#1
How do you know what key your scale/mode etc is in? I think I'm over complicating it........
#3
Quote by Trivium!
It's where the root note of the scale is...



Is that it?

I knew I was complicating things....
#4
You kinda figure out where the chord progression resolves itself. If you have a Dminor, G7, Cmaj progression you're in C cause that's where it ends up and because the Dm and G7 are parent scales (as i think of it) or modes of C.
D E F G A B C D and G A B C D E F G D both fit into C major.

Ok. Now when the harmony is at D minor you're in the key of C but you should be thinking D Dorian mode. when the progression goes to G you should be thinking key of C but G mixolydian. This is because the key signature should still be C and because it's going to resolve to C. BUT the chord tones you should land on should be slightly different.

Chord tones for Cmaj: C E G B

Chord tones for Dmin: D F A C (these contain notes that are NOT found in the chord tones of Cmaj. Take special note of the F which, if played over Cmaj, would sound really harsh.)

Chord tones for G7: G B D F (again it contains chord tones not in Cmaj or Dmin)

That's why modes are important because you can't always land on the chord tones of C major even if you're in that key.

Play some jazz music and it'll make more sense after analyzing some progressions.
#5
Quote by Don't Read This
Ok. Now when the harmony is at D minor you're in the key of C but you should be thinking D Dorian mode. when the progression goes to G you should be thinking key of C but G mixolydian. This is because the key signature should still be C and because it's going to resolve to C. BUT the chord tones you should land on should be slightly different.


You are overcomplicating things SO much. Firstly whenever you're in the key of C you're playing in the key of C, nothing else, you can screw your brain about with modes all you like but it's all C major; if you want to target chord tones then do that but it's ALL C major. Adding modes if you want to target chord tones is just adding more complication to an idea that already stumps a lot of guitarists.
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#6
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
You are overcomplicating things SO much. Firstly whenever you're in the key of C you're playing in the key of C, nothing else, you can screw your brain about with modes all you like but it's all C major; if you want to target chord tones then do that but it's ALL C major. Adding modes if you want to target chord tones is just adding more complication to an idea that already stumps a lot of guitarists.

Yes you are right. I've been playing saxophone almost exclusively so i think that's where my ideas are coming from. Nevertheless, i feel that you are in C all the time and that in practice you should think of modes as reflecting changes in chord tones and nothing more.
#7
Quote by Don't Read This
Yes you are right. I've been playing saxophone almost exclusively so i think that's where my ideas are coming from. Nevertheless, i feel that you are in C all the time and that in practice you should think of modes as reflecting changes in chord tones and nothing more.


If you need to keep chord tones in mind anyway why add more stuff taking up brain space when you can just think "these are the chord tones, those are my targets"?
R.I.P. My Signature. Lost to us in the great Signature Massacre of 2014.

Quote by Master Foo
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#8
Another question - So I've started to learn the modes and I've been trying to find a shortcut in memorizing all the different patterns/keys etc. If I were to learn the major/minor scale in every key and then applied the knowledge that the modes are basically a variation of them would I be able to play all the modes in any key? For example, if I were to learn the Eminor scale then I wanted to play EPhygrian could I just apply my knowledge that EPhygrian is basically a minor scale with a flattened 2nd would I then be able to play EPhygrian that way? And would it basically work that way in any key?
#9
You can memorise them any way you like but knowing the notes of the modes is only the first step and is by far the easiest. Learning to actually use them is where it gets really hard and to be honest I don't think you're anywhere near ready for it.
R.I.P. My Signature. Lost to us in the great Signature Massacre of 2014.

Quote by Master Foo
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#10
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
If you need to keep chord tones in mind anyway why add more stuff taking up brain space when you can just think "these are the chord tones, those are my targets"?

I already highlighted that on my previous tone. Chord tones change. While in Dminor you can hit that F as a b3 but if you try to hit it over Cmaj it'll sound dissonant cause it's the 4th (unless that's what you want, it's all context). Somebody said that you should practice all the intricacies of music and then during performances just loosen up and play. And i think (from a jazz standpoint) it works really well. I never think about chord tones or modes when I perform or practice (with an ensemble) but it's important. Say you get a key you're not used to like F# if you at least have some idea on which tones to land on it won't sound like a train wreck. I say this because I've seen some guys that play and they don't know where they're going so at least having some knowledge of how the chords move (cause they really do move) helps in at least "faking it."
#11
Quote by Don't Read This
Yes you are right. I've been playing saxophone almost exclusively so i think that's where my ideas are coming from. Nevertheless, i feel that you are in C all the time and that in practice you should think of modes as reflecting changes in chord tones and nothing more.


not quite. in a progression in the key of C major, you shouldn't think of modes as "reflecting changes in chord tones and nothing more". you shouldn't think of modes at all. they have no application here. if you have a ii-V-I in C, you're not playing D dorian, G mixolydian, and C ionian, you're playing C major over all three chords. chord tone emphasis in this case has nothing to do with modes. this whole thing is tonal.

in practice, you think of modes when the context dictates that you think of modes. that's it.

Quote by Absynthisizer
Another question - So I've started to learn the modes and I've been trying to find a shortcut in memorizing all the different patterns/keys etc. If I were to learn the major/minor scale in every key and then applied the knowledge that the modes are basically a variation of them would I be able to play all the modes in any key? For example, if I were to learn the Eminor scale then I wanted to play EPhygrian could I just apply my knowledge that EPhygrian is basically a minor scale with a flattened 2nd would I then be able to play EPhygrian that way? And would it basically work that way in any key?


not quite. you wouldn't play modes in a key. you would play modes if the music was modal. that's number one.

as far as your E minor/E phrygian situation is concerned, you COULD do that to help you learn the modes. in actual practice, however, harmony and melody would have to suggest E phrygian in order for it to actually be E phrygian. depending on the context (particularly so if there was a key), what you might consider E phrygian could just be E minor with an F as an accidental, and, as such, it would not truly be E phrygian. but as i said, it depends on context.
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Last edited by AeolianWolf at Jul 1, 2010,
#12
Quote by Don't Read This
I already highlighted that on my previous tone. Chord tones change. While in Dminor you can hit that F as a b3 but if you try to hit it over Cmaj it'll sound dissonant cause it's the 4th (unless that's what you want, it's all context). Somebody said that you should practice all the intricacies of music and then during performances just loosen up and play. And i think (from a jazz standpoint) it works really well. I never think about chord tones or modes when I perform or practice (with an ensemble) but it's important. Say you get a key you're not used to like F# if you at least have some idea on which tones to land on it won't sound like a train wreck. I say this because I've seen some guys that play and they don't know where they're going so at least having some knowledge of how the chords move (cause they really do move) helps in at least "faking it."


I'm aware that chord tones change, oddly enough they move with the chords, but if you're thinking "well the chord contains these tones/intervals which means this mode so these notes" why not just cut it down to "well the chord contains these tones/intervals so I'll target those"?
R.I.P. My Signature. Lost to us in the great Signature Massacre of 2014.

Quote by Master Foo
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#13
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
I'm aware that chord tones change, oddly enough they move with the chords, but if you're thinking "well the chord contains these tones/intervals which means this mode so these notes" why not just cut it down to "well the chord contains these tones/intervals so I'll target those"?

I think we are thinking of the same thing. I don't think of MODES by name i just think of notes. When I'm in Dminor i don't think D Dorian i think D F A C. HOW ARE NAMES SUPPOSE TO HELP YOU MAKE MUSIC you know. But as far as explanation and communication among musicians you need the names.