#1
I'm teaching myself theory and just wanted to confirm that these are the diatonic triads for E minor.

E min
F# diminished
G augmented
A min
B Maj
C Maj
D# diminished

Is this correct?
#2
Quote by King Zirconium
I'm teaching myself theory and just wanted to confirm that these are the diatonic triads for E minor.

E min
F# diminished
G augmented
A min
B Maj
C Maj
D# diminished

Is this correct?

No.

E minor is the relative of G major.

E minor's notes: E F# G A B C D E

Chords would be min, dim, maj, min, min, maj, maj.
#3
Quote by GilbertsPinky
No.

E minor is the relative of G major.

E minor's notes: E F# G A B C D E

Chords would be min, dim, maj, min, min, maj, maj.


Wow... I just realized what I did wrong. I'm in harmonic minor, correct? I've been messing around in that scale and completely forgot thats it's name.
#4
Quote by King Zirconium
Wow... I just realized what I did wrong. I'm in harmonic minor, correct? I've been messing around in that scale and completely forgot thats it's name.

Yeah, you did E harmonic minor.
(which was correctly harmonized by the way )
Quote by DiminishedFifth
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#5
You are right, the harmonic minor is the basis for minor key analysis. It's important to learn the harmonised melodic one too though.
#6
Quote by FacetOfChaos
Yeah, you did E harmonic minor.
(which was correctly harmonized by the way )


Yay, I'm not completely incompetent!

EDIT: Is the harmonised melodic minor scale the one with the # 6th and 7th or is that a completely different scale?
Last edited by King Zirconium at Jul 19, 2010,
#7
Quote by King Zirconium
Yay, I'm not completely incompetent!

EDIT: Is the harmonised melodic minor scale the one with the # 6th and 7th or is that a completely different scale?

The (ascending) melodic minor scale is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7.
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#8
Quote by King Zirconium
EDIT: Is the harmonised melodic minor scale the one with the # 6th and 7th or is that a completely different scale?

The melodic minor has a raised 6th and 7th degree while ascending and descends like the natural minor.
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Who's going to stop you? The music police?
#10
Quote by griffRG7321
You are right, the harmonic minor is the basis for minor key analysis.
...but the "diatonic" chords are derived from the natural minor scale.

Not trying to argue this again, just pointing that out.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#11
Quote by FacetOfChaos
The melodic minor has a raised 6th and 7th degree while ascending and descends like the natural minor.

I thought nowadays it is generally accepted that melodic minor can stay the same descending. The reason it was raised was to have a leading tone back when the V-i cadence was almost always used, but I heard somewhere that now seeing as music isn't nearly as strict, people can keep melodic minor both ascending and descending. Just pointing that out :3 haha
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#12
Quote by Zinnie
I thought nowadays it is generally accepted that melodic minor can stay the same descending. The reason it was raised was to have a leading tone back when the V-i cadence was almost always used, but I heard somewhere that now seeing as music isn't nearly as strict, people can keep melodic minor both ascending and descending. Just pointing that out :3 haha

the ascending part of the melodic minor scale is called the Jazz minor scale, which is more commonly used these days (especially in jazz...obviously) than the melodic minor scale which descends like a natural minor, but i would assume that in formal music composition/theory the melodic minor scale is still used.
Last edited by TMVATDI at Jul 20, 2010,
#13
Quote by TMVATDI
the ascending part of the melodic minor scale is called the Jazz minor scale, which is more commonly used these days (especially in jazz...obviously) than the melodic minor scale which descends like a natural minor, but i would assume that in formal music composition/theory the melodic minor scale is still used.

I researched this a while ago and found that even as far back as Bach melodic minor was used with a major six and major seven when ascending and descending and natural minor was used ascending and descending.

The main difference was in fact when the V or V7 chord was leading into a tonic then the melodic minor would appear (either ascending or descending) while at other times the natural minor was preferred.

It seems the ascending/descending point of difference is taught far more than it is actually used and the guideline shouldn't really be about ascending or descending but more to do with cadence.
Si
#14
Quote by food1010
...but the "diatonic" chords are derived from the natural minor scale.

Not trying to argue this again, just pointing that out.


Then i shall point out any chords from any of the minor scales are diatonic
#15
^2 schools of thought there. One is that harmonic and melodic minor are NOT included in the term diatonic. The other that they ARE diatonic. There is not a consensus on the matter so, in my opinion, it's better to know both ways are accepted and move on.
Si
#16
The general consensus from reading textbooks is that they are all diatonic, the only place i've heard otherwise is on this forum.
#17
Quote by griffRG7321
The general consensus from reading textbooks is that they are all diatonic, the only place i've heard otherwise is on this forum.


if you take the definition of diatonic, the harmonic minor scale is out since it contains an augmented second, and the melodic minor scale is not diatonic because the half step and whole step arrangement does not conform to a certain order. really, calling them diatonic is like saying that something that is clearly red can be considered blue. they're not really diatonic by definition of the word -- but they're considered diatonic because their usage is common practice.

as 20T said, though, best not to get preoccupied with it. make your own judgment and do your best not to perpetuate the argument. it's not like i won't use them just because i don't consider them diatonic.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#18
Quote by 20Tigers
I researched this a while ago and found that even as far back as Bach melodic minor was used with a major six and major seven when ascending and descending and natural minor was used ascending and descending.

The main difference was in fact when the V or V7 chord was leading into a tonic then the melodic minor would appear (either ascending or descending) while at other times the natural minor was preferred.

It seems the ascending/descending point of difference is taught far more than it is actually used and the guideline shouldn't really be about ascending or descending but more to do with cadence.

oh, i learned something new today
#21
Fair point. I saw you followed it through to the offending reference article and commented. Go get 'em
Si
#22
Quote by 20Tigers
^2 schools of thought there. One is that harmonic and melodic minor are NOT included in the term diatonic. The other that they ARE diatonic. There is not a consensus on the matter so, in my opinion, it's better to know both ways are accepted and move on.
Seems reasonable enough.

Plus you could argue for a while over the definition of "diatonic" anyway, so it's probably best to just leave it at that.

Quote by AlanHB
Although wiki also uses "Sweet Home Alabama" as an example of a modal song. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixolydian_mode#Notable_songs_in_Mixolydian_mode


Lesson of the day kids: Don't always trust Wikipedia. It's got some great info, but also a lot of not so great info.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Jul 21, 2010,
#23
Quote by 20Tigers
Fair point. I saw you followed it through to the offending reference article and commented. Go get 'em


Haha - well first it was the discussion page on wiki, where it was a bunch of guys who clearly didn't know what they were talking about in practice. Then I went to the source and found that terrible article on the modes. Is the writer really supposed to be a professional?
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#24
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Si