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#1
I've heard alot of people say that this is necessary in playing metal, but I think Mids give a brighter less muffled tone, more beef, I've heard that using mids makes things more "british" sounding, but I don't see it. Can someone give me some more insight?
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#2
I play modern metal, i dont scoop my mids.

In regards to EQing, its ALL PREFERENCE. /thread
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#4
Personally, I like the sound of scooped mids. It sounds really tight and smooth. Only thing I don't like about it is it seems that everybody does it.
#5
scooped mids are cool, to an extent. Metallica scooped their mids. Seems like if it wasn't a good idea, they wouldn't have sold millions of records. their EQ'ing was set at;

bass: 10

mids: 5

treble: 10

for all their albums before the black album, their EQ was set at;

bass: 10

mids: 0 (that's right, ZERO!)

treble: 10

this is a bit outland-ish, of course, but it is true.
#6
Quote by charles_ebarb
scooped mids are cool, to an extent. Metallica scooped their mids. Seems like if it wasn't a good idea, they wouldn't have sold millions of records. their EQ'ing was set at;

bass: 10

mids: 5

treble: 10

for all their albums before the black album, their EQ was set at;

bass: 10

mids: 0 (that's right, ZERO!)

treble: 10

this is a bit outland-ish, of course, but it is true.




This, is such complete bull. I had to put waders on to get through the amount of bull you just posted.

Scooping mids is generally the easy way to a metal tone, because with the mids scooped the treble gets more bitey and the bass more boomy because those frequencies have more room.

But in a band situation it just doesn't work. I love mids, I always run a high mid setting.
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#7
Quote by SimplyBen


This, is such complete bull. I had to put waders on to get through the amount of bull you just posted.

Scooping mids is generally the easy way to a metal tone, because with the mids scooped the treble gets more bitey and the bass more boomy because those frequencies have more room.

But in a band situation it just doesn't work. I love mids, I always run a high mid setting.



You are such a moron.. shut your hole and go to school my friend...

it is very well documented ON THIS WEBSITE their EQ settings for all their albums, so punch yourself.
#8
Quote by SimplyBen


This, is such complete bull. I had to put waders on to get through the amount of bull you just posted.

Scooping mids is generally the easy way to a metal tone, because with the mids scooped the treble gets more bitey and the bass more boomy because those frequencies have more room.

But in a band situation it just doesn't work. I love mids, I always run a high mid setting.


+1, IMHO.

Go to a band practice.
Start with your mids unscooped at a certain volume in which you can hear yourself blended in w/ the rest of the band.
Scoop your mids.
Don't adjust volume.
Lose all presence.
Do NOT profit.
Fail.

Edit: I'm not 100% against scooping, it has its time and place.

Say you're making a scratch track with just guitars and a drum machine. Scooping mids (to a certain extent) is a good way for a nice, bassy rythm guitar tone to back the lead tone without the lead guitar needing to be too harsh.

However, on an actual mix (real drums, bass, all that nice shit) the bass should have those bassy frequencies covered. And its EQing 101 that you should never over emphasize a single frequency range.

Hope this helps.
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Last edited by DakoRob at Jul 22, 2010,
#9
Scooping mids sounds like hell.
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maybe you're not saying the right things? an amp likes to know you care.





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#10
THIS IS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM JAMES HETFIELDS' INTERVIEW WHEN ASKED "HOW HE GET'S HIS TONE;

Metallica's James Hetfield: "Distortion always starts with the amp. Pedals just site on top of the sound. They don't feel like a full part of it, just some fuzz on top. You can fiddle with parametric EQs and all that shit for days, but it still won't have the smooth distortion of an amp. The last time I used a distortion [overdrive] pedal was on Ride the Lightning, and it was hell. It was an Ibanez Tube Screamer like Kirk uses. It really helps his solos cut through, but it puts a shitty coating on smooth rhythm tones, and it was hard to make it not sound like a pedal. You can recognize Marshall distortion in an instant; that's why I shied away from that and went with MESA/Boogies. I basically use the Boogie's distortion with a non-programmable studio-quality Aphex parametric EQ to fine-tune certain frequencies, dipping out some of the midrange. All my speakers are Celestion Vintage 30s."
#11
i NOTICE HOW HE SAID THAT HE DIPS OUT THE MIDRANGE...

Ben, it is better to keep your mouth shut and let us think you are a fool, lest you open it and remove all doubt
#12
Quote by charles_ebarb
THIS IS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM JAMES HETFIELDS' INTERVIEW WHEN ASKED "HOW HE GET'S HIS TONE;

Metallica's James Hetfield: "Distortion always starts with the amp. Pedals just site on top of the sound. They don't feel like a full part of it, just some fuzz on top. You can fiddle with parametric EQs and all that shit for days, but it still won't have the smooth distortion of an amp. The last time I used a distortion [overdrive] pedal was on Ride the Lightning, and it was hell. It was an Ibanez Tube Screamer like Kirk uses. It really helps his solos cut through, but it puts a shitty coating on smooth rhythm tones, and it was hard to make it not sound like a pedal. You can recognize Marshall distortion in an instant; that's why I shied away from that and went with MESA/Boogies. I basically use the Boogie's distortion with a non-programmable studio-quality Aphex parametric EQ to fine-tune certain frequencies, dipping out some of the midrange. All my speakers are Celestion Vintage 30s."

I can't find the words "scooped" or "zero" anywhere there near anything to do with mids.
#13
Metallica scooped their mids because they had mid heavy amps, back in the day.

However, they kept similar settings when they switched to Mesa or whatever, and you can tell. The guitar is totally invading the bass frequencies. You can't really make out the bass clearly.


Are mids necessary? Yes, of course. The guitar is a midrange instrument.

Can you scoop mids? Yes, some amps have tons of mids to spare.

How does it affect you? Well, if you scoop, it's very easy to blend in with the bass guitar. Additionally, you may find it hard to "pop out" in the live mix. You need mids to be heard well.
Last edited by forsaknazrael at Jul 22, 2010,
#14
^^ +1

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#15
Here's an exerpt from Wiki on Jame's gear:
By 1990, along with the assistance of Bob Rock, Hetfield perfected the scooped-midrange studio tone that he had been seeking since 1983. He discovered that utilizing the midrange frequencies straight from a modified Marshall amplifier, layered over guitar tracks of his trusty Mesa/Boogie MarkIIC+ as well as the Mesa/Boogie MarkIV, plus an ADA MP-1 preamp and a Mesa/Boogie Strategy 400 poweramp, he would get a much thicker and richer tone. He enhanced the frequencies by enclosing his four Marshall 1960B speaker cabinets with foam walls and U-Haul blankets, and carefully phase-canceled particular frequencies with eight closely-positioned microphones and two ambient condenser microphones.
#16
Scooped. Not 0.
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Amps:
Baron Custom Amps K88
Rivera Knucklehead TRE
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Randall RM4 /w Modded modules
Cabs:
Mesa 4x12
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#17
Quote by kylendm
^^ +1

Charles Fails.



aww another one hopping on the bandwagon...

looks like you guys got no counter info...


that what a moron looks like
#18
Quote by charles_ebarb
i NOTICE HOW HE SAID THAT HE DIPS OUT THE MIDRANGE...

Ben, it is better to keep your mouth shut and let us think you are a fool, lest you open it and remove all doubt


Bro, chill. The BS he was talking about is when you said that's how hey sold millions of albums. Scooping Mids =/= album sales.
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#19
Quote by kylendm
Scooped. Not 0.

Don't even bother with him, he tried to tell me that he thinks an audio interface clutters up your signal and that those cheap, shitty USB cords do the same as an interface but for cheaper, thus making interfaces a waste of money and only really just giving you an extra volume nob
#21
Dude, your head is so far up your ass you don't even know it. If you knew a single ****ing thing about how the Mark amps work or how metal tones are achieved, you would see how incredibly ****ing stupid your original statement was.
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#22
Quote by charles_ebarb
THIS IS TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM JAMES HETFIELDS' INTERVIEW WHEN ASKED "HOW HE GET'S HIS TONE;

Metallica's James Hetfield: "Distortion always starts with the amp. Pedals just site on top of the sound. They don't feel like a full part of it, just some fuzz on top. You can fiddle with parametric EQs and all that shit for days, but it still won't have the smooth distortion of an amp. The last time I used a distortion [overdrive] pedal was on Ride the Lightning, and it was hell. It was an Ibanez Tube Screamer like Kirk uses. It really helps his solos cut through, but it puts a shitty coating on smooth rhythm tones, and it was hard to make it not sound like a pedal. You can recognize Marshall distortion in an instant; that's why I shied away from that and went with MESA/Boogies. I basically use the Boogie's distortion with a non-programmable studio-quality Aphex parametric EQ to fine-tune certain frequencies, dipping out some of the midrange. All my speakers are Celestion Vintage 30s."


Very important overlooked word.
While they may have scooped the mids on their amps back in the day. You clearly stated absolue fact that they ran 10.0.10 setups. Which is stupid. Because:

A) Who would run that? Your mix would sound like hell. They knew what they were doing and they wouldn't have removed all of the guitars natural signal from the mix.

B) You say Metallica ran that setting. You mean all of them? Kirk and James have a different sound, it's called being a band. Back in the day (IIRC) they used the same or very similar amps, running the same amps, with the same settings would be rather boring don't you think?

Also, nowhere does it say they ever used numbers that round. I never said they didn't scoop you will notice. I just pointed out that Metallica would never run a rig that goes 10.010 for both guitarists. Or 10.5.10 for that matter.

See, thats why it was bull, happy now?
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Last edited by SimplyBen at Jul 22, 2010,
#23


This thread is full of lols.

Almost as good as a Megadeth vs. Metallica thread.
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#24
And then there's the fact that they were running Marks in the early days. You never run pre-bass that high on a Mark unless you want a muddy, loose mess.
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#25
Quote by mmolteratx
And then there's the fact that they were running Marks in the early days. You never run pre-bass that high on a Mark unless you want a muddy, loose mess.

+1. The bass on my Mark IV is on 2.
Having a V shape on the GEQ only sounds scooped if you have the mids ALL the way down, mines in a V and its not scooped at all.
EDIT: Also, keep in mind many metal bands use Vintage 30's, which have a pretty big mid hump, so you'd run the mids lower than with some other speakers. Looking at EQ settings alone is a stupid way of judging someones tone.
Last edited by littlephil at Jul 22, 2010,
#26
Quote by Dimefan69
I've heard alot of people say that this is necessary in playing metal, but I think Mids give a brighter less muffled tone, more beef, I've heard that using mids makes things more "british" sounding, but I don't see it. Can someone give me some more insight?


depends on the rig.
modern metal & "sludge" what ever that is- scoops the mids(bass-10, treble-6 to 10,presences 6-10,mids-0-2 thats your modern metal tone. but when recording, ask any engineer- if you want guitar to be heard you better boost mid frequencies.
(don't make me break out the 32 band eq to show you which exactly) what a lot of modern downtuned players don't know is in the beginning these guys used a 4x12 & 1x15 cab to get the low tones w/out tuning down..

if you want to be heard in the mix you need midrange on guitar-even if it's down tuned bands(say c#) the guitar is punching mids to get the tone across- just a lower mid but higher than the rest of the band.

especially live- i remember slayer opening for the scorpions- of course the scorps weren't going to adjust for slayer so it was just a muddy mess...ruh ruh ruh w/chocolate jello in your ears...
Last edited by blues n cues at Jul 22, 2010,
#27
I like this interview with Slipknot's Mick Thomson, he discusses frequencies for the first half of it. Around 3:00 he says scooping the mids may sound good when you're playing by yourself, but you'll need those frequencies when you're playing with a band.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIqxM02tu80
Last edited by Ghostmaker at Jul 22, 2010,
#28
To actually answer TS's question legitimately, the reason many people want boosted mids is:
Guitar is a midrange instrument, and the majority of its resonant tone is in the frequency range that the mid controls usually affect (somewhere around 500-1500Hz, it varies from amp to amp. Sometimes greatly, that's a *very* rough value). So by boosting the mids, you bring out the true characteristics and nuances of your guitar (though a great deal of tone comes from frequencies outside of this range, don't get me wrong). When you play say, an open A (440Hz), you don't only hear that particular frequency. Yes, that is the dominant frequency heard, but what you're actually hearing is a mixture of different frequencies ranging from 100(ish)Hz to a few kHz. And this is why you have more than one tone knob on your amp. So you can turn up your bass and treble all the way and get that ballsey, sreaming tone, but if you're ever wondering why it sounds like a pile of mud is because you're not accentuating the dominant frequencies of the notes you're trying to play. Therefore your tone would *generally* lack clarity and presence.
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Last edited by Karlboy at Jul 22, 2010,
#29
Quote by charles_ebarb
Here's an exerpt from Wiki on Jame's gear:
By 1990, along with the assistance of Bob Rock, Hetfield perfected the scooped-midrange studio tone that he had been seeking since 1983. He discovered that utilizing the midrange frequencies straight from a modified Marshall amplifier, layered over guitar tracks of his trusty Mesa/Boogie MarkIIC+ as well as the Mesa/Boogie MarkIV, plus an ADA MP-1 preamp and a Mesa/Boogie Strategy 400 poweramp, he would get a much thicker and richer tone. He enhanced the frequencies by enclosing his four Marshall 1960B speaker cabinets with foam walls and U-Haul blankets, and carefully phase-canceled particular frequencies with eight closely-positioned microphones and two ambient condenser microphones.

It doesn't matter since their best albums were KEA, RTL and MoP, which still had decent mids.

Just stop.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Feel free to express yours so I can make an informed judgement about how stupid you are.
#30
Quote by Karlboy
To actually answer TS's question legitimately, the reason many people want boosted mids is:
Guitar is a midrange instrument, and the majority of its resonant tone is in the frequency range that the mid controls usually affect (somewhere around 500-1500Hz, it varies from amp to amp. Sometimes greatly, that's a *very* rough value). So by boosting the mids, you bring out the true characteristics and nuances of your guitar (though a great deal of tone comes from frequencies outside of this range, don't get me wrong). When you play say, an open A (440Hz), you don't only hear that particular frequency. Yes, that is the dominant frequency heard, but what you're actually hearing is a mixture of different frequencies ranging from 100(ish)Hz to a few kHz. And this is why you have more than one tone knob on your amp. So you can turn up your bass and treble all the way and get that ballsey, sreaming tone, but if you're ever wondering why it sounds like a pile of mud is because you're not accentuating the dominant frequencies of the notes you're trying to play. Therefore your tone would *generally* lack clarity and presence.



i hate to disagree or maybe i read it wrong but.. i i'm alone & play A440 as a single note- thats exactly the only frequency i will hear.

just so you know even tone deaf & people that can't sing & people w/ severe retardation can key in(think a stroke victim w/ no response)on C NATURAL( middle c on a piano) and do you know why? because commercials,hit songs, & dittys were written in that key or based on piano-middle c as the starting tone.

now things may have changed since the advent of tv & radio until this decade(the millineum) but thats an interesting thing. now say us rock musicians from the 60's to 90's naturally gravitate to A or Em.

just for curiosity- go pick up your guitar,close your eyes, & what is the 1st chord you play?? regardless of what it's tuned to...it's that finger placement.
there ya go.
#31
Quote by forsaknazrael
Metallica scooped their mids because they had mid heavy amps, back in the day.

However, they kept similar settings when they switched to Mesa or whatever, and you can tell. The guitar is totally invading the bass frequencies. You can't really make out the bass clearly.


Are mids necessary? Yes, of course. The guitar is a midrange instrument.

Can you scoop mids? Yes, some amps have tons of mids to spare.

How does it affect you? Well, if you scoop, it's very easy to blend in with the bass guitar. Additionally, you may find it hard to "pop out" in the live mix. You need mids to be heard well.


+1

Actually he's right about the Metallica scooping, even with the Mesa's

They used the Mark series, and the Mark series has an EQ for the channel, but also a graphic EQ for the amp.

The graphic was set at the V shape as a general scoop because the EQ settings on the EQ were generally quite mid heavy. As well as Marks being mid heavy amps to start with.

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Last edited by Chrisiphone at Jul 22, 2010,
#32
Quote by charles_ebarb
scooped mids are cool, to an extent. Metallica scooped their mids. Seems like if it wasn't a good idea, they wouldn't have sold millions of records.

since when has guitar sound dictated album sales? if that were true, please explain:


or



or

Quote by patriotplayer90
Lolz that guy is a noob.

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#33
Quote by blues n cues
i hate to disagree or maybe i read it wrong but.. i i'm alone & play A440 as a single note- thats exactly the only frequency i will hear.

just so you know even tone deaf & people that can't sing & people w/ severe retardation can key in(think a stroke victim w/ no response)on C NATURAL( middle c on a piano) and do you know why? because commercials,hit songs, & dittys were written in that key or based on piano-middle c as the starting tone.

now things may have changed since the advent of tv & radio until this decade(the millineum) but thats an interesting thing. now say us rock musicians from the 60's to 90's naturally gravitate to A or Em.

just for curiosity- go pick up your guitar,close your eyes, & what is the 1st chord you play?? regardless of what it's tuned to...it's that finger placement.
there ya go.


If you play any note you'll hear it and all of its harmonics. Very few, if any, instruments only sound the fundamental and the guitar is not one of them.
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#34
I don't know if it would be considered "scooped" because I have my highs at 1, but my mids are definitely not as prevalent as the lows or high. IDK, it sounds pretty brutal and works well in a band situation.

Just find the sweet spot dude, don't let the numbers tell you what to do. If it sounds good it sounds good.
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#35
Quote by forsaknazrael
Metallica scooped their mids because they had mid heavy amps, back in the day.

However, they kept similar settings when they switched to Mesa or whatever, and you can tell. The guitar is totally invading the bass frequencies. You can't really make out the bass clearly.


Are mids necessary? Yes, of course. The guitar is a midrange instrument.

Can you scoop mids? Yes, some amps have tons of mids to spare.

How does it affect you? Well, if you scoop, it's very easy to blend in with the bass guitar. Additionally, you may find it hard to "pop out" in the live mix. You need mids to be heard well.


actually cliff burton (bass) preferred a mid heavy tone & for a reason- it cuts through 2 guitars. sounds silly yes but live it works-
think iron maiden- steve harris uses a clean mid tone w/ resonance to cut through 2 guitars- now 3 & sometimes 4. as opposed to a tone deep bottom bass-think old ozzy or dio. you have to see a spectrum analyzer to really get it. it's like 3d glasses.
#37
it sounds cool practising by yourself but no one will really hear you when you play live. That's the downside.

Scooping mids is generally regarded as childish. However, some higher gain amps have a signature "scooped" tone, and are basically the industry standard for metal.

Scooping to a certain degree is fine but if you actually play 10-0-10, well I wouldn't know what to say to that. I can't believe I ever thought it sounded good (back when I was a n00b). Discovering mids was like discovering that you have all the porn channels on satellite TV.
#38
Quote by forsaknazrael
Cliff Burton didn't do bass on the albums with Mesas, being dead and all....don't know why it's relevant at all...

When I think middy bass tone, I think Led Zep or the Who. Those guys cut through.


i didn't say anything about the mesa era. i said he ran his bass up in the mid ranges to cut through 2 guitars.
if you ever played in a band w/ 2 guitar players you would know how this works live.-no offense.

and actually while john entwistle ran a lot of mids to cut through pete & the keys through a hammond organ
john paul jones ran a pretty deep bass because jimmy page had such a trebly tone.
Last edited by blues n cues at Jul 22, 2010,
#39
Quote by Tedward
it sounds cool practising by yourself but no one will really hear you when you play live. That's the downside.

Scooping mids is generally regarded as childish. However, some higher gain amps have a signature "scooped" tone, and are basically the industry standard for metal.

Scooping to a certain degree is fine but if you actually play 10-0-10, well I wouldn't know what to say to that. I can't believe I ever thought it sounded good (back when I was a n00b). Discovering mids was like discovering that you have all the porn channels on satellite TV.


See i would sig that.. but my sig is full... Someone else, please do!
Gear:
Ibanez RG4EXFM1
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Got Djent?
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