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#1
Dm - Am - C - Em

What scale would go well for lead during those chords and to ''get out'' of this riff after the Em.

Cmajor? D dorian?

Much appreciated.
#2
Quote by nev474
Dm - Am - C - Em

What scale would go well for lead during those chords and to ''get out'' of this riff after the Em.

Cmajor? D dorian?

Much appreciated.



D dorian ... D minor pentatonic ..... D minor blues

you could play an A minor blues scale shape over that as well. (and Am pent)
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 13, 2010,
#3
It all depends on the resolution but it's either going to be C major or A minor.
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#4
A minor seems most likely, so an Amin chord should do the trick.

if your resolution is Am, then C major and D dorian are out of the question unless you want to suggest two tonics.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#5
I suggest you go eastern on it with a nice A Harmonic Minor Scale - A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, A. Just make sure to hit the G#, that's what gives it it's flavour. And don't worry about it messing with your chords it's a sure fire winner.
#6
As is it resolves to Dm (assuming its a repeated pattern)

so D dorian

as far as how to get out of it. Thats the artists decision. I would consider whats going on in the rest of the song. do you have other sections to this song? or just this 1 progression?
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 13, 2010,
#7
Quote by Wing00
I suggest you go eastern on it with a nice A Harmonic Minor Scale - A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, A. Just make sure to hit the G#, that's what gives it it's flavour. And don't worry about it messing with your chords it's a sure fire winner.


it'd make far more sense to change the Em to Emaj in that case, and i see little "eastern" feel in the harmonic minor scale. don't confuse it with its modes.

Quote by GuitarMunky
As is it resolves to Dm (assuming its a repeated pattern)

so D dorian

as far as how to get out of it. Thats the artists decision. I would consider whats going on in the rest of the song. do you have other sections to this song? or just this 1 progression?


not necessarily. who's to say that a four bar chord progression HAS to resolve on the first chord played? he could make it resolve on the Cmaj in the second bar of the pattern. again - the artist's decision.

his final chord is Em, which makes me believe that the most likely choice is A minor. but, of course, without his input on the resolution, there is little valid advice we can give.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#8
Quote by AeolianWolf
it'd make far more sense to change the Em to Emaj in that case, and i see little "eastern" feel in the harmonic minor scale. don't confuse it with its modes.


not necessarily. who's to say that a four bar chord progression HAS to resolve on the first chord played? he could make it resolve on the Cmaj in the second bar of the pattern. again - the artist's decision.

his final chord is Em, which makes me believe that the most likely choice is A minor. but, of course, without his input on the resolution, there is little valid advice we can give.



play it and listen rather than theorize.
shred is gaudy music
#9
Quote by GuitarMunky
As is it resolves to Dm (assuming its a repeated pattern)
Not necessarily. The first chord of a repetition doesn't have to be the tonic. In fact, I feel like the Dm functions as a iv. That gives you iv I III v in A minor. Seems logical to me.

Quote by GuitarMunky
play it and listen rather than theorize.
I came to my conclusion by playing it.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#10
Quote by food1010
Not necessarily. The first chord of a repetition doesn't have to be the tonic. In fact, I feel like the Dm functions as a iv. That gives you iv I III v in A minor. Seems logical to me.

I came to my conclusion by playing it.



seems like your justifying it with theory not ..... sound.

lets hear you play and resolve the progression.
shred is gaudy music
#11
Quote by food1010
I came to my conclusion by playing it.


as did i. go one chord further and play the Am after the Dm. unless TS tells us otherwise, it's equally valid that the progression is in A minor.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#12
Quote by GuitarMunky
seems like your justifying it with theory not ..... sound.

lets hear you play and resolve the progression.
I'm not understanding what your point is.

1) I played it.
2) I tried ending it on Am (since the chords are diatonic to A minor) and it sounded resolved.
3) I tried ending it on Dm since you suggested D dorian, but it sounded unresolved to me.
3) I then deduced that Dm seems reasonable as a iv, C as a bIII, and Em as a v.

Also what do you mean by the second part? You want me to record something with this progression and resolve it to Am?
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#13
Quote by AeolianWolf
as did i. go one chord further and play the Am after the Dm. unless TS tells us otherwise, it's equally valid that the progression is in A minor.


lets hear it.

as far as where the TS is taking it...... it seems he doesn't know so he's asking us. I'm not going to argue over a guess..... I picked the context that was given in the OP, and give my advice based on that.


Quote by AeolianWolf



who's to say that a four bar chord progression HAS to resolve on the first chord played? he could make it resolve on the Cmaj in the second bar of the pattern. again - the artist's decision.
.


I specified "repeating pattern" for a reason....

When someone asks about a chord progression to solo over, it's fairly safe to assume that it's a repeating pattern.

The repeating pattern as posted by the TS does resolve on D minor. (audio example in my profile)




Quote by food1010
You want me to record something with this progression and resolve it to Am?


Yeah, lets hear it.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 13, 2010,
#15
Quote by AeolianWolf
http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/AeolianWolf/music/play866236

i probably could have voiced the chords better, but i just played the keys that were closest the keys i was already playing.



You didn't repeat the 4 bar pattern. Were talking about a solo section right....thats the context.

Like repeat that 4 bar phrase but then end on Am instead of Dm....
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 13, 2010,
#16
Quote by GuitarMunky
The repeating pattern as posted by the TS does resolve on D minor. (audio example in my profile)
It does resolve. Still, that's not the direction I would take it.

I don't feel like recording at the moment but I'll make a Guitar Pro file so you can hear where I'm coming from.

Actually, how about you just play ||: Dm Am C Em :|| Am.

To me, I hear similar characteristics of a circle progression. Just like ||: Dm G C C :|| and ||: Am Dm G C :|| and even (possibly) ||: Em Am Dm G :||
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#17
Having played it using a number of different voicings i'd say it's in A minor. It just doesn't sound resolved on the D minor chord.
#18
Quote by food1010
It does resolve. Still, that's not the direction I would take it.

I don't feel like recording at the moment but I'll make a Guitar Pro file so you can hear where I'm coming from.

Actually, how about you just play ||: Dm Am C Em :|| Am.

To me, I hear similar characteristics of a circle progression. Just like ||: Dm G C C :|| and ||: Am Dm G C :|| and even (possibly) ||: Em Am Dm G :||



Well I know what it sounds like anyway. You could of course end on the A minor, but the repeating progression resolves to Dm.



Those progressions you listed...

Dm G C C

clearly ii V I I in C major

Am Dm G C

i iv VII III in A minor


Em Am Dm G

iii vi ii V in C

these are VERY clear.


Quote by griffRG7321
Having played it using a number of different voicings i'd say it's in A minor. It just doesn't sound resolved on the D minor chord.



I totally disagree. and voicings are irrelevant.

you have 4 repeating chords.

it starts (and therefore ends in this context) on Dm.

it is what it is.


also if you guys want to say its in the "key" of Am, wouldn't that imply the use of a leading tone in the V chord?
I mean nobody said its in A aeolian right?
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 13, 2010,
#19
If i have E7 to A repeated that doesn't mean it's in E mixolydian. The resolution doesnt have to be the first chord.
#20
if you want chord scales:
Dm--play D dorian
Am--play A aeolian
CM--C ionian (or maybe lydian)
Em-E phrygian

If you want an easier approach, use notes from CM (but don't be afraid to go out if it sounds good) and emphasize chord tones for an in sound, and non chord tones for an out sound. Don't feel like you have to be diatonic either; just musical.
#21
Quote by tehREALcaptain
if you want chord scales:
Dm--play D dorian
Am--play A aeolian
CM--C ionian (or maybe lydian)
Em-E phrygian
Uh, no.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#22
Quote by tehREALcaptain
if you want chord scales:
Dm--play D dorian
Am--play A aeolian
CM--C ionian (or maybe lydian)
Em-E phrygian

If you want an easier approach, use notes from CM (but don't be afraid to go out if it sounds good) and emphasize chord tones for an in sound, and non chord tones for an out sound. Don't feel like you have to be diatonic either; just musical.


^ do not listen to that guy.
#23
Quote by griffRG7321
If i have E7 to A repeated that doesn't mean it's in E mixolydian. The resolution doesnt have to be the first chord.


okay, so you have 2 chords.... like a vamp right?

lets use your example, |: E7 - A |

how do you determine the key/mode?


remember its a 2 chord vamp. Thats all we have to deal with. no guesses as to where it "might" go.... lets just talk about where it is and nothing else.
shred is gaudy music
#25
Quote by griffRG7321
That's in A major, i can actually give an example of when that's used if you like.


I've heard V7- I quite a few times but thanks.

thats not what I asked though......

If you have a 2 chord vamp..... how do you determine the key/mode?

any 2 chord vamp.

|Dm7 - G|
|E7 - A|
|Dm7 - Em|

actually any vamp period.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 13, 2010,
#26
There's no set way of determining what key a vamp is in. It would all depend on what the chords were.
#27
Quote by griffRG7321
There's no set way of determining what key a vamp is in. It would all depend on what the chords were.



well for example

Dm7 G7

typical dorian vamp right?

or would you say its ii V in C major?
shred is gaudy music
#29
Quote by griffRG7321
As i mentioned in a previous thread thats i IV7 in D minor.



So its in the "key" of Dm?

What scale would you use to solo over it?
shred is gaudy music
#31
Quote by GuitarMunky
If you have a 2 chord vamp..... how do you determine the key/mode?
The same way you would for a 12-chord progression. You listen to how the chords function and where the resolution is.

In many cases, "2 chord vamps" like that are pretty tonally ambiguous by themselves. They can often be easily swayed in a few different directions depending on the melody and other surrounding harmony.

Regarding your first example, it would be very easy to treat that as C major. But what if you have no intent to make it C major? You can use melodic techniques to change the implied function of the chord/extend the chord, such as using F# instead of F over the G chord, to avoid the G7 - C sound. You could use drones, or even simply accent certain notes. You have a lot of leeway with simpler vamps like that, given no other context.

Quote by GuitarMunky
well for example

Dm7 G7

typical dorian vamp right?

or would you say its ii V in C major?
I'd say it's in C major. Depending on the sound I'm going for I might not resolve to C major, but the chords function so strongly as ii7 and V7 as in a ii V I progression/turnaround that it's hard for me to call it a different key unless context proves otherwise.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Jul 13, 2010,
#32
Quote by AeolianWolf
it'd make far more sense to change the Em to Emaj in that case, and i see little "eastern" feel in the harmonic minor scale. don't confuse it with its modes.


Um whether you see it or not isn't my problem, apparently you haven't heard much eastern music because the harmonic minor is also occasionally referred to as the Mohammedan scale, as it's upper tetrachord corresponds to the Hijaz jins, commonly found in Middle-Eastern music. The harmonic minor scale as a whole is described as Nahawand-Hijaz in Arabic nomenclature, or as Bûselik Hicaz in Turkish nomenclature.

So there
Everything is divisible by metal- Michael Angel Batio
Last edited by Wing00 at Jul 13, 2010,
#33
Quote by GuitarMunky
As is it resolves to Dm (assuming its a repeated pattern)

so D dorian

as far as how to get out of it. Thats the artists decision. I would consider whats going on in the rest of the song. do you have other sections to this song? or just this 1 progression?


Nothing else is really set in stone. We've thought about putting a power chord riff over it for the chorus but we'll see what happens.

It's pretty damn hard to get people together to actually play.

But thanks for the input guys.
#34
Quote by Wing00
Um whether you see it or not isn't my problem, apparently you haven't heard much eastern music because the harmonic minor is also occasionally referred to as the Mohammedan scale, as it's upper tetrachord corresponds to the Hijaz jins, commonly found in Middle-Eastern music. The harmonic minor scale as a whole is described as Nahawand-Hijaz in Arabic nomenclature, or as Bûselik Hicaz in Turkish nomenclature.

So there
The thing that makes it sound "eastern", the augmented second between the b6 and 7, was actually avoided by classical composers in the melody (they invented the melodic minor to avoid that augmented second). So in the way that the harmonic minor is conventionally used it does not sound eastern.
#36
Quote by griffRG7321
D melodic minor (both ascending and descending)

I knew you were going to say that.

seems like you're attempting to deny the relevance of modes by implying that you could ignore them and just use the major minor key system in its place.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 13, 2010,
#38
Quote by GuitarMunky
I knew you were going to say that.

seems like you're attempting to deny the relevance of modes by implying that you could ignore them and just use the major minor key system in its place. I can't agree to that.


Not all modes, just that particular progression
#39
Quote by griffRG7321
Not all modes, just that particular progression


What good is that? actually I know what good is..... it allows you to appear as if you won an argument.

But seriously I was trying to make a point and you knew it. Your response was meant to be uncooperative.


Quote by nev474
Nothing else is really set in stone. We've thought about putting a power chord riff over it for the chorus but we'll see what happens.

It's pretty damn hard to get people together to actually play.

But thanks for the input guys.



here is a suggestion ....

try writing the whole song before you worry about soloing over it.

That will save us from arguing over a hypothetical. context is everything.

Quote by food1010
T

I'd say it's in C major. Depending on the sound I'm going for I might not resolve to C major, but the chords function so strongly as ii7 and V7 as in a ii V I progression/turnaround that it's hard for me to call it a different key unless context proves otherwise.


Well, then it would be a ii-V that never results to I ( remember its a vamp..... it's not going anywhere else).

I would say that it's clearly a dorian vamp.

are you suggesting that you don't believe in "modal" vamps, and that they are all actually just tonal (as in Major/minor) progressions that don't resolve?
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 13, 2010,
#40
Certainly sounds like A minor to me. And as a Muse fan I'm obligated to play an E major the second time through.
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
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