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#1
This question often comes to my mind often and would very much like to get it resolved so i can just forget it..
i am wondering if everything for music theory already been wrote or discovered.... like do we know all we can about music theory?
one example- i know how the major scale is derived from the chromatic scale and the different modes (phrygian, Aeolian, etc) are derived from the major scale.
And just 3 mins ago it clicked that the chord identification for the major scale (major/minor/Dim chords) moves along with the different modes. (correct me if i am wrong)
but i wonder... can we derive anything from the different modes??
ie. with the minor scale (Aeolian mode) can we make patterns of intervals and come up with a newish sounding scale?? or will it end up being a different mode?
do you have the idea of where i am going with the subject?? if not i will try again
#2
All it takes is reading one thread about modes here to realize that not everything is finalized...

Of course, we are still talking about possible variations of just 11 notes, so most of the work has been done.
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
#3
Well considering most music theory we know is just based on the chosen frequencies we assigned to the 12 tone scale we use, then I'd have to say HELL NO.

For example, look up the Non-Pythagorean Scale and other such systems. They'll blow your mind.
#4
Here is my thought to that: There may be more, but (as far as I know), the only musical theory created in the modern era (think like 50's onward) is the pitch-axis theory, and I think Satriani came up with it. Other than that, I don't think anything has been discovered. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
#5
oh shtt man i don't know if i can handle my mind being blown... it's taking a lot of information in this week.... but im checking it out now so thanks...
#6
Definitely not. There are MANY things we can do. There are other systems out there that music theory is being developed for individually by maybe one person, or even a group of people. Things like 19-TET, or 18-TET or anything like that, for example (for reference, we use 12-TET).

We can't derive modes from the Natural Minor scale cause we'd just be repeating the same things we got from the major scale (remember, it's all a big circle back to Ionian). But we can derive modes from the Harmonic/Melodic Minor scales. These differ from the other modes in that the intervals in them are structurally more for melody rather than harmony. They just don't create good harmonies or anything.

To answer your question again... no, we're not done. We've barely tipped the iceberg (cwutididthar?).
#7
Quote by DiminishedFifth
We've barely tipped the iceberg (cwutididthar?).

What does this iceberg specifically represent?
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
#9
Quote by DiminishedFifth
It's a change on the phrase "We've barely hit the tip of the iceberg"

Well, I'm hung up on the notion that we're starting to explore beyond the actual capacities of the human ear and brain. Even talking about 19-TET is kind of redundant for this thread because it has, in fact, been defined.

But at what point does it stop being music and start being noise? We could analyze the frequencies of water dripping from a faucet but does it have any useful application in terms of music, as defined by the human ear?
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
#11
Quote by hockeyplayer168
Well, I'm hung up on the notion that we're starting to explore beyond the actual capacities of the human ear and brain. Even talking about 19-TET is kind of redundant for this thread because it has, in fact, been defined.

Yes, they've been defined. But they're still being refined. Just like our 12-TET system was hundreds of years ago. We have people making the theories for stuff like that. While the system has been made... it hasn't been organized. Things don't work like they do in 12-TET. All the chords would be different. The way the intervals interact would be different. Everything is different. Even the theory part of music theory would be different.

But at what point does it stop being music and start being noise? We could analyze the frequencies of water dripping from a faucet but does it have any useful application in terms of music, as defined by the human ear?

Everything can be used in music. It's all up to the listener. Now... would I listen to a plain water drop? Not at all. But I've heard songs use it effectively. We're getting into that debate that the "Chat" thread got into now about what music is and isn't
#12
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Yes, they've been defined. But they're still being refined. Just like our 12-TET system was hundreds of years ago. We have people making the theories for stuff like that. While the system has been made... it hasn't been organized. Things don't work like they do in 12-TET. All the chords would be different. The way the intervals interact would be different. Everything is different. Even the theory part of music theory would be different.


Everything can be used in music. It's all up to the listener. Now... would I listen to a plain water drop? Not at all. But I've heard songs use it effectively. We're getting into that debate that the "Chat" thread got into now about what music is and isn't

I'm aware of the philosophy that any frequency could be deemed musical, but I don't agree with it. Listening to a non-pythagorean scale is very uncomfortable. Perhaps my ears aren't trained well in that sense but still, it is just incredibly dissonant to the point of uselessness.

Basically, I'm arguing on the side of musical conservatism I suppose. There are days where I'd probably take the other side of the argument though.
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
Last edited by hockeyplayer168 at Jun 29, 2010,
#13
Quote by hockeyplayer168
I'm aware of the philosophy that any frequency could be deemed musical, but I don't agree with it. Listening to a non-pythagorean scale is very uncomfortable. Perhaps my ears aren't trained well in that sense but still, it is just incredibly dissonant to the point of uselessness.

Basically, I'm arguing on the side of musical conservatism I suppose. There are days where I'd probably take the other side of the argument though.

Yeah... I'm not a big fan of Non-Pythagorean scales. I heard one and, while I could hear what I was supposed to, it just sounded REALLY out of tune to me.

I agree... on everything But I know that everything can be used in music, but not everything can be music by itself.
#14
Well theres essentially an infinite number of different systems you could use for music, so it is impossible to know/define everything about every single system. However if you're referring to just our standard 12 tone scale, then while I guess it is essentially possible to define everything about it, its highly unlikely everything has been "discovered" about it.

And about that Non-Pythagorean stuff, it works on logarithms defining the intervals between the frequencies between each pitch, so your guitar would need a very different fret layout and spacing.
#15
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Definitely not. There are MANY things we can do. There are other systems out there that music theory is being developed for individually by maybe one person, or even a group of people. Things like 19-TET, or 18-TET or anything like that, for example (for reference, we use 12-TET).

We can't derive modes from the Natural Minor scale cause we'd just be repeating the same things we got from the major scale (remember, it's all a big circle back to Ionian). But we can derive modes from the Harmonic/Melodic Minor scales. These differ from the other modes in that the intervals in them are structurally more for melody rather than harmony. They just don't create good harmonies or anything.

To answer your question again... no, we're not done. We've barely tipped the iceberg (cwutididthar?).


okay i like where this thread is going... i knew it would go in a circle to ionian again but i was thinking more like instead of whole steps or half steps maybe 2 whole steps or step in a half, perhaps even by 5 steps...
and maybe instead of just applying that to the minor scale... try it with the chromatic (the 12 notes we have)

and the Harmonic/Melodic Minor... nice.... would you just do modes like you do with the major scale... and what about the harmonic/melodic minors chord indemnification be(maj/min/dim-roman numerals) ? -- i would like to see if i can make anything sound good..

the reason i bring this up is when i was looking over all scales and finding one that i enjoyed the most, Aeolian at this point, but while i was playing the scale i wanted like 3 notes to be a little different and it got me thinking a lot about intervals... but yea keep it coming..
#16
So we can agree probably, that there are endless possibilities, mathematically speaking, but what we can actually sense and comprehend on a meaningful level is likely well understood.
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
#17
Quote by elihu4321
okay i like where this thread is going... i knew it would go in a circle to ionian again but i was thinking more like instead of whole steps or half steps maybe 2 whole steps or step in a half, perhaps even by 5 steps...
and maybe instead of just applying that to the minor scale... try it with the chromatic (the 12 notes we have)

Can't do the chromatic because it would STILL be the chromatic scale... the intervals are still the same. If you did 2 whole steps you'd eventually come around to the Whole-Tone Scale. 5 steps? There is Quartal Harmony (as opposed to our Tertian harmony).

and the Harmonic/Melodic Minor... nice.... would you just do modes like you do with the major scale... and what about the harmonic/melodic minors chord indemnification be(maj/min/dim-roman numerals) ? -- i would like to see if i can make anything sound good..

You would write them like you do the major scale... but the chords would need #/b's before the Roman Numeral. The problem with those is they're not harmonious. The way the intervals work makes it very hard to create anything good aside from a melody. A melody and a countermelody could be very good though, now that I think about it...

the reason i bring this up is when i was looking over all scales and finding one that i enjoyed the most, Aeolian at this point, but while i was playing the scale i wanted like 3 notes to be a little different and it got me thinking a lot about intervals... but yea keep it coming..

If you want those 3 notes to be different... change them! No one is stopping you ;]

Quote by hockeyplayer168
So we can agree probably, that there are endless possibilities, mathematically speaking, but what we can actually sense and comprehend on a meaningful level is likely well understood.

Basically.

I do enjoy the (as of now) ambiguity that comes with other equal tempered systems (where's Dodeka? He's the best at this haha). I, honestly, enjoy the 19-TET system. But I can't get it on my guitar, and I haven't delved quite into 12-TET harmony enough in my opinion.
Last edited by DiminishedFifth at Jun 29, 2010,
#18
Quote by mishax92
Well theres essentially an infinite number of different systems you could use for music, so it is impossible to know/define everything about every single system. However if you're referring to just our standard 12 tone scale, then while I guess it is essentially possible to define everything about it, its highly unlikely everything has been "discovered" about it.

And about that Non-Pythagorean stuff, it works on logarithms defining the intervals between the frequencies between each pitch, so your guitar would need a very different fret layout and spacing.

yes i was mainly talking about out 12 tone scale but only because i didn't know we had more... so its fine with me what this thread talks about..
my thoughts on the non pythagorean... i do enjoy how the intervals are farther apart.(or in the begining- i think the intervals change as they go up??)
i have not listened to the water drop things yet tho...
and on one website someone mentioned you would need a fret less guitar..
#19
There is always more....

best not to worry about it IMO.
shred is gaudy music
#20
okay so your question went from general to specific

the answer in my opinion to the specific question (moving around modes) i think humanity has lived long enough in order to resolve everything

now, the general question, do we know everything, well, i think the answer is no and i think this becaues i think the science of staring to share music theory with other people was a guy who said ''oh this sounds good to people, but this doesnt'' and i think humanity will encounter thath phrase in the future more than one time, but i think we do know a lot
Last edited by actaderock at Jun 29, 2010,
#21
Can't do the chromatic because it would STILL be the chromatic scale... the intervals are still the same. If you did 2 whole steps you'd eventually come around to the Whole-Tone Scale. 5 steps? There is Quartal Harmony (as opposed to our Tertian harmony).

this is what i was originally wanting to hear..(different interval scales- that i may not know)
is there a scale with some 2 steps and half steps or 1 1/2 steps.. (get the idea?)
in regards to the chromatic scale i guess a better way to word what i meant was like making different modes using different steps (than are used with ionian,aeolian, etc)
for example a shot in the dark would be c d# f Ab--- this is not a good/finished example- i just realized that it was the parts of the minor scale...and i wanted to go to the next octive and hit notes and then go the next octave and hit c... but i think i get what you mean by "STILL be the C. scale"--- if my octave idea doesn't count as a scale.. here is what a finished example might look like... c d# f Ab c# Eb(d#again) f# Ab B then im going to say C cause i dont want the pattern to continue- i may fool with this later and find one i think sounds good and kinda has a pattern hopefully you can see where i am wanting to go with this....


You would write them like you do the major scale... but the chords would need #/b's before the Roman Numeral. The problem with those is they're not harmonious. The way the intervals work makes it very hard to create anything good aside from a melody. A melody and a countermelody could be very good though, now that I think about it...


i may try to write a melody when my mind comes back haha actually trying to find a pattern that sounded good (above) was kind of stressful...

If you want those 3 notes to be different... change them! No one is stopping you ;]

well i did.. but then i also learned i need to write things down .... cause i forgot them..

okay this is the first time trying to multi quote.. so i dk what its going to look like
#22
Quote by GuitarMunky
There is always more....

best not to worry about it IMO.


this. there is much more we can do with music, but honestly, to make even the slightest contribution, you'd need to know what's already been done. looking at the past hundred years, we've gained pitch axis, composition methods like twelve-tone composition and serialism -- a lot of things. really, though, it's not a matter of making new scales or altering a few intervals. i'm not saying don't do it - there's nothing wrong with doing this (or anything, really) in composition - but within the constraints of the 12TET system, i honestly don't think anything new will be achieved in terms of scales (same goes for modes). conceptually speaking, everything has been done before.

but no, we don't know everything, even within the constraints of the 12TET system. if you really want to contribute something new, your best bet is to study compositional methods (particularly those of the 20th century), and come up with something entirely new.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#23
Quote by actaderock
okay so your question went from general to specific

the answer in my opinion to the specific question (moving around modes) i think humanity has lived long enough in order to resolve everything

now, the general question, do we know everything, well, i think the answer is no and i think this becaues i think the science of staring to share music theory with other people was a guy who said ''oh this sounds good to people, but this doesnt'' and i think humanity will encounter thath phrase in the future more than one time, but i think we do know a lot


yea i agree we do know a lot to have made this up from scratch... but i think its good to know that there is a lot of undiscovered aspects we can apply to our music still yet...
and i still haven't found the right sound for me and my question was intended to get a bigger idea of things i can explore... i like the harmonic/ melodic scale idea a lot ... and was going for ideas like that ... however got more than i intended for, which is all good
#24
Quote by DiminishedFifth

this is what i was originally wanting to hear..(different interval scales- that i may not know)
is there a scale with some 2 steps and half steps or 1 1/2 steps.. (get the idea?)
in regards to the chromatic scale i guess a better way to word what i meant was like making different modes using different steps (than are used with ionian,aeolian, etc)
for example a shot in the dark would be c d# f Ab--- this is not a good/finished example- i just realized that it was the parts of the minor scale...and i wanted to go to the next octive and hit notes and then go the next octave and hit c... but i think i get what you mean by "STILL be the C. scale"--- if my octave idea doesn't count as a scale.. here is what a finished example might look like... c d# f Ab c# Eb(d#again) f# Ab B then im going to say C cause i dont want the pattern to continue- i may fool with this later and find one i think sounds good and kinda has a pattern hopefully you can see where i am wanting to go with this....

1 1/2 steps is a m7b5 chord.

That scale you created has no harmonic use, honestly. The intervals won't interact the right way. It does sound like a melody though.
#25
Quote by AeolianWolf
this. there is much more we can do with music, but honestly, to make even the slightest contribution, you'd need to know what's already been done. looking at the past hundred years, we've gained pitch axis, composition methods like twelve-tone composition and serialism -- a lot of things. really, though, it's not a matter of making new scales or altering a few intervals. i'm not saying don't do it - there's nothing wrong with doing this (or anything, really) in composition - but within the constraints of the 12TET system, i honestly don't think anything new will be achieved in terms of scales (same goes for modes). conceptually speaking, everything has been done before.

but no, we don't know everything, even within the constraints of the 12TET system. if you really want to contribute something new, your best bet is to study compositional methods (particularly those of the 20th century), and come up with something entirely new.


alright! .... i plan on at least having some sort of an overview about every area in theory... so i can find the sound i want and how to generate it-i fear if i just sat down and try to find all the notes that i like i wont know why i like them ... so i'd like to take a peek into all areas of theory but only develop what i can apply to my music... after my lessons on harmony and chord progressions then modes i think i will be ready for compositional methods but i haven't even googled it yet so i will do that now...
i guess i am a little afraid thats there is some very important music theory out there that i may not ever find because i have no teacher and no real concrete structure to how i am learning guitar... i thought i was doing fine at first but then seen how much players who were taught progressed faster than i... so now i've been gathering a lot of nice info with websites (stumble upon) and making some self lessons that will help me progress...
#26
Quote by elihu4321
alright! .... i plan on at least having some sort of an overview about every area in theory... so i can find the sound i want and how to generate it-i fear if i just sat down and try to find all the notes that i like i wont know why i like them ... so i'd like to take a peek into all areas of theory but only develop what i can apply to my music... after my lessons on harmony and chord progressions then modes i think i will be ready for compositional methods but i haven't even googled it yet so i will do that now...
i guess i am a little afraid thats there is some very important music theory out there that i may not ever find because i have no teacher and no real concrete structure to how i am learning guitar... i thought i was doing fine at first but then seen how much players who were taught progressed faster than i... so now i've been gathering a lot of nice info with websites (stumble upon) and making some self lessons that will help me progress...

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. One step at a time.

Master the major scale before you even begin thinking about modes. They will just confuse you if you don't have the Major scale down.
#27
Quote by elihu4321

1 1/2 steps is a m7b5 chord.

That scale you created has no harmonic use, honestly. The intervals won't interact the right way. It does sound like a melody though.

yea i haven't studied harmony yet so maybe after that i can have another go at it..
and i was actually trying on the 1st 4 notes but then realized i don't know what i am doing haha.. i know a scale is only one octave long but i am trying to go up 3 i think..
while trying to make that scale i was sounding like an arpeggio so i think i need to study through all the chords and play the notes of them and see if thats what i am searching for... it could just end up being a really big chord extension .. i dk.
#28
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. One step at a time.

Master the major scale before you even begin thinking about modes. They will just confuse you if you don't have the Major scale down.

well the past few weeks this is what i've been trying to do.. (then i was going to base the chord progression and harmony with the major scale, then apply it to the minor- then probably work with the dorian mode (just my idea so far))
what all should i know about the major scale this is what i can think of that i know...
1. comes from chromatic scale.
2. each interval of the scale is the start of a different mode.
3. the steps in the scale...
4. and .... (i dk if this should be here but i have been doing this) triads with the major scale... i need to attack bigger chords tho and really think about arpeggios this time...
and thats all i can think of ... any other important info to know about it??
#29
Quote by elihu4321

3. the steps in the scale...
4. triads with the major


This is all that matters out of the things you told me. With number 4 being the most important out of all of them (it actually doesn't come from the chromatic scale).

Learn how to make triads quickly and with very few mistakes. Learn how the chords interact with each other.

Actually, go here and start from the very first lesson. We used this in my Music Theory AP class and I can tell you that this will give you EVERYTHING you need to know. You could write beautiful music with this.

Having said that, there is always more to learn. But start there and don't even think about modes until you're done.
Last edited by DiminishedFifth at Jun 29, 2010,
#30
well the past few weeks this is what i've been trying to do.. (then i was going to base the chord progression and harmony with the major scale, then apply it to the minor- then probably work with the dorian mode (just my idea so far))


Until you can analyze and play bebop, learn every possible substitution you could play over a dominant chord you have no need for modes. Stick to real chords before implying them melodically.
#31
Quote by DiminishedFifth
This is all that matters out of the things you told me. With number 4 being the most important out of all of them (it actually doesn't come from the chromatic scale).

Learn how to make triads quickly and with very few mistakes. Learn how the chords interact with each other.

Actually, go here and start from the very first lesson. We used this in my Music Theory AP class and I can tell you that this will give you EVERYTHING you need to know. You could write beautiful music with this.

Having said that, there is always more to learn. But start there and don't even think about modes until you're done.


haha are modes really like difficult to learn? when i glanced at them it seemed like it was pretty straightforward but yes i don't plan on getting involved with modes for like 2 months and then after modes i think i will have the basic sound i want and can start looking for a band which will really help me for i have only played with back tracks (basic sounding ones) and some ppl i know around here but they are all keith urban fans and such which is ok but doesn't let me explore much..

the major scale isn't from the chromatic scale??? could you explain because i thought we first had the chromatic and then developed the major scale... thanks for the link i'll make good use out of it.
#32
Quote by Pillo114
Until you can analyze and play bebop, learn every possible substitution you could play over a dominant chord you have no need for modes. Stick to real chords before implying them melodically.

ok i've seen the bebop scale on some generator sites and have no clue what it is or how it is derived or any music that use's it... and yea i am about to start a advance chord lesson, which i have been gathering some info on this site about , and tie it in with learning progressions and such...
maybe i have a wrong mind set about modes (i was just wanting to make some riffs using different modes- and see the sound characteristics for them) but is there a lot you can do with modes?? and is this why i should stay away from them now???
#33
Quote by elihu4321
haha are modes really like difficult to learn? when i glanced at them it seemed like it was pretty straightforward but yes i don't plan on getting involved with modes for like 2 months and then after modes i think i will have the basic sound i want and can start looking for a band which will really help me for i have only played with back tracks (basic sounding ones) and some ppl i know around here but they are all keith urban fans and such which is ok but doesn't let me explore much..


It's not that they're more difficult, it's that they're harder to understand if you don't have a solid foundation. Which you lack. I want to make sure you have a good foundation before you delve into them. Many people skip their foundation and go straight to the Modes and come out more confused than they should be. We want to avoid this with you.

the major scale isn't from the chromatic scale??? could you explain because i thought we first had the chromatic and then developed the major scale... thanks for the link i'll make good use out of it.


Here's a really, really summed up version of the history of our music:

Back in BC times, before we got into tonality like we have, the Greeks were the first to make music. These are where most of (if not all) of the modes originated. They were named after the different Greek provinces that figured them out using Pythagoras' system. For example, Lydian was named after the Lydian Greeks, as was Mixolydian.

Back then, what we now call Lydian (I think it was called Hypo-Dorian then) was the standard (did Pythagoras' make this one?). They preferred it because it was completely symmetrical. You can split it in half. Keep in mind, they didn't have chords. They did chants and stuff of that nature (think Gregorian Chants).

Eventually someone made our current Major scale (I can't remember the name for it at the time... I think it was Ionian, but don't quote me on that) by taking the Lydian mode and starting on the fifth degree. Now, this wasn't the standard, but it was made.

Eventually, in the 1400's a Latin guy named Fux was making a book detailing all the modes and got the names mixed up. What he thought they used as their standard (remember, it was our current Lydian) was the Major scale. So, he wrote it and it got published and passed around, and thus, the Major scale became our standard for harmony.

ANYONE: if any of this is wrong, please correct me.
#34
Quote by elihu4321
ok i've seen the bebop scale on some generator sites and have no clue what it is or how it is derived or any music that use's it... and yea i am about to start a advance chord lesson, which i have been gathering some info on this site about , and tie it in with learning progressions and such...
maybe i have a wrong mind set about modes (i was just wanting to make some riffs using different modes- and see the sound characteristics for them) but is there a lot you can do with modes?? and is this why i should stay away from them now???


I don't mean the bebop scale, I mean bebop jazz.

I'm probably the biggest defender of modes here by far, but you need to learn at least basic harmony. Sure nothing is ever stopping you from using their patterns to make cool licks and riffs but theorywise you should stay away for now.

I know it's a typical UG cheapo answer, but you should get the most out of playing from chords first.

If you still want to melt your brain though, search for my posts, especially my first few ones. I think I must have like dozens of pages worth of modal posts
Last edited by Pillo114 at Jun 29, 2010,
#35
Pythagorean scales exist for a reason.

It's because non-Pythagorean scales don't sound good to humans.

Our system of music evolved because of what naturally sounds good to us... the theory was created later to explain and expand that.

So... nothing composed with non-Pythagorean scales is going to sound as good as Pythagorean scales.
#36
Quote by illmatic2594
Pythagorean scales exist for a reason.

It's because non-Pythagorean scales don't sound good to humans.

Our system of music evolved because of what naturally sounds good to us... the theory was created later to explain and expand that.

So... nothing composed with non-Pythagorean scales is going to sound as good as Pythagorean scales.


Except for all of the native music outside of the Western World...
#37
Even non-Western music has Pythagorean roots if you actually break it down. Even if the natives who invented them don't know it.
#38
Quote by illmatic2594
Even non-Western music has Pythagorean roots if you actually break it down. Even if the natives who invented them don't know it.


#39
Quote by DiminishedFifth
It's not that they're more difficult, it's that they're harder to understand if you don't have a solid foundation. Which you lack. I want to make sure you have a good foundation before you delve into them. Many people skip their foundation and go straight to the Modes and come out more confused than they should be. We want to avoid this with you.


Here's a really, really summed up version of the history of our music:

Back in BC times, before we got into tonality like we have, the Greeks were the first to make music. These are where most of (if not all) of the modes originated. They were named after the different Greek provinces that figured them out using Pythagoras' system. For example, Lydian was named after the Lydian Greeks, as was Mixolydian.

Back then, what we now call Lydian (I think it was called Hypo-Dorian then) was the standard (did Pythagoras' make this one?). They preferred it because it was completely symmetrical. You can split it in half. Keep in mind, they didn't have chords. They did chants and stuff of that nature (think Gregorian Chants).

Eventually someone made our current Major scale (I can't remember the name for it at the time... I think it was Ionian, but don't quote me on that) by taking the Lydian mode and starting on the fifth degree. Now, this wasn't the standard, but it was made.

Eventually, in the 1400's a Latin guy named Fux was making a book detailing all the modes and got the names mixed up. What he thought they used as their standard (remember, it was our current Lydian) was the Major scale. So, he wrote it and it got published and passed around, and thus, the Major scale became our standard for harmony.

ANYONE: if any of this is wrong, please correct me.

i think i have a little more foundation then i am being gave credit for here.(not that it matters) All i was meaning was that the chromatic scale is made up with all 12 notes where the major scale has 7 and base your steps on the chromatic scale(thats how i learned it) then the intervals of the major scale are the start of the different modes...
#40
Pythagorean scales aren't just an arbitrary Western construct. They were created by studying ratios of sound frequencies, and which ones naturally sound good to the human brain.

So when non-Western natives make music that they perceive as "sounding good", they're likely using Pythagorean ideas.
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