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#1
And by music store I mean instruments (guitar+bass and drums to start).
However their is one other store in my city and they control the largest of the brands eg. Gibson, Fender, Marshall and Mesa, Not to mention Ibanez and Peavey.
Anyways I suppose since I cannot rely on the some of the more popular brand names to make my store stand out it will have to be customer service and hopefully something new and more enjoyable for musicians in my store.
Thats where I could use some advice What have you always enjoyed about your favorite music stores and where have others fallen short for you Pit-dwellers??

EDIT

Since your all being so generous with info. Maybe one of you could be of some amazing help. Its very hard to find marketing info for my area I.E #of guitars/amps sold in the area for 2009, strings etc. If anyone can help find me marketing info or even put me in touch with someone who knows I would forever be in your debt. Please PM me if you think you can help. Also I am in Canada, Alberta to be more specific.

Brought from The pit to GG&A
#2
Customer service-wise it's really great when you go into a guitar store asking for advice and you get it, as opposed to the staff just trying to sell you stuff. When they really take the time to listen and advise you on your best move, whether that means buying something or not. That's the kind of service you come back for.
#3
I like a store that has obscure brand instruments and gear. Why try to be like almost every other music shop in the world with only the big brand stuff? If you get a lot of good but predominantly unknown or hard to find things then a lot of people that are serious about music, or are just plain gearheads, will make a point of going to your store.
#4
Quote by jfreyvogel
I like a store that has obscure brand instruments and gear. Why try to be like almost every other music shop in the world with only the big brand stuff? If you get a lot of good but predominantly unknown or hard to find things then a lot of people that are serious about music, or are just plain gearheads, will make a point of going to your store.


That's a small demographic.
Quote by rmr024
Well, in California, people carry around devices that control the minds of bears. So expect to see people walking their bears.

Also, don't be surprised if some robot hookers try to solicit sex to you on the streets.
#5
Well, I like that employees know what the hell they're selling and their specs, their specs, beacuse it's very annoying when I want to compare gear, and I go to the store and the guy doesn't know what I ask them... so i have to google almost all of that.
A variety of brands too, maybe not the most popular, but some variety to try.
#6
sell online as well as in store ebay and craigslist are great ways for you to start making profit.
Offer price matching even if you make less profit or lose money you will make repeat customers since they dont feel like they are getting raped for that peace of gear they want. Id also say sell cds and music clothing too. that way you can make some small sales and not have to relie on making the big one for the month to meet bills.
*lust list*
Vox tone lab
Vox ac50
satchurator
satches time machine
vintage phase 90
Money towards this gear = $0.00

Quote by Doctor Matthews
Yeah I dreamt I was fighting Master Hand, but then I woke up to realize I was jackin' it in my sleep.
#7
I like a store that has obscure brand instruments and gear. Why try to be like almost every other music shop in the world with only the big brand stuff? If you get a lot of good but predominantly unknown or hard to find things then a lot of people that are serious about music, or are just plain gearheads, will make a point of going to your store.


Its not so much that I want these brands because their well known, But because they are well known they help the store itself! If i thought bringing in diezel's and vintage tubes stored in cold war bomb shelters would work I would do it.
But It is necessary to cater to what the public believes is popular in the industry as much as it is to cater to those tone hungry gear addicts.
#8
This one's easy, considering I have a self-imposed ban on going to Guitar Center.

1. Accessories. Stock enough of the quality strings and have them in stock! (im talking to you Guitar Center!).

2. Guitars / Amps. I find a lot of people buy amps like Marshall MGs, Vypyr, and Line 6 due to low price and onboard effects. What I dont see at any of the guitar stores are mid range, low watt amps that are accessible to the average kid noodling around in store. If you put an MG next to a 5watt valve amp with a reverb or delay hooked up to it, the contrast would be remarkable. Show people that they can spend a few extra bucks to get a better tone instead of piling 100W heads everywhere with 4x12 cabs. It wouldnt hurt to carry Ernie Ball guitars either!

3. Service. Offer free basic setups or on the cheap. I would love to see someone offer to set my guitar up (intonation and action) at no additional cost when making a string purchase or buying a guitar. A good setup is worth its $ however no one wants to spend $60 just to get the action right on an electric. cater towards your people as individuals and less on the warranty sales.

4. Invite local bands to play instore on the weekends. Will attract a crowd and a more friendly, communal atmosphere..
Gear

EB MusicMan JP6 - Pearl White
Gibson LP Studio - Silverburst
Schecter C-1 Classic - Quilted Blue
Schecter Banshee (x2) - Marine Blue
Taylor GS-Mini
Blackstar HT-5 Mini Half Stack
Line 6 HD500
#9
Don't be a grumpy old man.
Seriously, there's a bunch of small music stores in my area and they're all super unfriendly. Soooooo... Be friendly. And know what you're talking about.

Edit: Ljk825- you, sir, are a genius.
Last edited by mdawg24 at Jun 28, 2010,
#10
Quote by SLonergan
That's a small demographic.

I suppose it depends on the area. I live in Boston and there is Berklee right here, so it is actually a pretty large demographic. I didn't really think about different areas.

Anyway, get a good website made - that actually shows what you carry. So many stores don't have this.
Last edited by jfreyvogel at Jun 28, 2010,
#11
Quote by jfreyvogel
I suppose it depends on the area. I live in Boston and there is Berklee right here, so it is actually a pretty large demographic. I didn't really think about different areas.

Anyway, get a good website made - that actually shows what you carry. So many stores don't have this.


Well yeah, guitar freaks are coming from all over the world to that area...obscure gear would sell quite well there.
Quote by rmr024
Well, in California, people carry around devices that control the minds of bears. So expect to see people walking their bears.

Also, don't be surprised if some robot hookers try to solicit sex to you on the streets.
#12
There is a store near me where I like going for one main reason, the employees are friendly and when you ask to try something they don't look like it's a pain in their ass, they are happy of showing you something.
At other places, when I try something, the only thing I'm being told is don't turn up too loud.
The other day I was trying an amp at that store, the seller just walked by and turned master volume to 10 to show how it sounds cranked. When I try a pedal, they'll just start tweaking it while I play to show me nice settings.
And the guys working there are complete gearheads and I trust their advices, and I don't feel like I'm bothering anybody while trying stuff, and I don't feel presssured to buy stuff, and it could go on like this, I'm actually having a good time when I go there.
So my point is, if you can give your customers a good time when come to your shop, you won.
#13
^ exactly.

of course the shop like that here shut
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#14
Quote by Toqueface
And by music store I mean instruments (guitar+bass and drums to start).
However their is one other store in my city and they control the largest of the brands eg. Gibson, Fender, Marshall and Mesa, Not to mention Ibanez and Peavey.
Anyways I suppose since I cannot rely on the some of the more popular brand names to make my store stand out it will have to be customer service and hopefully something new and more enjoyable for musicians in my store.
Thats where I could use some advice What have you always enjoyed about your favorite music stores and where have others fallen short for you Pit-dwellers??

EDIT

Since your all being so generous with info. Maybe one of you could be of some amazing help. Its very hard to find marketing info for my area I.E #of guitars/amps sold in the area for 2009, strings etc. If anyone can help find me marketing info or even put me in touch with someone who knows I would forever be in your debt. Please PM me if you think you can help. Also I am in Canada, Alberta to be more specific.

Brought from The pit to GG&A


You're in Alberta? Me too! Lol, we've only got one music store here though, not many popular brands, all off brand stuff except cymbals, some ernie ball strings, drumsticks, etc. The only reason I go there for my stuff and not Edmonton (I live in Wetaskiwin) is because the guy is always so nice. Great service and he'll always strike conversation with you.

I'm happy with paying $12 a pack for strings, because the guy is just so nice to everyone. Out of curiosity, where are you opening up?
CALL ME JOHN

MARSHALL JCM 2000 Amp head/Cab
White Synyster Custom 1/100
Rest of my rig on my profile!


Don't acknowledge right, just dwell on...


...Wrong.



This spot in Hell...


...Is where I belong
#15
You're in Alberta? Me too! Lol, we've only got one music store here though, not many popular brands, all off brand stuff except cymbals, some ernie ball strings, drumsticks, etc. The only reason I go there for my stuff and not Edmonton (I live in Wetaskiwin) is because the guy is always so nice. Great service and he'll always strike conversation with you.

I'm happy with paying $12 a pack for strings, because the guy is just so nice to everyone. Out of curiosity, where are you opening up?


Red Deer haha nice to see another Albertan! I wouldn't look for my shop anytime drastically soon You could say posting these threads is just a bit of market research. Also im pretty nice maybe you should drive here for strings
#16
Well, Guitar Center/SamAsh rarely carry boutique stuff which is quite aggravating. It's a pain trying to find a local Bare-Knuckle Pickups dealer. If I found a local store that sold them I'd probably buy everything from there out of gratitude for their existance.

I always took issue with the way that Guitar Center and Sam Ash didn't sell a lot of the stranger/rarer things I wanted. Hand-Wound pickups, small-name hand made guitars, small-name hand made amplifiers. KITS (guitar and amp--I always wondered why these are only available online). Specifically, a lot of European brand stuff that's hard to find in North America. A store that carried all those harder to find things and that shipped all over North America could be a good business.

As for stranger things--why can't I find any stores that carry boxes of 8s? I always hated buying a pack of strings at a time. I know that 8s aren't used very often, but I like them for twanging up a twangless guitar.

Big stores rarely sell replacement bodies/necks. Also things that you'd usually have to buy online--fret wire, exotic and unorthodox pickguards... Wish more stores carried them.
Last edited by Seref at Jun 28, 2010,
#17
I always took issue with the way that Guitar Center and Sam Ash didn't sell a lot of the stranger/rarer things I wanted. Hand-Wound pickups, small-name hand made guitars, small-name hand made amplifiers. KITS (guitar and amp--I always wondered why these are only available online). Specifically, a lot of European brand stuff that's hard to find in North America. A store that carried all those harder to find things and that shipped all over North America could be a good business.


Are you saying you would pay a premium for european goods previously unobtainable in North America? and if you would would anybody else here?
#18
Quote by Toqueface
Are you saying you would pay a premium for european goods previously unobtainable in North America? and if you would would anybody else here?

Definitely. Amps and effects especially. Whenever I go to a store I pretty much expect to be disappointed because they never have anything I'm looking for.
#19
Make sure to order products people want. It took my local store months to get my picks in (tortex 1.14). I was about to order a few dozen online when I actually saw them restocked! I was like "ZOMG YOU GOTZ MAH PICKS!" and the guy running the drum section gives the bass guy a look like "this is how you stay in business, dumbass"

Seriously, cater to your customers. Even if its a 12 year old kid that doesn't know what he wants, or a seasoned pro just browsing before he makes the same exact purchase he made last week. Everyone is looking for a different level of salesman/customer relationship. You need to find that level, and then go in guna a blazin'!
"If you're looking for me,
you better check under the sea,
because that's where you'll find me..."
#20
Quote by Toqueface
Are you saying you would pay a premium for european goods previously unobtainable in North America? and if you would would anybody else here?


Well there's always going to be a premium associated with buying smaller-name European stuff in NA. That's unavoidable. Point is that I'd actually pay for it if I could get it. I used BKP as an example because it's a good one. Very few North American stores carry a full (or large) selection of BKPs and barely any of them have online stores/ship everywhere, yet the demand for them is probably high enough to warrant a place that sells them readily. I'd definitely pay a premium (as long as it's reasonable) if I could get BKPs easily in the States.
Last edited by Seref at Jun 28, 2010,
#21
Are their any other brands you guys would like to suggest ? It would be of grand help not only if i can provide products more involved musicians want but also because as I stated their are some more common brands that are pretty much off limits for me (for now).
#22
Now I'm no professional, but these are just my suggestions as to what brands would give you the most well-rounded selection of gear.

First off, you're going to want a company that makes good starter guitars, as there are almost always newbies looking for their first guitar in any music store. So if you want a good starter brand, there's a company called Vintage that makes excellent copies of Fenders and Gibsons for reasonable prices. Also they have a great reputation for being high quality for the price.

Now for the guys who walk in that want more expensive, professional guitars, you'll probably want a brand like Gretsch, because I know that I've never heard of anyone who doesn't like a Gretsch. And there's nothing like walking into a music store and just playing all the different Gretsches. And I have many friends who can back me up on that.

Also, there's a newer company called Hanson Guitars based out of Chicago that make really nice, fairly affordable workhorse guitars. They're all original models, and they're really great. I think they're looking for exposure too, so it would be a good deal for both of you guys.

Finally, for the metalheads, you might want a brand like ESP or Jackson. I don't really know because I'm no metalhead, but I think ESP/LTD is a respected brand in the metal community.

Also, for pedals you're probably going to want at least one of these brands: Boss, Digitech, MXR or Electro-Harmonix. They're probably some of the biggest FX brands out there today.

So yeah, those are my main suggestions. Like I said before, I'm no pro at this, but I think that pretty much covers all the bases. Except acoustics. I dunno, maybe Taylor or Martin or something. Anyway, I wish you all the best in starting your music store.

EDIT: Also, Hagstrom if you can. Those Swedes make some great guitars.

EDIT #2: Wait, you're Albertan? Dude, I'm from Edmonton! Nice to see yet another Albertan here.
Quote by Kensai
Hipster.


I have a name. It is Mitch.
Last edited by gbgg9409 at Jun 28, 2010,
#23
If you're planning on staying in business you're going to want to at least carry the craptacular SS practice amps (Spider, Vypyr, Cube, MG, VT) as that's what moms buying amps for their kids are going to buy.

As for "involved musicians," upscale boutique stuff is nice. Splawn. Wizard. Soldano. Also nicer low-wattage amps are hot merchandise. Most guitarists like a small apartment/studio amps. Dr Z. Mack. 65 Amps. That kind of thing.

If you know any gearheads good with a soldering iron you could also mod amps/guitars in-store. Seasoned musicians like having their gear spruced up to their specs.
#25
Quote by Seref
If you're planning on staying in business you're going to want to at least carry the craptacular SS practice amps (Spider, Vypyr, Cube, MG, VT) as that's what moms buying amps for their kids are going to buy.

As for "involved musicians," upscale boutique stuff is nice. Splawn. Wizard. Soldano. Also nicer low-wattage amps are hot merchandise. Most guitarists like a small apartment/studio amps. Dr Z. Mack. 65 Amps. That kind of thing.

If you know any gearheads good with a soldering iron you could also mod amps/guitars in-store. Seasoned musicians like having their gear spruced up to their specs.


I really think you should narrow your range of customers rather than trying to please everyone. So if you want to go high-end and boutique stuff, then don't sell crappy stuff.
#26
If you know any gearheads good with a soldering iron you could also mod amps/guitars in-store. Seasoned musicians like having their gear spruced up to their specs.


Thats part of my plan actually I do piece work with the local tech right now anyways. Id love to have some modded guitars and amps on the shelf.

If you want to know what effects pedals you should look into getting (in terms of higher end stuff) head over to the ilovefuzz.com forum. Everything you could possibly want to know.


Thanks for the link and I would also point out that to guys looking to sell their own boutique gear and need a distributor id be glad if we could help each other! Ill be trying to get a website going sooner rather than later. But Im still building up my distributors and brand names that I can deal with.
#27
Quote by Toqueface
Thanks for the link and I would also point out that to guys looking to sell their own boutique gear and need a distributor id be glad if we could help each other! Ill be trying to get a website going sooner rather than later. But Im still building up my distributors and brand names that I can deal with.

If I ever get around to turning the big pile of parts in my closet into some pedals I'll let you know
#28
You could even sell some of the stuff online too, its on a website, someone pays shipping, and there you go a completely legit purchase.
"If you're looking for me,
you better check under the sea,
because that's where you'll find me..."
#29
You should always keep at least one left handed guitar in stock, I hate stores that don't have any.
#30
One thing - let the people try guitars on their own time.
I've been to stores where as soon as I grab a guitar, the workers are like "are you gonna buy that?"

On top of that, let people try any guitar they like - theres a local store that has Please Ask Before Trying and it sorta puts me off and it gives the impression that they expect you to buy this guitar straight away, yes I know its because theyre expensive, but perhaps leave a sign near the more expensive guitars saying "PLEASE TAKE CARE" and stuff like that.
#31
Don't stock Bugeras if you value the structural integrity of your store...


Sorry could not resist
#32
Quote by Dave_Mc
^ exactly.

of course the shop like that here shut



we just lost a shop like that too.

i have no idea how a shop could stay in business right now.

the only one i know that's making enough money to stay in business,
is the one that primarily sells MUSIC LESSONS.

he's got like 4 rooms in the back, rents them out to teachers,
and secondarily sells gear to those students.

additional funds from shoddy tech work.
the tech side of it got better this year when he outsourced to a real tech,
and stopped using local kids.

so basically, he's renting rooms and pushing starter gear (including wind instrument rentals) on the moms.

oh yeah he also takes in the occasional used gear from local kids.
he'll put a used guitar up on the wall. if he sells it, he takes $50 from the profit.
if it doesnt sell, he takes it down after a while.
Jenneh

Quote by TNfootballfan62
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Set up Questions? ...Q & A Thread

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Last edited by jj1565 at Jun 28, 2010,
#33
I think it's best to sell affordable, yet quality products that outperform the standard accessories, and keep them side by side with the rival product.

Smaller brands, stuff that just has high quality work. When a buyer asks for the inferior quality item, try and steer him to toward the better product. Of course, this means that the better product should have a good price.
I'm always grateful to learn about better products that I may not have heard of before.

Stock these lesser known things. Traynor amps should be a big thing in your store, I think, being that you're in Canada.
#34
You'll need to research minimum purchases from whichever manufacturers you want to carry too. My friend owns a smallish music store near me(Southwestern NY) and gets discouraged by some manufacturer minimums. He had to quit carrying a couple lines because he had to purchase X amount of dollars every year. If he didn't meet minimums he was no longer allowed to carry the line. One thing he does is buy used instruments fairly cheap from customers. He is up front and honest with them as far as the value and goes as far as to tell them they could probably get more online or in the paper. Most people don't want to deal with it though so they take his offer. Good luck. I hope it works out for you.
#35
Price matching and cost of setups.

Theres this local store called collins. They dont have a big selection of guitars or amps. I go there because they have strings, cheap setups, and will match prices on bigger buys. I bought a fender acoustic and they matched Musicians friend prices. I bought an rp500 and they matched the price. I did pay $5 more then musicians friend pricing twice on Ernie ball strap locks. I over pay on strings and other little things too, but its a great store and they setup and clean guitars for like $20 so its a great store. Also great employees that are knowledgeable and who are active musicians helps. Iv even jammed with one of the guys in the store. It was great
Gibson Les Paul Traditional - 11
Fender Stratocaster MIM - 04
Fender Mustang - 04
Taylor 214ce - 10
Last edited by teamhex at Jun 28, 2010,
#36
Quote by jj1565
we just lost a shop like that too.

i have no idea how a shop could stay in business right now.


yeah

Quote by forsaknazrael
I think it's best to sell affordable, yet quality products that outperform the standard accessories, and keep them side by side with the rival product.

Smaller brands, stuff that just has high quality work. When a buyer asks for the inferior quality item, try and steer him to toward the better product. Of course, this means that the better product should have a good price.
I'm always grateful to learn about better products that I may not have heard of before.

Stock these lesser known things. Traynor amps should be a big thing in your store, I think, being that you're in Canada.


+1

having the alternative right next to "the real thing" is definitely a great idea. That shop here that closed had tokais and gibsons and fenders right next to each other on the wall. Now, there's only so much you can do, some people are unsaveable (such as the chap who refused point-blank to even try one of those MIJ tokais, because it was only a knock-off and didn't say les paul on the headstock, and then proceeded to check out the cheapest epiphones o_O), but at least you tried.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#37
Some really good advice given here, I'm not going to waste your time repeating it.

1)The customer service thing is big. Having someone who is working to help get what you want, rather than trying to sell stuff to you, is a huge plus. That will keep people coming back.

2)There is a difference between beginner gear and junk gear. In my experience, most big music stores try to sell junk gear to beginners. There is no reason anyone should be encouraged to buy a line 6 spider.

3) Yes gear is subjective. But IMO, there are (with a fair few exceptions) a finite number of requests/needs. They are usually, I play metal and need a good high gain amp, I play blues, and I play classic rock. I try as much gear as I can, and over the years I've figured out my go-to amps for each request. So when a friend needs help (or I'm nosing around UG) I can usually pull up a list of gear that would be perfect for them. What I'm saying is, make sure you have some solid options for the most common requests, and you will be able to satisfy most of the people that wander in.

4) Make sure you have a good used section. This is invaluable.

5) Put a solid contact sheet together. If you don't offer repairs, be able to recommend a crack tech. If someone needs a hard case, know a solid, affordable company. These kinds of business contacts are frequently overlooked, but can give you an edge against your competition. When I go into a store and they say "sorry, can't help you," then they can't help me and I go somewhere else in the future
#38
^ definitely agreed about the beginner/junk gear, and the contacts. great points. also about the couple of different main types of music that most people want.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#39
You’re going about this entirely wrong-headedly. Asking a bunch of random internet people how a guy in Alberta can compete with bigger music stores is going to give you a bunch of random ideas that will leave with with a random store and probably a randomly huge amount of crushing debt and eventual bankruptcy. If actually want to start a business with a future you need to go talk to all of the local musicians and find out what you can do that will realistically bring them to your store. You need to either find a massive hole in current offerings—and boutique gear doesn’t count, that’s why it’s called boutique—or find a way to undercut current offerings. Otherwise you’re just another lonely retailer in a low-rent strip mall dodging phone calls from banks.
#40
Quote by jpnyc
You’re going about this entirely wrong-headedly. Asking a bunch of random internet people how a guy in Alberta can compete with bigger music stores is going to give you a bunch of random ideas that will leave with with a random store and probably a randomly huge amount of crushing debt and eventual bankruptcy. If actually want to start a business with a future you need to go talk to all of the local musicians and find out what you can do that will realistically bring them to your store. You need to either find a massive hole in current offerings—and boutique gear doesn’t count, that’s why it’s called boutique—or find a way to undercut current offerings. Otherwise you’re just another lonely retailer in a low-rent strip mall dodging phone calls from banks.

good point but i disagree.

Gigging musicians are just one section of the market for him. If anything, the more profitable market segment would be older hobbyists with a lot more disposable income. There are also the people just starting out who can easily spend 500 to a grand even if you never see them again.

TS, don't even try competing with a big retail store, you don't have the resources to win so you have to offer the products and services they can't.

Also, you have no idea how much friendliness and casual conversation helps. Be at your store personally, learn names, be at the counter or noodling on a guitar and even throw some small unofficial discounts for repeat customers. Even if they just need something small like strings will make sure that when they need something, they'll come to you.

Another protip: NEVER come across as a businessman, it puts people off. When people come in just talk about random stuff and encourage them to try shit out.
Chelsea FC



Quote by Blues Hippie
As for the swim team member that drowned, it just means the swim team just got a lot better. Same with him too, it's time to move on, the weakest link is gone...
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