lucky like I was, you'll be able to resell your guitar for 3/4 of its original price assuming you got it cheap. On the other hand, you wouldn't get much for your mods.

EDIT: DAMN NECRO -.- ...
Yamaha SG 800
Tokai USG 118s
Hughes&Kettner Tube Meister
Jet City JCA12XS
Laney Cub 10
Electro Harmonix Big Muff pi (tone/wicker)
Boss CH-1 Super Chorus
Guild D 125 CE <3
Last edited by Doogy-Style at Jan 2, 2011,
#40
The answer to the question about buying a"good"guitar is. When you can afford it. There is nothing wrong with starting out on a Gibson Les Paul if you have the money to buy it. People that say you have to be a skill level X to play guitar Y are just jealous they can not afford that guitar.
Bhaok

The following statement is true. The proceeding statement is false.
Page 1 of 2