#1
Ok so I've almost finished learning all the positions of the minor scale to solo with it all over the fretboard, as I was learning that I also learned how to create scales/chords and what not so what I'm wondering is:

Do a lot of you skip the patterns thing entirely and just learn the notes on your fretboard and then just play the right notes based on the scale?

And generally do you guys think learning the patterns would be useful so you don't need to stop and think "ok this is G# it is in the scale" it would just "come to you", or if you practice enough going solely off the notes in the scale will that itself start to just click?

Thanks.
#2
I personally use patterns to help me know where I am, but when you are using the patterns, don't let that restrict where you can play and where you can't, a lot of people I know end up doing that, after learning a few patterns, they don't think they can leave them.
Quote by leg end

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Violets are bitchin'
Goddammit woman,
get back in the kitchen"
#3
I'm all for using patterns but it's still important to know what exactly it is you're playing, and not just a box.
#5
Quote by -TM-
Ok so I've almost finished learning all the positions of the minor scale to solo with it all over the fretboard, as I was learning that I also learned how to create scales/chords and what not so what I'm wondering is:

Do a lot of you skip the patterns thing entirely and just learn the notes on your fretboard and then just play the right notes based on the scale?


Well it's a pattern either way. One is a visual representation of the other. I see no benefit in ignoring them but I see alot of benefit in utilizing them to your advantage.
Quote by -TM-

And generally do you guys think learning the patterns would be useful


The ability to recognizing the patterns chords and scales make on your guitar is definitely a useful thing. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

a broad perspective is always a good thing. Recognizing these shapes adds to your perspective. It gives you one more thing to attach and give meaning to sound.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 28, 2010,
#6
Quote by -TM-
Ok so I've almost finished learning all the positions of the minor scale to solo with it all over the fretboard, as I was learning that I also learned how to create scales/chords and what not so what I'm wondering is:

Do a lot of you skip the patterns thing entirely and just learn the notes on your fretboard and then just play the right notes based on the scale?

And generally do you guys think learning the patterns would be useful so you don't need to stop and think "ok this is G# it is in the scale" it would just "come to you", or if you practice enough going solely off the notes in the scale will that itself start to just click?

Thanks.

If you simply concentrate on the notes and intervals then you'll learn the patterns by default - it's not like they're something you can avoid, they're simply "there". If you want to locate the notes of a scale on the guitar they're going to form a pattern, it's unavoidable.

Conversely though, if you just learn patterns without learning the notes the patterns alone won't teach them...you're still going to have to find out what they are at some point further down the line.

It's not a either/or choice to make, or even a choice at all. Scales ARE notes and intervals, not shapes, if you want to learn and understand them then that's what you need to study. If you want to use scales and find them on the guitar, that's where patterns come into it.

Of course that means it's perfectly possible to use a scale without really understanding anything about it - it really is up to you at the end of the day but as far as I'm concerned there's only one sensible way to approach it.
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#7
I think both are important. The patterns are great to know where you are on the neck, but you do need to know what notes you are playing. This is how I "did it":

Played guitar and learned the patterns; major scale, chords, arps etc.
Then I went back, and from reading music I picked up the notes, so the bridge in between kind of appeared.

Now for more complicated things (minor scales, complex chords / arpeggios) I focus on the notes, because the patterns aren't very "easy" or "box" shaped.

Both are important, but you can't really say one is more so than the other. Do patterns to get immediate results. Spend lot of time on the notes, but get a thorough knowledge of the fretboard and it's uses. Your choice
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#8
I never actually learned patterns, I just learned how the scales were constructed, and then the recognition of patterns was just natural.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#9
Quote by food1010
I never actually learned patterns, I just learned how the scales were constructed, and then the recognition of patterns was just natural.


You're still playing patterns so I don't know what you're trying to say.
#10
Quote by Pillo114
You're still playing patterns so I don't know what you're trying to say.
I never said I wasn't

What I was trying to say is I think it's pointless to memorize patterns for the sake of memorizing patterns when you can learn about the scale works, and thus familiarize yourself with the patterns through learning about the scale.

I'll say this about virtually anything in music (that it's not worth memorizing for simply the sake of memorizing), except for the very basics of course, like the musical alphabet and the open strings.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#11
Quote by Pillo114
You're still playing patterns so I don't know what you're trying to say.


He's saying that he never looked up a scale box to memorize or anything. Because he learned how scales were formed and all of that good stuff, he was able to make up his own patterns based on his own knowledge.
#12
I meant you still have to learn the actual notes, learning how to construct scales and chords while essential, is only the beginning.
#13
Quote by Pillo114
I meant you still have to learn the actual notes, learning how to construct scales and chords while essential, is only the beginning.


I think were talking more about different positions on the fretboard, and boxes and stuff like that, not notes and constructing scales, but I guess that could be considered a pattern too.
Quote by leg end

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Violets are bitchin'
Goddammit woman,
get back in the kitchen"
#14
Quote by sites.nick
I think were talking more about different positions on the fretboard, and boxes and stuff like that, not notes and constructing scales, but I guess that could be considered a pattern too.


notes and scale construction is by far more important and beneficial to a guitarist than fretboard positions. if you limit yourself to only learn positions, you are at a severe handicap. if you understand notes and scale construction, you will be able to form patterns -- perhaps better so since you will not be limited to what you find from columns and lessons.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#15
^ I totally agree, but if you use the fretboard positions with the notes and scale construction, you will be able to learn a lot quicker, but don't focus quite so much on the positions or you could get stuck.
Quote by leg end

"Roses are red,
Violets are bitchin'
Goddammit woman,
get back in the kitchen"
#16
ALWAYS focus on the notes. You will, as you keep practicing, begin to notice patterns but it is vital to know what it is exactly that you are playing.
Duke Ellington - If it sounds good, it is good.
#17
Quote by sites.nick
^ I totally agree, but if you use the fretboard positions with the notes and scale construction, you will be able to learn a lot quicker, but don't focus quite so much on the positions or you could get stuck.


yeah, i agree. but you don't even need to focus on the patterns. if you focus on the notes, the patterns will come in time. honestly, your brain would have to be functioning at bare minimum for you not to recognize patterns once you know the notes.

but yeah, either way is fine, so long as you do not focus SOLELY on the positions.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#18
Quote by AeolianWolf
notes and scale construction is by far more important and beneficial to a guitarist than fretboard positions. if you limit yourself to only learn positions, you are at a severe handicap. if you understand notes and scale construction, you will be able to form patterns -- perhaps better so since you will not be limited to what you find from columns and lessons.


If were going to rate things in terms of importance, Im going to say the ability to listen is above all else.

personally though I see no benefit to a perspective that views one valuable tool as being better than another. it might be useful if you want to argue for the sake of arguing.... but other than that..... not much use.

No offense btw, its just I see that over and over here (not just from you), and personally I think it does more harm than good.

All information is useful. it's how we take it in and utilize that is good or bad..... and there is alot of leeway there because we all have our own goals.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 28, 2010,
#19
i like to just make my own patterns ... and if they don't sound good at first i just play with it ... and always remember all my root notes are if im wanting the pattern to go up or down in pitches
#20
Quote by GuitarMunky
If were going to rate things in terms of importance, Im going to say the ability to listen is above all else.


i agree.

Quote by GuitarMunky
No offense btw, its just I see that over and over here (not just from you), and personally I think it does more harm than good.


i disagree. it is better to understand than to memorize.

i'm not saying "don't learn patterns". hell, you find me five guitarists that don't use patterns and i'll be dumbfounded. what i am saying that learning only patterns without understand them or understanding the notes therein is the bare minimum. it's like knowing nothing but a few words and phrases to get you by in a foreign language. you can get by, but you're hardly fluent.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Last edited by AeolianWolf at Jun 28, 2010,
#21
Quote by AeolianWolf



i disagree. it is better to understand than to memorize.



Learning the patterns reinforces your understanding.

Thats why I say there is no need for this attitude of "this is better than that". it serves no positive purpose, and evidence of the misconceptions it spreads can be found in the OP.


Also, when you say "it is better to understand than to memorize" you have to realize that memorizing is often a part of the process of understanding.

So while I agree that knowing the notes on your chosen instrument and learning theory is good, I don't agree that there is need to downplay the usefulness of "patterns" or any other piece of information.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 28, 2010,
#22
ok guys i haven't focused at all on other players patterns yet... any that i should start with?
and shouldn't the patterns be passed on the backing (ie.. if im playing a am slowish backing track... should i look up am scale patterns or even more in depth and find the chords that the am track uses and then find a pattern that corresponds with all of it?)
#23
Quote by elihu4321
ok guys i haven't focused at all on other players patterns yet... any that i should start with?
and shouldn't the patterns be passed on the backing (ie.. if im playing a am slowish backing track... should i look up am scale patterns or even more in depth and find the chords that the am track uses and then find a pattern that corresponds with all of it?)


I would suggest this.

learn a solo.... learn the patterns used in that solo
this should go without saying but...... memorize the solo..... PLAY it... (don't just read it off tab) and ofcourse always listen.

do this alot, and get familiar with the commonly used scales.


As you're doing that (Im talking months and years of practice)..... you can prepare yourself to learn theory.... for starters learn how to read standard notation... and become familiar with the fundamentals.

When you have some experience reading music, and can play a decent amount of music on your guitar..... then get into theory. (which is where you'll learn about the chord progressions.... keys.... what scale is appropriate....ect)

^ this is all meant to take place over years. I can't give you a detailed guide in 1 thread.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jun 28, 2010,
#24
Quote by GuitarMunky
I don't agree that there is need to downplay the usefulness of "patterns" or any other piece of information.


Quote by AeolianWolf
i'm not saying "don't learn patterns".


makes me think you're missing my point entirely. you're disagreeing with an idea that i went out of my way not to suggest.

Quote by GuitarMunky
Learning the patterns reinforces your understanding.


right, but what i'm talking about is starting from scratch. just because you learn the patterns does not mean you understand them.

again, it is better to understand than to memorize. i would count "memorization as preparation for understanding" as "understanding", because the effort is being made to understand the patterns. when i say memorize, i mean people who learn patterns and have no idea what notes are contained within nor how to use them.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#25
when you say patterns do you mean just observe what they do, ie. follow chord progression and how they add emotion to the notes or are there actual pattern of notes guitarist use... isn't that kinda cheating??
and to the detailed guide i'll pass thanks tho i just don't think i want to get that into it...
well guitar monkey i would like to see what you would say anyway (as i may leave out a step on my own) and im sure others would use it 2 ... if you make the thread tell me what it is .. thanks

i am familar with the pentatonic scales and the minor really well.... the major im working on ... and the dorian will be next

as for chord progressions i feel like im ready to learn all i can there.. and will start by the end of this week.(any websites or info you want to share)
Last edited by elihu4321 at Jun 28, 2010,
#26
It's important to understand that the shapes will influence your fingering. Finding shapes that are most useful to you is fine, but you definitely should know the notes.
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#27
to jump in to Guitarmonkey and wolf's convo .... i would add one needs to look at patterns (if they are what i think they are) when you feel comfortable with the scales.... so you can know what scale the pattern came from... other than that and the use of their intervals what else do you have to understand?
#28
Quote by AeolianWolf
makes me think you're missing my point entirely. you're disagreeing with an idea that i went out of my way not to suggest.


right, but what i'm talking about is starting from scratch. just because you learn the patterns does not mean you understand them.
.


Just because you memorize the notes on the neck and a scale formula doesn't mean you understand them either.

True understanding comes with the context.
shred is gaudy music
#29
Quote by GuitarMunky
Just because you memorize the notes on the neck and a scale formula doesn't mean you understand them either.

True understanding comes with the context.


that's what i consider memorization, though. because you're memorizing the fretboard and a scale formula without actually applying it anywhere. all theory concepts whatsoever are useless without some form of application.

but i absolutely agree with you that true understanding comes with context.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#30
Quote by elihu4321
to jump in to Guitarmonkey and wolf's convo .... i would add one needs to look at patterns (if they are what i think they are) when you feel comfortable with the scales.... so you can know what scale the pattern came from... other than that and the use of their intervals what else do you have to understand?


The patterns we're all talking about are pretty much shapes on the fretboard that you use to learn scales, not how you play them.
Quote by leg end

"Roses are red,
Violets are bitchin'
Goddammit woman,
get back in the kitchen"
#31
so instead of patterns shouldn't you say Positions like box positions .... cause i think patterns are how some artist make use of their scales like the interval changes would be patterns...
#32
It works either way, but you usually don't memorize how other people play different patterns, you usually make up your own.
Quote by leg end

"Roses are red,
Violets are bitchin'
Goddammit woman,
get back in the kitchen"
#33
Quote by elihu4321
i like to just make my own patterns ... and if they don't sound good at first i just play with it ... and always remember all my root notes are if im wanting the pattern to go up or down in pitches

thats why i posted this first... in my guitar mags it talks about patterns and its just drills (with the notes of the scale) that they or someone made to try to show you the interval steps that some of the greats make...
i just got confused on the wording...