#1
When a piece is referred to in say A major or D minor, does this refer to just Ionian and Aeolian? what about all other scales? What if the piece was in locrian??
#2
There are only two major scales in the ionian aeolian list, and those two would be ionian and mixolydian, pretty much, the different scales give you different sounds so if you want a peice to sound melodic in a minor key use aolien, if you want it latino sounding go Dorian. Here, this site might help...

http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?qqq=+0&scch=D&scchnam=Major&get2=Get&t=0&choice=1
#3
Quote by adaz
When a piece is referred to in say A major or D minor, does this refer to just Ionian and Aeolian? what about all other scales? What if the piece was in locrian??


Terms are used fast and loose. I see it all the time. A guy teaching theory referred to the relative minor of E as Db (Marty Friedman) - People say what they want to convey an idea, but not necessarily textbook theory.

So the simple answer is, it depends upon who is writing it and what they know or don't know - and with guitarists, and even magazine gurus, their loose usage is for lack of a better way to put it, to get the job done, with technical theory being a secondary consideration, if at all.

But Ionian and Aeolian - are Modes. Keys are Major and Minor.

Modal music is complicated and tonal and not necessarily melodic or key based. But people associate modes in as many ways as there are ideas, to help understand and explain things that are miles away from what their original meaning and purpose were.

Best,

Sean

PS

If a piece is in Locrian, play a m7b5 chord and stay there
#4
Quote by adaz
When a piece is referred to in say A major or D minor, does this refer to just Ionian and Aeolian? what about all other scales? What if the piece was in locrian??


Well no, it refers to A major or D minor.

it's true that the Ionian and aeolian modes exist in modern times as the Major and natural minor scales, but in most cases it's not appropriate/consistent with common practice to refer to them by their ancient modal names....... though I understand the urge to use the fancier names.

What you're missing out on is historical context. You can catch up on that with a textbook, or even by browsing some articles online.

Re: locrian

As Sean mentioned it technically goes over a half diminished chord (m7b5). you need to understand though that in most cases a m7b5 is functioning in a particular key (and NOT as the tonic). Locrian is sometimes referred to as a " hypothetical" mode..... and is generally avoided.



the term Ionian is for all practical purposes obsolete. It exists as the Major scale (and has for a very LONG time). There is no need to say that piece is in "Ionian" because it would be more appropriate just to say "Major".
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 7, 2010,
#5
Yep, if it says A major or D minor, that what it is in. It has nothing to do with modes. That's a completely different ball game. Check out the modes sticky for some clarification, but don't get into modes until you have a solid understanding of tonal music (major/minor scales, chords, harmony, intervals...).

Quote by GuitarMunky
You can catch up on that with a textbook, or even by browsing some articles online.


Going online might make things worse, since that's where a lot of this misinformation comes from. You've got to be really careful.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#6
Quote by rockingamer2


Check out the modes sticky for some clarification, but don't get into modes until you have a solid understanding of tonal music (major/minor scales, chords, harmony, intervals...).


Going online might make things worse, since that's where a lot of this misinformation comes from. You've got to be really careful.


Well of course. same goes for taking advice/lessons from UG....... it's on the Internet and a shining example of what you're talking about. But let's not detract from our actual points.


Quote by rockingamer2
Yep, if it says A major or D minor, that what it is in. It has nothing to do with modes. That's a completely different ball game.


well, it has something to do with modes. modes and modern scales are very much connected and part of the same "ball game".

the main problem with calling a Major piece "Ionian" is that the term is obsolete. The only benefit to calling it "Ionian" is that a person can convince themselves they are more "advanced" since they're using the fancier word. of course it actually shows the opposite..... it reveals an ignorance of the historical context.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 7, 2010,
#7
Quote by D.I.R.T.
There are only two major scales in the ionian aeolian list, and those two would be ionian and mixolydian, pretty much, the different scales give you different sounds so if you want a peice to sound melodic in a minor key use aolien, if you want it latino sounding go Dorian. Here, this site might help...

http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?qqq=+0&scch=D&scchnam=Major&get2=Get&t=0&choice=1


you're forgetting lydian. and i don't buy that "use this scale for a particular sound" crap. if you want a piece to sound in a minor key, you use a minor key. for all practical purposes, aeolian doesn't exist anymore. and if you want something latino sounding, you listen to latino music, analyze it, and compose something similar. you don't just stick to the dorian mode -- i've written pieces in dorian that aren't even remotely latino-sounding.

for the sake of your knowledge, i suggest you reevaluate what you think you know about modes.

Quote by GuitarMunky
the main problem with calling a Major piece "Ionian" is that the term is obsolete.


precisely. really, nothing has been written in ionian or aeolian since the key system was developed and became fairly widely used - pieces in ionian and aeolian only existed through the system of modal counterpoint that was prevalent in bach's time.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#8
I used the terms Ionian and Aeolian because that's what the major and minor keys are aren't they? That's where I'm confused, we use 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 as the major key and 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 as the minor key... so why can't we build keys out of other scales? I know I'm missing something fundamental here that's why I'm asking
#9
Quote by Sean0913

If a piece is in Locrian, play a m7b5 chord and stay there


And it'll create a triumphant sound too
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#10
Quote by adaz
I used the terms Ionian and Aeolian because that's what the major and minor keys are aren't they? That's where I'm confused, we use 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 as the major key and 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 as the minor key... so why can't we build keys out of other scales? I know I'm missing something fundamental here that's why I'm asking


Ionian an Aeolian are modes. If you want to refer to the major or (natural) minor scale, use the terms major and minor. You don't need to throw in the names of modes because they don't apply in this situation, especially those, because the are obsolete, as said above.

Those formulas you listed are scale formulas, not key formulas. Furthermore, whether or not a scale or chord is major or minor is determined by the third and the third only. If it's flat, it's minor. If it's natural, it's major.

Hopefully that cleared some stuff up. If you want to learn some more, click on the MusicTheory.net link in my sig and look at the lessons.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#11
Quote by rockingamer2
whether or not a scale or chord is major or minor is determined by the third and the third only. If it's flat, it's minor. If it's natural, it's major.



if the 3rd is flat AND the 5th is flat as ....... its diminished.
if the 3rd is natural and the 5th is sharp........... its augmented

so you do actually have to look beyond the root 3rd relationship to determine the chord.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 9, 2010,
#12
Quote by GuitarMunky
if the 3rd is flat AND the 5th is flat as ....... its diminished.
if the 3rd is natural and the 5th is sharp........... its augmented

so you do actually have to look beyond the root 3rd relationship to determine the chord.


Yes, but diminished is "minor" because of the flat third.

But I should have explained it better than what I said originally. My bad.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#13
It's been said already so I don't need to go into detail, but keys =/= modes. Now, major keys and minor keys have their respective key signatures, which correlate with the ionian mode and the aeolian mode respectively but that does not mean they are one and the same. They have different names for a reason!

And that reason is that modal music has completely different "rules" (as you might call them) than tonal music does.

You'd probably be better off associating a major key with the major scale and a minor key with the natural minor scale. You'll get a lot less confused when it comes to modes. You'll also get a lot less confused when it comes to modes if you just ignore them completely until you have a strong understanding of tonal theory.

Always keep in mind, though, that unlike modal music, tonal music isn't confined to it's key signature, you can use accidentals. Chromaticism is a great thing! The only thing you're really confined to in a monotonal song is the tonic chord. You can even alter that, but everything should revolve around it.

Quote by rockingamer2
Yes, but diminished is "minor" because of the flat third.

But I should have explained it better than what I said originally. My bad.
Major is major, minor is minor, diminished is diminished, augmented is augmented. The locrian mode is not a minor mode because it contains a b3, it's a diminished mode because it contains a b3 AND a b5.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Jul 9, 2010,
#14
Quote by food1010
unlike modal music, tonal music isn't confined to it's key signature, you can use accidentals.


You're describing composition practices from ancient times and using that as a strict definition for "modal"

a mistake and misleading IMO.

learning modes today doesn't necessitate being confined to the "rules" governing ancient composition practices .

When you're looking at compositional practices for precedent in how to approach writing, it makes sense to include recent/current practices as well.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 10, 2010,
#15
Quote by GuitarMunky
You're describing composition practices from ancient times and using that as a strict definition for "modal"

a mistake and misleading IMO.

learning modes today doesn't necessitate being confined to the "rules" governing ancient composition practices . (Though It's good to be aware of the history)

When you're looking at compositional practices for precedent in how to approach writing, it makes sense to include recent/current practices as well.
Sure, I guess you're right.

My point was, if you're going to write a song in F# Aeolian, you aren't really going to use G naturals as then it would either suggest F# Phrygian or be modally ambiguous between Aeolian and Phrygian.

That was my point.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Jul 10, 2010,