#1
Topic. Should I spend a lot of time learning how to play all twelve keys all down the fret board. I play classical guitar pretty much exclusively and its kinda encouraged at the moment. Will this like help me sight read or something? cause that alot of work......

Also a question about sight reading. Does the key signature change ALL the notes or the note in that octave. I'm trying to read this sheet in G major and the Sharp is on the top line. But the F in the sheets are on the first space. Should that be sharped?
Quote by Kyose
You sir are my God.

That game had the best synthesis system ever.


Quote by firebird103
I'm pretty sure you just won the thread. I can confirm everything you just said as well being a heavily qualified geek myself....

Congrats sir
#2
Quote by Thepredster
Topic. Should I spend a lot of time learning how to play all twelve keys all down the fret board. I play classical guitar pretty much exclusively and its kinda encouraged at the moment. Will this like help me sight read or something? cause that alot of work......

It will help especially for a Classical guitarist. Sight reading is a great tool to have and this will help immensely.

Also a question about sight reading. Does the key signature change ALL the notes or the note in that octave. I'm trying to read this sheet in G major and the Sharp is on the top line. But the F in the sheets are on the first space. Should that be sharped?

The key sig affects every note that is sharped or flatted, regardless of the octave.
#3
Well all major keys are the same as each other in a way.
The relationship is the same between all the notes, therefore on a guitar, you end up with a shape that can be moved up and down the fretboard to accommodate each key.
So once you know one, you practically know them all
(Same goes for minors, it's all about shapes)

And yes, it means every F will be sharpened, unless stated otherwise with a natural sign before it
#4
Quote by DiminishedFifth
It will help especially for a Classical guitarist. Sight reading is a great tool to have and this will help immensely.

*Takes a deep breath* Alright. I'm up for it.

Quote by DiminishedFifth

The key sig affects every note that is sharped or flatted, regardless of the octave.

Thanks. appreciate it.
Quote by Kyose
You sir are my God.

That game had the best synthesis system ever.


Quote by firebird103
I'm pretty sure you just won the thread. I can confirm everything you just said as well being a heavily qualified geek myself....

Congrats sir
#5
Quote by Thepredster
*Takes a deep breath* Alright. I'm up for it.


Thanks. appreciate it.

Quick question: Do you know your Circle of Fifths? It'll make learning them a lot easier.
#6
Yes you should. you should also transpose a fair deal of simple songs by ear (think mary had a little lamb, happy birthday to you) through all of the keys, as well as practice running thirds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, 7ths and octaves up and down each scale and playing all of the diaotnic triads and 7th chords. you should do all of this in every conceivable closed and open hand position.
#7
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Quick question: Do you know your Circle of Fifths? It'll make learning them a lot easier.


I was really familiar with it and its in my theory book. Of the top of my head, isn't it like every time you go up a 5th from C Major. Its an extra sharp. So the P5 of C is G so G Major has one sharp. P5 of G Major is D so D Major has 2 sharp and so on. You can find out which notes are sharped pretty easy but I remember their was like a pattern to it. Not sure about figuring out flats but I know you go the other way around. Miss anything?

Quote by tehREALcaptain
Yes you should. you should also transpose a fair deal of simple songs by ear (think mary had a little lamb, happy birthday to you) through all of the keys, as well as practice running thirds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, 7ths and octaves up and down each scale and playing all of the diaotnic triads and 7th chords. you should do all of this in every conceivable closed and open hand position.


I can not transpose at all. Its quite difficult. I end up finding my transcriptions are fairly different from the actual song. It was around what you just adviced that I kinda got lazy and tried to skip it. Its very big mental strain. But I'll try and suffer through.
Quote by Kyose
You sir are my God.

That game had the best synthesis system ever.


Quote by firebird103
I'm pretty sure you just won the thread. I can confirm everything you just said as well being a heavily qualified geek myself....

Congrats sir
Last edited by Thepredster at Jul 1, 2010,
#8
Not to piss anyone off, but if you dont know all 12 major/minor keys then thats like not knowing your alphabet.

And theres nothing wrong with that, as long as you plan to learn it eventually
#9
Quote by Thepredster
I was really familiar with it and its in my theory book. Of the top of my head, isn't it like every time you go up a 5th from C Major. Its an extra sharp. So the P5 of C is G so G Major has one sharp. P5 of G Major is D so D Major has 2 sharp and so on. You can find out which notes are sharped pretty easy but I remember their was like a pattern to it. Not sure about figuring out flats but I know you go the other way around.

Check my blog. If you know everything, then it'll be a good review. If not, you'll get something new out of it!

But knowing the Co5's will make this entire ordeal (or journey) a lot easier.
#10
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Check my blog. If you know everything, then it'll be a good review. If not, you'll get something new out of it!

But knowing the Co5's will make this entire ordeal (or journey) a lot easier.


Much Obliged.
Thanks for everyone telling me how important this is/will be.

edit-
Does the circle of 5ths help for minor keys?
Quote by Kyose
You sir are my God.

That game had the best synthesis system ever.


Quote by firebird103
I'm pretty sure you just won the thread. I can confirm everything you just said as well being a heavily qualified geek myself....

Congrats sir
Last edited by Thepredster at Jul 1, 2010,
#11
Quote by Thepredster
Topic. Should I spend a lot of time learning how to play all twelve keys all down the fret board. I play classical guitar pretty much exclusively and its kinda encouraged at the moment. Will this like help me sight read or something? cause that alot of work......

Also a question about sight reading. Does the key signature change ALL the notes or the note in that octave. I'm trying to read this sheet in G major and the Sharp is on the top line. But the F in the sheets are on the first space. Should that be sharped?



Well, how are you planning to "learn to play all 12 keys"? Like what does that mean exactly?

I'll just say that without context it means nothing..... think about it.

To answer your question. I would not spend time practicing in all 12 keys PRE - sight reading - or PRE music.

I would deal with the issue in the context of music by sight reading music in various keys.... ultimately you may play in all of them, though you'll find that most of the time you'll stick to the more common ones.

In regards to studying music, you'll of-course want to become familiar with the key signatures. (order of sharps and flats .... CO5..... all that stuff)

but for playing music in different keys..... PLAY MUSIC IN DIFFERENT KEYS.

I'm talking years of practice here no shortcuts.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 1, 2010,
#12
^I think we can safely assume he means to be familiar enough with all 12 keys that he can play music of moderate difficulty in any key comfortably
#13
Quote by tubatom868686
^I think we can safely assume he means to be familiar enough with all 12 keys that he can play music of moderate difficulty in any key comfortably


well it was a rhetorical question. The point being that you don't just learn to play all 12 keys to get better at sight reading. You sight read in various keys (ultimately 12) and become familiar with them in that context.

I mean you can memorize the Co5/key sigs of all 12 keys, but that doesn't really make you better at playing or sight reading them. That only comes from doing.

TS.... start simple.... key of C or Am. spend quality time there. Gradually read more difficult keys. It takes time!
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 1, 2010,
#14
Quote by GuitarMunky
well it was a rhetorical question. My answer is still .....


I do this thing sometimes where I only read the first 3 lines of a post >_>

In my defense its because usually when Im on UG Im on the train on my way to stuff, and Im on my iphone. And its easy to scroll over stuff
#15
Quote by tubatom868686
I do this thing sometimes where I only read the first 3 lines of a post >_>

In my defense its because usually when Im on UG Im on the train on my way to stuff, and Im on my iphone. And its easy to scroll over stuff


LOL ..... I've done it myself. NP
shred is gaudy music
#16
Quote by GuitarMunky


but for playing music in different keys..... PLAY MUSIC IN DIFFERENT KEYS.

I'm talking years of practice here no shortcuts.

+1

if you're learning about just getting the scales down under your fingers then there aint nothin to but to do it. i would like to point out that the second you start feeling comfortable with them then start using them musically as just knowing a scale won't make you sound good, you need to know how to use the notes in (and later on, out of) the scale to make something musical sounding.
#17
Quote by GuitarMunky
well it was a rhetorical question. The point being that you don't just learn to play all 12 keys to get better at sight reading. You sight read in various keys (ultimately 12) and become familiar with them in that context.

I mean you can memorize the Co5/key sigs of all 12 keys, but that doesn't really make you better at playing or sight reading them. That only comes from doing.

TS.... start simple.... key of C or Am. spend quality time there. Gradually read more difficult keys. It takes time!


In the method of Classical guitar that I'm reading. It has me play exercises of each key in the Major scale up and down the neck. Then asks me to do the Minor scale in each keys in sheet music. Needless to say, its very mentally exhausting practicing keys for hours then days. So I was asking its importance. I'd rather skip it but it seems important. Especially trying to sight read songs quickly.
Quote by Kyose
You sir are my God.

That game had the best synthesis system ever.


Quote by firebird103
I'm pretty sure you just won the thread. I can confirm everything you just said as well being a heavily qualified geek myself....

Congrats sir
#18
Quote by Thepredster
I can not transpose at all. Its quite difficult. I end up finding my transcriptions are fairly different from the actual song. It was around what you just adviced that I kinda got lazy and tried to skip it. Its very big mental strain. But I'll try and suffer through.

"Transpose" does not mean "transcribe".

Just to clarify.
#19
I can not transpose at all. Its quite difficult. I end up finding my transcriptions are fairly different from the actual song. It was around what you just adviced that I kinda got lazy and tried to skip it. Its very big mental strain. But I'll try and suffer through.


Yeah it sucks, but you need to get it out of the way now, because it will suck to do it later. ive just started practicing things like that, and ive noticed my playing begin to improve signficantly since Ive started on that stuff. It improves almost every aspect of your playing (aside from speed--i like to do it painfully slow). Id recomend learning all 12 major and minor (harmonic and melodic) scales up and down each single string before you start working on anything in position.
#20
It's definitly a very usefull, but not a mandatory thing.

All the major scales are the same patter but different notes. If you learn the pattern all over the fretboard once, I dont think you realy need to learn it 11x more.

Anyone will do fine if they know at least to find the tonics of the scale on the fretboard and apply the major scale pattern with that, as long as also keep the open string notes in mind.

Just the fact that it takes more time isnt a reason in itself to not learn something usefull, but learning the same scale in 12 different positions can have the potential of confusing different keys. Also, there's a ton of scales outside of the major scale, so you learn all 12 positions of that too?

I'm just not a fan of rote learning when it's more time efficient to rote learn something once and have the skills to apply what you learn in different contexts.
Theres just a huge amount of things to learn and practice, and no one has unlimited time. The time I would spend learning one scale 12 times could just as well be spent learning 12 different scales. Or chords. Or practicing time subdivision. Or reading up on theory. Or anything else.
#21
All depends on what you want to do. If you want to be a well-schooled musician, then learning these things in detail should be part of the plan.

However, you can get along pretty well in Bluegrass with the key of "G" and a capo.....
#22
Quote by whoomit
Well all major keys are the same as each other in a way.
The relationship is the same between all the notes, therefore on a guitar, you end up with a shape that can be moved up and down the fretboard to accommodate each key.
So once you know one, you practically know them all
(Same goes for minors, it's all about shapes)
Good points, except for the bolded. Don't look at the relationships between notes as merely shapes. They're great to recognize and be familiar with, but don't teach you anything about the scale itself other than basic location. Learning about intervals helps immensely.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#23
Learning all the key's is not as hard as you may think.

If you learn the 7 patterns of the major scale (which also happen to be the mode positions) it is then just a very simple case of moving them up and down the neck. By doing this you will also have learn the minor keys.

the 6 pattern out of the 7 is the minor pattern.

Remembering your reletive majors and minors is also essential to this.

Honestly though it's not as hard or as daunting as you may think.
#24
Quote by Benjiinsanity
Learning all the key's is not as hard as you may think.

If you learn the 7 patterns of the major scale (which also happen to be the mode positions) it is then just a very simple case of moving them up and down the neck. By doing this you will also have learn the minor keys.

the 6 pattern out of the 7 is the minor pattern.

Remembering your reletive majors and minors is also essential to this.

Honestly though it's not as hard or as daunting as you may think.


yeah, but if you're relying on shapes (unless you make an effort to actually know the notes in the keys) then you don't really know your keys, and thusly haven't really learned them.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#25
Quote by AeolianWolf
yeah, but if you're relying on shapes (unless you make an effort to actually know the notes in the keys) then you don't really know your keys, and thusly haven't really learned them.
This. But as (I think, maybe it was in a different thread) I was saying, as long as you have a firm understanding of intervals, you can "construct" a scale anywhere. It's sort of like a pattern (I'm speaking of the "scale formulas") in a way, but in another way it helps you understand the scale far better. Let's take F minor for example.

You have F as a root. You know you have a major second (based on the 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 formula for the natural minor scale), which you know to be G. Minor third = Ab, perfect fourth = Bb, and so on.

You sort of build the scale based off of the pattern, but it helps you to identify notes according to function. For example, let's take a V I resolution (this is using chords, but it's the same idea). Instead of just seeing G C and knowing that those are two chords which are 7 (or 5, depending on your perspective) half-steps apart, you see them as a dominant and a tonic, thus connecting the chords to the idea of an authentic cadence.

Really any method works though, as long as you understand intervals.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Jul 2, 2010,
#26
Quote by food1010
This. But as (I think, maybe it was in a different thread) I was saying, as long as you have a firm understanding of intervals, you can "construct" a scale anywhere. Let's take F minor for example.

You have F as a root. You know you have a major second (based on the 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 formula for the natural minor scale), which you know to be G. Minor third = Ab, perfect fourth = Bb, and so on.


Yeah I used to be in this thread all the time. So I understand most of this tho it really takes some thought. But I rarely use it in learning classical guitar. I'm always practicing guitar piece hoping like I can read sheet music better. It sounds terrible sometimes and I dont know if I'm doing it right cause I'm still learning how to read sheet music but I practice it but maybe its just a sucky song. Reading sheet music is hard. Then theirs the guitar practice with doing the exercises like 6 times over and over in every conceivable way over and over with every fingers. Then do that for 12 scales. Like is this gonna help each other. This isn't fun any more .
Quote by Kyose
You sir are my God.

That game had the best synthesis system ever.


Quote by firebird103
I'm pretty sure you just won the thread. I can confirm everything you just said as well being a heavily qualified geek myself....

Congrats sir
#27
Quote by AeolianWolf
yeah, but if you're relying on shapes (unless you make an effort to actually know the notes in the keys) then you don't really know your keys, and thusly haven't really learned them.



This is true. I always try and highlight the usefullness of knowing scales just up one string and of course knowing your fret board.. I think using scale patterns is a good base to start at. After all you have to start somwhere. From there you can start identifying notes.

Some would argue why do you need to 'know the keys' if you can just use the scale patterns to stay in key weather it be improvising or writing a solo.
#28
Quote by Benjiinsanity
Learning all the key's is not as hard as you may think.

If you learn the 7 patterns of the major scale (which also happen to be the mode positions) it is then just a very simple case of moving them up and down the neck. By doing this you will also have learn the minor keys.

the 6 pattern out of the 7 is the minor pattern.

Remembering your reletive majors and minors is also essential to this.

Honestly though it's not as hard or as daunting as you may think.


learning them is one thing. knowing them is another.

this is just as true for someone that "understands" scale construction.

Its when we USE The scales in the context of music ......and listen that we begin to understand them.

anyway Im not really disagreeing with you..., knowing the patterns is useful.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 3, 2010,
#29
Quote by GuitarMunky
learning them is one thing. knowing them is another.

this is just as true for someone that "understands" scale construction.

Its when we USE The scales in the context of music ......and listen that we begin to understand them.

anyway Im not really disagreeing with you..., knowing the patterns is useful.



Doesn't that go without saying though?

After you learn your scales and keys etc what else are you going to do with them other then use them to create/improvise?
#30
Quote by Benjiinsanity
Doesn't that go without saying though?

After you learn your scales and keys etc what else are you going to do with them other then use them to create/improvise?

not really. cant say I've really used them
Quote by Kyose
You sir are my God.

That game had the best synthesis system ever.


Quote by firebird103
I'm pretty sure you just won the thread. I can confirm everything you just said as well being a heavily qualified geek myself....

Congrats sir
#32
Quote by Benjiinsanity
You learnt a load of scales and didn't use them?


Pretty much. Its really just practice and for sightreading.
Quote by Kyose
You sir are my God.

That game had the best synthesis system ever.


Quote by firebird103
I'm pretty sure you just won the thread. I can confirm everything you just said as well being a heavily qualified geek myself....

Congrats sir