#1
Hey Ug!
I learnt this scale a few years back, based loosely on music I'd learnt, and attempted to figure it out by ear. I've played the majority of my guitar playing years with this scaleular pattern, and sweeps based on it, and box patterns etc. I was just wondering if it's even a real scale.
Only recently have I started to steer away from using it as much.

---12-10-8-------------
--------------12-10-9--
-------------------------10-9-7-------
---------------------------------10-9-7------
--------------------------------------------11-8-7--------
-----------------------------------------------------10-8-7-5- and the same back up.

------------------8h12-
-------------10----
----------9------
------10-------------
--12----------------
------------------ and the same back down.

Standard tuning.

UG, what scale and arpeggio are these or mode are they in etc.?
-------------------------------------------
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Guitar(s): .Shecter Tempest EXTREMEEEEEE
--------------Maton CW-80

Amplification: Randall RG75 G3
Last edited by Nimbus456 at Jul 9, 2010,
#3
the scale looks like A harmonic minor to me, the sweep is an A minor arpeggio
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#4
yes sir it is harmonic minor, which is just aeolian with an altered 7th.
Originally Posted by StewieSwan
schtick_bomb is actually a Tare. An evil race of aliens from the planet Nibiru who have come to fight the power of Jesus Christ.


#5
Sweet as, thanks! (:
-------------------------------------------
Gear:

Guitar(s): .Shecter Tempest EXTREMEEEEEE
--------------Maton CW-80

Amplification: Randall RG75 G3
#6
Quote by schtick_bomb
yes sir it is harmonic minor, which is just the natural minor scale with an altered 7th.


fixed.

technically, it wouldn't be wrong to say that it's the aeolian mode with a raised seventh, but don't get into the habit of thinking that the aeolian mode and the natural minor scale are the same thing, because they're not -- there's a reason there are two different names.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#7
Quote by AeolianWolf
fixed.

technically, it wouldn't be wrong to say that it's the aeolian mode with a raised seventh, but don't get into the habit of thinking that the aeolian mode and the natural minor scale are the same thing, because they're not -- there's a reason there are two different names.



whats the difference between natural minor and aeolian mode? aside from natural minor is "tonal" music.
#8
Quote by Coagulation
whats the difference between natural minor and aeolian mode? aside from natural minor is "tonal" music.
There you go.

Seriously though, the natural minor scale is a scale and the aeolian mode is a mode. Aeolian isn't just a fancy name for a regular sounding scale. There's a reason they have different names.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#9
'Aeolian' is the term for a section of music that conforms to the notes of the descending form of the melodic minor scale. If it used any of the other notes from the other minor scales it would just be in a minor key.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJfAaa7RBg8

Some of this piece is in the Aeolian mode, with modal cadences (v-i)
#10
Quote by griffRG7321
'Aeolian' is the term for a section of music that conforms to the notes of the descending form of the melodic minor scale. If it used any of the other notes from the other minor scales it would just be in a minor key.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJfAaa7RBg8

Some of this piece is in the Aeolian mode, with modal cadences (v-i)


see, i would say that's still in the minor key. the way you say it, it's like you don't even consider natural minor to be tonal, or even its own scale.

i can't really argue with you, though, because it's not incorrect to say that a certain part of this is in aeolian. it just makes less sense to analyze it as being in a key and a mode, when one could very well say it is simply in a key.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#11
Quote by food1010
There you go.

Seriously though, the natural minor scale is a scale and the aeolian mode is a mode. Aeolian isn't just a fancy name for a regular sounding scale. There's a reason they have different names.


A mode is a scale.

and modal music IS tonal.


Quote by griffRG7321
'Aeolian' is the term for a section of music that conforms to the notes of the descending form of the melodic minor scale.


which is commonly and more simply referred to as the minor scale (or natural minor).
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 10, 2010,
#12
Quote by GuitarMunky
A mode is a scale.


not until defined with a starting pitch. if we're discussing the entities known as 'the major scale' and 'the ionian mode', we're talking about modes. once we have a starting pitch, the intervals do their part and fill in the rest of the notes, we have a concrete set -- i.e., a scale.

Quote by GuitarMunky
and modal music IS tonal.


well, yes, in the same sense that it also has a key, or in the sense that it is not atonal. but these definitions are separate from the distinctions we make of the same type in what is referred to as "tonal music".
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#13
i really havnt seen anyone explaine a definitive fundamental differences between the two yet.

just alot of nitpicking irrelevant details.

modes always come off to me as extremely simple concepts but they are shrouded in ambiguity.
Last edited by Coagulation at Jul 10, 2010,
#14
Quote by AeolianWolf
not until defined with a starting pitch.


Like any scale. Major and minor included.

Quote by AeolianWolf

well, yes, in the same sense that it also has a key, or in the sense that it is not atonal. but these definitions are separate from the distinctions we make of the same type in what is referred to as "tonal music".


Well, it's a matter of being aware that the term means more than just a particular period in musical practice..

to talk about modal music in a strict sense like that ignores all of the compositional practices that came after. modes were used far after the Gregorian chant days.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 10, 2010,
#15
Quote by food1010
There you go.

Seriously though, the natural minor scale is a scale and the aeolian mode is a mode. Aeolian isn't just a fancy name for a regular sounding scale. There's a reason they have different names.



i know! thats why im asking what the reason is!
#16
Quote by Coagulation
i know! thats why im asking what the reason is!


quite simply...

compositional practices evolved. with that often comes new terminology.....

the thing to remember is that one thing was built off the other. it's not a complete break .... its development...... an expansion.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 10, 2010,
#17
Quote by GuitarMunky
quite simply...

compositional practices evolved. with that often comes new terminology.....

the thing to remember is that one thing was built off the other. it's not a complete break .... its development.



so there is no fundamental difference?
only a change in interpretation?

i am so confused


So if i take the Scale of Gmajor and i play a progression of notes that resolve to E minor i am playing in the key of E minor

but its not gonna be Aeolian ?

what would be the requirements for that to be defined as Aeolian?
what would need to be done differently?
Last edited by Coagulation at Jul 10, 2010,
#18
Quote by GuitarMunky
quite simply...

compositional practices evolved. with that often comes new terminology.....

the thing to remember is that one thing was built off the other. it's not a complete break .... its development...... an expansion.
I actually really agree with this explanation.

If you want a more concrete distinction though let's look at it this way (keep in mind this may be over-generalized):

In tonal music you write based on a key. This "key" is defined by it's tonic (a major or minor triad). It has a respective key signature, but that's really mainly for ease of writing/reading sheet music. You can go anywhere as long as it works to highlight the characteristics of the key.

In modal music, you write based on/within a mode. This mode has a set of notes and a root note. The tonic chord is less important, although modes are generally characterized by the quality of their tonic (e.g. Aeolian, Phrygian and Dorian are minor modes). Like tonal music, you might want to try to highlight the characteristics/color tones of the mode.

That's the way I like to differentiate the two. GuitarMunky had a great point though that the difference between the two isn't necessarily black and white, it's more of a development.

Quote by Coagulation
so there is no fundamental difference?
only a change in interpretation?

i am so confused

So if i take the Scale of Gmajor and i play a progression of notes that resolve to E minor i am playing in the key of E minor

but its not gonna be Aeolian ?

what would be the requirements for that to be defined as Aeolian?
what would need to be done differently?
He did say "compositional practices evolved," thus describing that it there is a fundamental difference.

If it's in the key of E minor it's not in E aeolian. Simple as that. If it's in E aeolian, it's not in E minor (or G major for that matter).

I think an important thing to study in order to understand the differences is historical context. I don't have any resources myself (merely picking up tidbits here and there), but if anyone has a book or something that goes over the historical evolution in a comparative sense it would be great if you could share that with us.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Jul 10, 2010,
#19
Quote by Coagulation
so there is no fundamental difference?
only a change in interpretation?

i am so confused


So if i take the Scale of Gmajor and i play a progression of notes that resolve to E minor i am playing in the key of E minor


more or less ........yes

Quote by Coagulation

but its not gonna be Aeolian ?


it could be. depends on how you treat the V chord.

Quote by Coagulation

what would be the requirements for that to be defined as Aeolian?
what would need to be done differently?


Well, an aeolian piece would utilize the minor v ( which occurs naturally) as opposed to the Major V ( which is a result of raising the leading tone/3rd of the v chord).

again, this has to do with compositional practices.


if you're not familiar with what I'm talking about.... your honestly better getting a good music history/ appreciation book and reading up on it yourself.

The history of compositional practices can't be thoroughly explained in one thread.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 10, 2010,
#20
thanks for trying to clear things up for me guys. i really appreciate the time you all take to help me.
#21
Quote by food1010
I think an important thing to study in order to understand the differences is historical context. I don't have any resources myself (merely picking up tidbits here and there), but if anyone has a book or something that goes over the historical evolution in a comparative sense it would be great if you could share that with us.

I don't have a comparison, but I do have a post detailing a brief history of modes and how they came to be as they are today... let me go find it

EDIT: I think the thread it was in got deleted... so give me some time andI'll type it up again.
Last edited by DiminishedFifth at Jul 10, 2010,
#22
AHA! Found it!

Here's a really, really summed up version of the history of our music:

Back in BC times, before we got into tonality like we have, the Greeks were the first to make music. These are where most of (if not all) of the modes originated. They were named after the different Greek provinces that figured them out using Pythagoras' system. For example, Lydian was named after the Lydian Greeks, as was Mixolydian.

Back then, what we now call Lydian (I think it was called Hypo-Ionian then) was the standard (did Pythagoras make this one?). They preferred it because it was completely symmetrical. You can split it in half. Keep in mind, they didn't have chords. They did chants and stuff of that nature (think Gregorian Chants).

Eventually someone made our current Major scale (I can't remember the name for it at the time... I think it was Ionian, but don't quote me on that) by taking the Lydian mode and starting on the fifth degree. Now, this wasn't the standard, but it was made.

Eventually, in the 1400's a Latin guy named Fux was making a book detailing all the modes and got the names mixed up. What he thought they used as their standard (remember, it was our current Lydian) was the Major scale. So, he wrote it and it got published and passed around, and thus, the Major scale became our standard for harmony.

ANYONE: if any of this is wrong, please correct me.

Credit to Griff for bumping the thread it was in and telling me that what I had before Hypo-Ionian was wrong :3
#23
Quote by DiminishedFifth


Back then, what we now call Lydian (I think it was called Hypo-Ionian then) was the standard (did Pythagoras make this one?). They preferred it because it was completely symmetrical. You can split it in half. Keep in mind, they didn't have chords. They did chants and stuff of that nature (think Gregorian Chants).


Credit to Griff for bumping the thread it was in and telling me that what I had before Hypo-Ionian was wrong :3


Lol i missed something out. The plagal form (hypo) of dorian is not the same as the authentic form of A Aeolian. Both have different 'final' notes and different tenor/dominant notes.

I couldn't find a diagram online so i'll just explain it.

Each mode existed in two forms, The Authentic and Plagal. The plagal form always lying a perfect fourth below the the authentic mode. The authentic form of D dorian for example is D-D (white notes) and the plagal is A-A.

The first note of each modal scale (both authentic and plagal) is called it's 'final'. Therefore hypo dorian is not the same as A Aeolian. The Greeks then went on to single out a note of secondary importance in each of the modes called the tenor or as the dominant because of it's important in chanting. This note wasn;t the same in both forms of the mode nor was it the same interval from the final.

Different modes were also characterised by certain patterns of notes/melodic figures.

But that's another story for another day.

All of this information is pretty useless now anyway

I hate mode threads.
#25
some good info there.

^ interesting how the words "mode" and "key" are used in the same sentence to describe it.
and how borrowing chords isn't restricted to "keys".... but includes the parallel modes as well.

must be something to it.

* note to the "modes and scales are completely different" crowd.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 13, 2010,
#26
Quote by GuitarMunky
^ interesting how the words "mode" and "key" are used in the same sentence to describe it.
and how borrowing chords isn't restricted to "keys".... but includes the parallel modes as well.
Sure. You can borrow things from the modes. That doesn't mean you are using them though. For example, if I used a natural 6 in a minor key that doesn't automatically mean the song is now in dorian. I just used a note borrowed from the dorian mode. I see nothing wrong with that logic.

And as for borrowing chords, I think that's the same deal. If you use a II in a major key and you want to say it's derived from the lydian mode I think that's perfectly acceptable.

The misconception with modes in theory like this is that if you have a diatonic progression you can play each chord's respective scale/mode. For example, if you have a I IV V in C you could play C ionian, F lydian and G mixolydian. THAT is wrong. I think the idea of modal interchange in tonal music is perfectly valid (not that it's my opinion that matters, but rather the theoretical standards).
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#27
Quote by food1010
Sure. You can borrow things from the modes. That doesn't mean you are using them though. For example, if I used a natural 6 in a minor key that doesn't automatically mean the song is now in dorian. I just used a note borrowed from the dorian mode. I see nothing wrong with that logic.

And as for borrowing chords, I think that's the same deal. If you use a II in a major key and you want to say it's derived from the lydian mode I think that's perfectly acceptable.

The misconception with modes in theory like this is that if you have a diatonic progression you can play each chord's respective scale/mode. For example, if you have a I IV V in C you could play C ionian, F lydian and G mixolydian. THAT is wrong. I think the idea of modal interchange in tonal music is perfectly valid (not that it's my opinion that matters, but rather the theoretical standards).


My point is that the idea (and usage) of mode and key is intertwined. not completely separate ideas as is so often stated here in rebuttal to the usual mistake made by those that saw a webpage on the patterns and think they know about modes.
shred is gaudy music
#28
i've always read and assumed that modes are obviously made up of scales and the usage of that scale defines whether the piece is modal or not. at least thats what i've gotten so far.

/2cents
#29
Quote by food1010
Sure. You can borrow things from the modes. That doesn't mean you are using them though. For example, if I used a natural 6 in a minor key that doesn't automatically mean the song is now in dorian. I just used a note borrowed from the dorian mode. I see nothing wrong with that logic.

And as for borrowing chords, I think that's the same deal. If you use a II in a major key and you want to say it's derived from the lydian mode I think that's perfectly acceptable.

The misconception with modes in theory like this is that if you have a diatonic progression you can play each chord's respective scale/mode. For example, if you have a I IV V in C you could play C ionian, F lydian and G mixolydian. THAT is wrong. I think the idea of modal interchange in tonal music is perfectly valid (not that it's my opinion that matters, but rather the theoretical standards).


100%

i absolutely love the sound of a bV borrowed from the parallel locrian.

EDIT:

Quote by GuitarMunky
My point is that the idea (and usage) of mode and key is intertwined. not completely separate ideas as is so often stated here in rebuttal to the usual mistake made by those that saw a webpage on the patterns and think they know about modes.


well, i have two definitions for "key" one is, plainly speaking, the tonal center of a piece. naturally, a mode has to have that, otherwise the music in question would be atonal. the other is a key as it is known in the modern system of music, i.e. A major/G minor. this kind of key is separate from the modal system.

does it mean that you can't have modes in a tonal piece? absolutely not. does it mean you can't derive chords from parallel or closely related modes? absolutely not.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Last edited by AeolianWolf at Jul 13, 2010,
#30
Quote by AeolianWolf
100%

i absolutely love the sound of a bV borrowed from the parallel locrian.

EDIT:


well, i have two definitions for "key" one is, plainly speaking, the tonal center of a piece. naturally, a mode has to have that, otherwise the music in question would be atonal. the other is a key as it is known in the modern system of music, i.e. A major/G minor. this kind of key is separate from the modal system.

does it mean that you can't have modes in a tonal piece? absolutely not. does it mean you can't derive chords from parallel or closely related modes? absolutely not.


One developed from the other. Not completely separate at all, but rather..... intertwined.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 13, 2010,
#31
Quote by GuitarMunky
My point is that the idea (and usage) of mode and key is intertwined. not completely separate ideas as is so often stated here in rebuttal to the usual mistake made by those that saw a webpage on the patterns and think they know about modes.
Actually I pretty much agree with you here.

You are right that modes and keys are comparable. They both describe the tonality of a piece, or so to speak. I mean there not interchangeable, but in terms of modal interchange, keys (well, more so scales) can be borrowed from in the same sense that modes are.

Ionian and major are different in execution, but as far as modal interchange is concerned, there is really no distinction.

We're all sort of agreeing with each other in a sort of roundabout way though.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Jul 13, 2010,
#32
Quote by food1010
Actually I pretty much agree with you here.

You are right that modes and keys are comparable. They both describe the tonality of a piece, or so to speak. I mean there not interchangeable, but in terms of modal interchange, keys (well, more so scales) can be borrowed from in the same sense that modes are.

Ionian and major are different in execution, but as far as modal interchange is concerned, there is really no distinction.


Right, there couldn't be a distinction, because they are the exact same scale.

The difference in execution has to do with compositional practices from different time periods.... not the scales themselves. We are not bound to the practices of earlier times as if they were "rules". Those practices don't define the scales, they simply represent what musicians did with those scales during those times.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 13, 2010,
#33
Quote by GuitarMunky
Right, there couldn't be a distinction, because they are the exact same scale.

The difference in execution has to do with compositional practices from different time periods.... not the scales themselves. We are not bound to the practices of earlier times, though it's good to be aware of them for a broadened perspective.
Exactly.

Although of course I'd have to say that terminology is dependent on compositional practices though. For example if you used the major scale in a modern tonal context, then it would be wrong to call it the ionian mode.

Keys ARE different from modes though. To say that "this song is in A major" and "this song is in A ionian" mean the same thing is also wrong.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#34
Quote by food1010
Exactly.

Although of course I'd have to say that terminology is dependent on compositional practices though. For example if you used the major scale in a modern tonal context, then it would be wrong to call it the ionian mode.



edit: I read that quickly, thought you said "microtonal".

revised statement....

the reason you don't want to use the term "Ionian" in a modern tonal context, is because the term is obsolete. this is not true though for modes like dorian, phrygian, lydian....ect. (see below)


Quote by food1010

Keys ARE different from modes though. To say that "this song is in A major" and "this song is in A ionian" mean the same thing is also wrong.


well that's a bad example because, the Ionian mode exists today as the major scale. there is absolutely no reason to write something with that scale and call it Ionian.

this isn't the case for all the modes though....

A mode like dorian offers a something different (since the scale is unique and does not function under any other name). You may not call it a key , but like that article implies, it's really not any different. I've seen key changes referred to as change of mode.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 13, 2010,
#35
A little something to think about:

The most used 'dorian' vamp is i - IV7

But both of those chords are already in a minor key (the IV7 coming from melodic minor).

Rendering dorian obsolete?
#36
Quote by griffRG7321
A little something to think about:

The most used 'dorian' vamp is i - IV7

But both of those chords are already in a minor key (the IV7 coming from melodic minor).

Rendering dorian obsolete?


Interesting point, but Id say no, it doesn't render dorian obsolete.

Plus melodic minor gives you the leading tone which clashes over both chords.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 13, 2010,