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#1
Is it possible to use the pre-amp of 1 head and the power-amp of another head on 1 cab?

And if it's possible how do you do that?

Thank in advance
Gear:
----------------------
Jack and Danny Brothers Ls-5
Ibanez Gsa 60
----------------------
Zoom g9.2tt (for sale (NL))
----------------------
Blackheart Little Giant
#2
My guess is...

Amp #1 Preamp out > Amp #2 Power amp in > cab
Epiphone Dot
DIY Esquire w/Neovin Power Rock pickup
Vox AC30VR 212
Arion MTE-1 (LED clipping diodes added)
Vox Tonelab LE
Roland SDE1000 delay

Quote by DaMarsbarPerson
By high-gain I don't mean stupid stuff. I just mean styles like Motley Crue or Iron Maiden
#3
yeah it is. Some people like using mesa pres and marshall power through a marshall cab.

But it's a very expensive way of doing things.
- Ibanez S470 (2004)
- late 70's vintage Fender Stratocaster (USA)
- VOX VT100 Amp
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- MXR Micro Amp
#4
I wanted to buy a bigger head with 3 channels but there are only 120 watt heads. So I thought it would be a nice idea to use the pre amp of a bigger amp head and use the power amp of my little giant so I can still play at bedroom volumes.
But I really have no clue how I should do this.
Gear:
----------------------
Jack and Danny Brothers Ls-5
Ibanez Gsa 60
----------------------
Zoom g9.2tt (for sale (NL))
----------------------
Blackheart Little Giant
#5
Or you could get a nice standalone preamp and a small poweramp, so you don't have to have a head burning through power tubes which are doing **** all.

Something like this:

http://www.mesaboogie.com/Product_Info/Rackmount-Preamps/TriAxis/triaxis.html

edit: I see you are gonna use the poweramp of your little giant... I think that might be possible if it has some decent headroom. Not familiar with that amp, but I don't think it has an FX loop.
Gear:
- Bugera 333
- VJ & VJ cab
- Jackson JS30
- TS9

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Last edited by Kanthras at Jul 18, 2010,
#6
I don't think it has one either, but that's a pretty easy mod.
Epiphone Dot
DIY Esquire w/Neovin Power Rock pickup
Vox AC30VR 212
Arion MTE-1 (LED clipping diodes added)
Vox Tonelab LE
Roland SDE1000 delay

Quote by DaMarsbarPerson
By high-gain I don't mean stupid stuff. I just mean styles like Motley Crue or Iron Maiden
#7
Quote by MortifiedLizard
I don't think it has one either, but that's a pretty easy mod.
True, he doesn't really need a loop either. Just a line in straight to the power section.
Gear:
- Bugera 333
- VJ & VJ cab
- Jackson JS30
- TS9

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~ BUM: For all things extinguishing

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#8
Quote by Kanthras
Or you could get a nice standalone preamp and a small poweramp, so you don't have to have a head burning through power tubes which are doing **** all.


I'd be more worried about the OT not having any load
If you want to do that you need a dummy load for amp #1
#9
you still need a load on the second amp (assuming a valve amp). if you just have the preamp running into the other power amp, but the speaker out isnt connected to anything, bad things may happen. so if you have a stereo cab, then sure it could work.

but the LG doesnt have an effects loop. unless you have had one installed, it wont have a power amp in.

also, pretty much any amp with 120W of power isnt meant to be having power amp distortion. just use the amp with the master volume down. it might not sound as good as when turned up, but that shouldnt be a huge deal.
#10
Does a low wattage power amp excist? I only saw a mesa boogie but that was waaaaaay to expensive.

And if not, would it be possible to make a effects loop for my little giant?
Gear:
----------------------
Jack and Danny Brothers Ls-5
Ibanez Gsa 60
----------------------
Zoom g9.2tt (for sale (NL))
----------------------
Blackheart Little Giant
#11
Quote by niels-uiterwaal
Does a low wattage power amp excist? I only saw a mesa boogie but that was waaaaaay to expensive.
Probably exists somewhere. In general though, dedicated poweramps are not low wattage unfortunately. Also, if you mean the Mesa I linked, that was a preamp (a crazy expensive and complicated one, but still).
And if not, would it be possible to make a effects loop for my little giant?
Sure. Got soldering skillz?
Gear:
- Bugera 333
- VJ & VJ cab
- Jackson JS30
- TS9

Bugera Users Militia. We are horrible people. With a sprinkler fetish.
~ BUM: For all things extinguishing

Rackmount Tube Amp Project <<< Updates!
#12
Quote by niels-uiterwaal
Does a low wattage power amp excist? I only saw a mesa boogie but that was waaaaaay to expensive.

And if not, would it be possible to make a effects loop for my little giant?


To do this you just need a THD Hot Plate or any load box with a line-out feature. I use a THD & set it to "load" (to simulate a speaker hooked up to the first amp), & use the line-out on the Hot Plate (which is a guitar level signal, not a speaker level signal) to go into a separate power amp. I use a little Crate Power Block power amp that I got brand new at Guitar Center for $99 US. With this setup, you can get not only cranked pre-amp distortion, but cranked power amp/output stage distortion from the first amp, & regulate the overall volume with the 2nd power amp. That's basically how Eddie Van Halen did it in the old days!
You can even use an old home stereo receiver as a power amp-you only need clean amplification for the line-out signal. I used to use one years ago, & it works fine. You may have to make or modify your speaker wiring for the stereo though. You just have to butcher a guitar speaker cable & put a different end on one end of the cable.
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Last edited by riffhog at Jul 18, 2010,
#13
Quote by riffhog
To do this you just need a THD Hot Plate or any load box with a line-out feature. I use a THD & set it to "load" (to simulate a speaker hooked up to the first amp), & use the line-out (which is a guitar level signal, not a speaker level signal) to go into a separate power amp. I use a little Crate Power Block power amp that I got brand new at Guitar Center for $99 US. With this setup, you can get not only cranked pre-amp distortion, but cranked power amp/output stage distortion from the first amp, & regulate the overall volume with the 2nd power amp. That's basically how Eddie Van Halen did it in the old days!
You can even use an old home stereo receiver as a power amp-you only need clean amplification for the line-out signal. I used to use one years ago, & it works fine. You may have to make or modify your speaker wiring for the stereo though. You just have to butcher a guitar speaker cable & put a different end on one end of the cable.

Please don't use a Hi-Fi amp/speaker for a guitar preamp signal, unless you're going for REALLY trebly and fizzy sounds. And using a Hotplate to get a preamp signal (what TS is looking for) is a pretty huge waste of money. You can just pull the output tubes and get the same effect.
Gear:
- Bugera 333
- VJ & VJ cab
- Jackson JS30
- TS9

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#14
Quote by Kanthras
Please don't use a Hi-Fi amp/speaker for a guitar preamp signal, unless you're going for REALLY trebly and fizzy sounds. And using a Hotplate to get a preamp signal (what TS is looking for) is a pretty huge waste of money. You can just pull the output tubes and get the same effect.


Have you ever done this? I have, & it works, no matter what you say. You need a pre-amp out jack on the slave amp, & a grounded jack for the power amp in on the slave amp.

Just pulling the output tubes? WTF? Unless you know EXACTLY what's going on inside a particular amp, that's a REALLY BAD idea. Just because it may have worked for you once & the amp didn't toast the transformer or catch on fire immediately does NOT mean it's OK. Eventually, you'd most likely have a transformer issue.

I was just offering up what I feel is a good option that gives much more control over your tone, & requires no amp mods. Having a device like a Hot Plate is not a waste of money IMO, because there's so many different things that can be done with it. By saving some money on a power amp, a Hot Plate becomes affordable, esp used.
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Riffhog for President


Quote by Cathbard
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#15
Quote by riffhog
Have you ever done this? I have, & it works, no matter what you say. You need a pre-amp out jack on the slave amp, & a grounded jack for the power amp in on the slave amp.
I didn't dispute the fact that it works. I know it works. I just think it sounds awful.
Just pulling the output tubes? WTF? Unless you know EXACTLY what's going on inside a particular amp, that's a REALLY BAD idea. Just because it may have worked for you once & the amp didn't toast the transformer or catch on fire immediately does NOT mean it's OK. Eventually, you'd most likely have a transformer issue.
Uhh.. How are you gonna toast the transformer without tubes to toast it?
Gear:
- Bugera 333
- VJ & VJ cab
- Jackson JS30
- TS9

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#16
Quote by Kanthras
Please don't use a Hi-Fi amp/speaker for a guitar preamp signal, unless you're going for REALLY trebly and fizzy sounds. And using a Hotplate to get a preamp signal (what TS is looking for) is a pretty huge waste of money. You can just pull the output tubes and get the same effect.

Sorry man. I'm going with Riffhog, Jof and Squit on this one.
#17
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Sorry man. I'm going with Riffhog, Jof and Squit on this one.
On which issue? Using Hi-Fi as poweramplification or on the Hotplate thing?
Gear:
- Bugera 333
- VJ & VJ cab
- Jackson JS30
- TS9

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~ BUM: For all things extinguishing

Rackmount Tube Amp Project <<< Updates!
#18
Quote by Kanthras
I didn't dispute the fact that it works. I know it works. I just think it sounds awful.
Uhh.. How are you gonna toast the transformer without tubes to toast it?



OK, genius. There's other things connected to the transformer besides tubes. Before I responded to your tube-yanking post, I called my friend who has his own amp repair business & asked him about it, pretty much already knowing the answer. Like I said, if you don't KNOW THE EXACT SIGNAL PATH, you're risking transformer damage. Depends on the amp, but for the most part, he simply said DON'T DO IT! Just because you dash blindly across the street without looking one time & don't get drilled by a car, doesn't mean it's a sound practice

If your experience with a home stereo receiver was bad, I'm beginning to understand why. If you're not smart enough to keep your tubes in your amp, most likely you're not smart enough to correctly hook up a receiver as a power amp. I'm f#@king done with you.
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Riffhog for President


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#19
Quote by riffhog
OK, genius. There's other things connected to the transformer besides tubes. Before I responded to your tube-yanking post, I called my friend who has his own amp repair business & asked him about it, pretty much already knowing the answer. Like I said, if you don't KNOW THE EXACT SIGNAL PATH, you're risking transformer damage. Depends on the amp, but for the most part, he simply said DON'T DO IT! Just because you dash blindly across the street without looking one time & don't get drilled by a car, doesn't mean it's a sound practice

If your experience with a home stereo receiver was bad, I'm beginning to understand why. If you're not smart enough to keep your tubes in your amp, most likely you're not smart enough to correctly hook up a receiver as a power amp. I'm f#@king done with you.
Whoa, calm down man. The info was from a source I consider reliable, and I haven't had personal experience running an amp without tubes. Pretty much that whole post you made there was shoving things in my mouth I didn't say. Good job.

I didn't say using Hi-Fi amps as poweramps doesn't work. I said I think it sounds bad. Hi-Fi amps and speakers aim to reproduce sound as faithfully as possible. This is pretty much the opposite of what guitar amps/speakers do. They add coloration. Have you ever heard a raw preamp signal? It's very very bright and very fizzy. Guitar preamps are not made to be plugged into a Hi-Fi amp, it WILL sound like crap.

edit: also, which transformer are you talking about? The OT is only connected to the output tubes (and in some amps the NFL).
Gear:
- Bugera 333
- VJ & VJ cab
- Jackson JS30
- TS9

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~ BUM: For all things extinguishing

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Last edited by Kanthras at Jul 18, 2010,
#20
dude...do you ever get tired of like being all wrong and stuff?
If I were you i'd dump every book you've read and all your reliable sources and find some new years.
it's not too late to start over.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#21
But what I want is possible if you have 2 amp heads with both an effects loop, is that right?
Gear:
----------------------
Jack and Danny Brothers Ls-5
Ibanez Gsa 60
----------------------
Zoom g9.2tt (for sale (NL))
----------------------
Blackheart Little Giant
#22
yea cant you plug into the effects loop on the second amp? itll go straight to the power amp on that amp, but idk what youd do with the first amp. would you plug the send on amp 1 into the return on amp 2?
Gibson SG Special Faded(Super Distortion/PAF Pro)
Carvin V3M
Jet City JCA2112RC
Taylor 114e
Ibanez SR300e

Quote by Delanoir
In 60 years, there will still be Opeth.
You know why?
Death ain't got **** on Mikael.
#23
Quote by Linqua5150
yea cant you plug into the effects loop on the second amp? itll go straight to the power amp on that amp, but idk what youd do with the first amp. would you plug the send on amp 1 into the return on amp 2?


I guess so.... I seemed like a good idea to me to use a big ass nice sounding amp and use the small power amp of my little gaint
Gear:
----------------------
Jack and Danny Brothers Ls-5
Ibanez Gsa 60
----------------------
Zoom g9.2tt (for sale (NL))
----------------------
Blackheart Little Giant
#24
from what ive heard it should work, but theres wattages and all other types of shit that applies too, dont try anything until we get someone who knows more about amps in here lol
Gibson SG Special Faded(Super Distortion/PAF Pro)
Carvin V3M
Jet City JCA2112RC
Taylor 114e
Ibanez SR300e

Quote by Delanoir
In 60 years, there will still be Opeth.
You know why?
Death ain't got **** on Mikael.
#25
I haven't bought a big amp yet so that doesn't matter. But my eyes felt on a discontinued amp of crate.( don't laugh at me ) This thing sounded really great and if my plan was possible then I could sell my Zoom 9.2tt because I only use 1 distortion model of it.
Gear:
----------------------
Jack and Danny Brothers Ls-5
Ibanez Gsa 60
----------------------
Zoom g9.2tt (for sale (NL))
----------------------
Blackheart Little Giant
#26
what kind of music do you play?
there are very very few reasons why you should need to be doing this.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#27
Quote by niels-uiterwaal
But what I want is possible if you have 2 amp heads with both an effects loop, is that right?



well yes it would work if you had 2 amps with effects loops, or slave/line outs.

however, you would need either a dummy loud or a speaker load for both amps.

again it's all dependent on what type of music you play. If you like the sound of your blackheart turn all the way up you should probably not be looking at a 3 channel 120 watt combo anyway. Those amps sound nothing like your little giant.

Plus, you don't want the preamps of those amps going into the blackheart if your going to be turning the black heart to 10.

A mixture of preamp + power amp distortion is good. Dimed preamp distortion and dimed power amp distortion is a recipe for shit.

If you really need a channel switcher but want to be able to break your amp up check out something like the

Fryette Memphis. 30watts, 2 channels, spring reverb, fx loop, line-out, switchable 18/30 power operation.

or in the budget range something like a Vox ac15c2 or 30c2.

What you are talking about can be done....but there is almost no reason why anyone should have to do it unless they are going for a very very specific sound.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#28
Quote by AcousticMirror
dude...do you ever get tired of like being all wrong and stuff?
If I were you i'd dump every book you've read and all your reliable sources and find some new years.
it's not too late to start over.

Do you ever get tired of making baseless claims against me? Or putting words in my mouth?

I do.
Gear:
- Bugera 333
- VJ & VJ cab
- Jackson JS30
- TS9

Bugera Users Militia. We are horrible people. With a sprinkler fetish.
~ BUM: For all things extinguishing

Rackmount Tube Amp Project <<< Updates!
#29
Quote by niels-uiterwaal
I wanted to buy a bigger head with 3 channels but there are only 120 watt heads. So I thought it would be a nice idea to use the pre amp of a bigger amp head and use the power amp of my little giant so I can still play at bedroom volumes.
But I really have no clue how I should do this.


evidently this is the intent AM. first lets address this solution...

this is a horrible way of going about getting a multi channel 'little giant'. if you want a 'bigger head with 3 channels' and 'still want to play at bedroom volume' then make sure your 'big amp' has a master volume, that'll allow for plenty of quiet. you won't be able to drive the power section of the amp that way, but you won't be doing that on a little giant at 'bedroom volumes' anyway.

now lets address the plausibility.

yes, you can do this. some amps are even designed for stuff like this, the Johnson Millenium and the THD bivalve (and maybe flexi 50) both have onboard dummy loads, line out's with volume controls and effects loops, which would be ideal for such applications.

you can do as AM says and that'll work fine, most people use an attenuator because it has a line out itself and has a dummy load as well so it serves both function. so the setup would be:

guitar -> amp (preamp)-> attenuator -> amp (trough receive in FX loop) -> cab

like i said, certain amps like the bivalve already have the attenuator or dummy load built in, so you may not need it.

but this is a cumbersome setup, most people use something like a ada or mesa rackmount/floor preamp and then run that into a dedicated power amp (like the older VHT 50/50's). this allows for more flexibility and customization.

sounds like you just need a 2 pedal OD or something like a jeckyl and hyde
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#30
Quote by niels-uiterwaal
Does a low wattage power amp excist? I only saw a mesa boogie but that was waaaaaay to expensive.

And if not, would it be possible to make a effects loop for my little giant?


http://www.impamp.com/

depends on how small you want to go, but that could probably work
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#31
Quote by AcousticMirror
well yes it would work if you had 2 amps with effects loops, or slave/line outs.

however, you would need either a dummy loud or a speaker load for both amps.

again it's all dependent on what type of music you play. If you like the sound of your blackheart turn all the way up you should probably not be looking at a 3 channel 120 watt combo anyway. Those amps sound nothing like your little giant.

Plus, you don't want the preamps of those amps going into the blackheart if your going to be turning the black heart to 10.

A mixture of preamp + power amp distortion is good. Dimed preamp distortion and dimed power amp distortion is a recipe for shit.

If you really need a channel switcher but want to be able to break your amp up check out something like the

Fryette Memphis. 30watts, 2 channels, spring reverb, fx loop, line-out, switchable 18/30 power operation.

or in the budget range something like a Vox ac15c2 or 30c2.

What you are talking about can be done....but there is almost no reason why anyone should have to do it unless they are going for a very very specific sound.


I play mainly punk, sometimes a bit metal and blues. So I just want a nice amp distortion and get rid of my Multi FX. And the amp I played on did have a master volume but it still was way too loud for on the bedroom.

Im also looking for a American sounding amp and my Little giant's sound is more based on British sound I think.
Gear:
----------------------
Jack and Danny Brothers Ls-5
Ibanez Gsa 60
----------------------
Zoom g9.2tt (for sale (NL))
----------------------
Blackheart Little Giant
Last edited by niels-uiterwaal at Jul 19, 2010,
#32
bump
Gear:
----------------------
Jack and Danny Brothers Ls-5
Ibanez Gsa 60
----------------------
Zoom g9.2tt (for sale (NL))
----------------------
Blackheart Little Giant
#33
Pulling output valves to halve to wattage makes a 3db volume drop (bearly noticable), and fried my output transformer in my laney. £100 repair job for 3db. Deffinately not worth it, and not as effective as an attenuator.

Some amps are built to handle it. Most newer amps arent.

You're looking at a very expensive rig really, and considering your current set up, (no offence) but how mutch of a budget do you have.

If you're into punk mostly with a little metal and blues, get a 30 watt combo, something like the peavey classic 30 with a few pedals to cover metal.

Look on ebay for a Mesa F30/F50 too.

I dont understand how an amp with a master volume is too loud, unless your aiming to get power amp distortion, getting any amp to TV levels is doable, of course some amps are a bit more touchy with controls. But it can be done.
#34
Would it be possible to use this thing as the power amp? So the effectsloop out goes right into this power amp and then this power amp into my cab?

http://www.ehx.com/products/44-magnum
Gear:
----------------------
Jack and Danny Brothers Ls-5
Ibanez Gsa 60
----------------------
Zoom g9.2tt (for sale (NL))
----------------------
Blackheart Little Giant
#35
Yeah, but you still need the head plugged into a load. Like an attenuator or another speaker (which is against the whole point of doing this in the first place), or something that allows you to connect from the head output to headphones (http://taweber.powweb.com/weber/hpa50.htm). You're better off just buying an attenuator.
#36
I go from my SanSamp PSA (Solid state pre) output into a the FX loop return on my 100 watt head.
#37
Quote by beckyjc
Yeah, but you still need the head plugged into a load. Like an attenuator or another speaker (which is against the whole point of doing this in the first place), or something that allows you to connect from the head output to headphones (http://taweber.powweb.com/weber/hpa50.htm). You're better off just buying an attenuator.


Sorry for being so annoying but I don't get why you can't just leave the first head (which should provide the pre-amp) without an output.

EDIT: and what is a speaker load?
Gear:
----------------------
Jack and Danny Brothers Ls-5
Ibanez Gsa 60
----------------------
Zoom g9.2tt (for sale (NL))
----------------------
Blackheart Little Giant
#38
Ive been wondering this too, would it be possible for me to plug a line out of my blackstar ht-5 effect loop into the return loop on my Vox AC30?
or would that just break it?

i just wanted to see if i could get my ht-5 at higher volumes of the vox
#39
sorry for bumping but could someone answer my question
Gear:
----------------------
Jack and Danny Brothers Ls-5
Ibanez Gsa 60
----------------------
Zoom g9.2tt (for sale (NL))
----------------------
Blackheart Little Giant
#40
Quote by niels-uiterwaal
Sorry for being so annoying but I don't get why you can't just leave the first head (which should provide the pre-amp) without an output.

EDIT: and what is a speaker load?

To avoid getting the head fried up.

A speaker load example is a cabinet/attenuator/speaker simulator that you plug to the head
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