#1
Who thinks this idea would work?
i want to write a fairly fast paced guitar solo for 1 guitar, and have the other guitar play the perfect fifth above each of the 1st guitar's notes at the same exact time, and then it would be like fast power chords.
for example (but not a very great 1):
guitar 1: C, D, E, B, A, F
guitar 2: G, A, B, F, E, C

The F is there instead of the F# to make a b5 chord, it keeps everything in key but is dissonant (i learned that from some1 here haha). also, im not sure if all those notes are the correct 5ths, i went thru it in my head trying to figure it out and it took me a little while but i didnt write it out or anything and my head is not a reliable source lol.
so who likes this idea? and has it been used before?
#3
That's just harmonizing in fifths. The only problem with that is, when it's that high up, the notes lose their "identity". They lack flavor. The reason 3rds and 6ths are used most for harmonization is because they're not perfect. They have a tonal quality to them. 4ths and 5ths (bar #4's and b5's) are there just to strengthen the root really.

And yes, I've used it before. I've heard songs use it before, but not many. It's not very experimental unless it's entirely in P5's or b5's, and even then that's pushing it. A great Japanese band (X JAPAN) mainly harmonizes in 4ths (actually, many J-bands do now that I think about it). This is pretty much the same as in 5ths.
Last edited by DiminishedFifth at Jul 23, 2010,
#4
^What Diminshed said

Marty Friedman and Jason Becker used to that in cacophony, and they did that as well both on some solo records.

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
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#5
Quote by DiminishedFifth
That's just harmonizing in fifths. The only problem with that is, when it's that high up, the notes lose their "identity". They lack flavor. The reason 3rds and 6ths are used most for harmonization is because they're not perfect. They have a tonal quality to them. 4ths and 5ths (bar #4's and b5's) are there just to strengthen the root really.

And yes, I've used it before. I've heard songs use it before, but not many. It's not very experimental unless it's entirely in P5's or b5's. A great Japanese band (X JAPAN) mainly harmonizes in 4ths (actually, many J-bands do now that I think about it). This is pretty much the same as in 5ths.


oh, now i've been informed. i dont think i've ever heard too many 6ths tho, like in chords, idk how common that really is. i guess between 2 guitars it could be, but just as a chord played by 1 guitar i haven't really used it or seen it used
#6
Quote by TMVATDI
oh, now i've been informed. i dont think i've ever heard too many 6ths tho, like in chords, idk how common that really is. i guess between 2 guitars it could be, but just as a chord played by 1 guitar i haven't really used it or seen it used

Recently, I've been using a lot of Xmb6 chords, but that's aside the point...

If you take a chord, and put it in first inversion, then you have a sixth interval between the bass and the root of the chord. That's pretty common. Actually, that's VERY common. One of the most common things there is.
#7
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Recently, I've been using a lot of Xmb6 chords, but that's aside the point...

If you take a chord, and put it in first inversion, then you have a sixth interval between the bass and the root of the chord. That's pretty common. Actually, that's VERY common. One of the most common things there is.

i really dont understand shit about inversions i thought i understood them before but now i dont think i even have the definition correct.
i know it involves putting a note other than the root in the bass but idk anything more than that
#8
I think the easiest way to think of inversions is to move the first note to the top.

eg, first inversion is 3+5+1

do it again and you'll get 5+1+3, 2nd inversion.

you can also do it with 7ths etc. You can sometimes get some really weird stuff that goes totally out of key. Like B/F (used in the key of B major). Should have sounded out of key (in the context of the song that I used it in) but it sounded awesome.
Last edited by wakytabaki at Jul 23, 2010,
#9
If you listened to Ornette Coleman, it's the basis of his "free" music. He doesn't have chords nor a chord playing instrument. So while he messes around playing around with the melody the bass, basses, or other instruments are following him creating interval combinations between his notes and their notes.

That allows him to break free from having to follow chords, a set number of bars or even having to reach a set destination. The band can take it wherever it wants, and even if it wants to reside within original melody, it doesn't have to be restrained to a set number of bars as the band can adapt the harmony on the spot.

Pretty ludicrous huh? Unfortunately, it's extremely hard to pull off coherently, especially for the bassist who needs to have the feel of the Gods in order to match intervals to form harmonies on the spot.
#10
Quote by TMVATDI
i really dont understand shit about inversions i thought i understood them before but now i dont think i even have the definition correct.
i know it involves putting a note other than the root in the bass but idk anything more than that

All an inversion is putting a different note as the bass. For example, C E G is a C Major in root position. E C G (E G C) would be first inversion, and G E C (G C E) would be second inversion.

What I meant by the sixth from bass to root would be this. When you use the typical first inversion chord shape on guitar:


Bb/D
E---
B-6-
G-7-
D-8-
A-5-
E---

Make the D a Db for the Minor version


There is a sixth between the third (in the bass at 5th string 5th fret) and the Bb (4th string, 8th fret).

@Pillo: While that's cool and all... what was the point of saying it?
Last edited by DiminishedFifth at Jul 23, 2010,
#11
Quote by Pillo114
If you listened to Ornette Coleman, it's the basis of his "free" music. He doesn't have chords nor a chord playing instrument. So while he messes around playing around with the melody the bass, basses, or other instruments are following him creating interval combinations between his notes and their notes.

That allows him to break free from having to follow chords, a set number of bars or even having to reach a set destination. The band can take it wherever it wants, and even if it wants to reside within original melody, it doesn't have to be restrained to a set number of bars as the band can adapt the harmony on the spot.

Pretty ludicrous huh? Unfortunately, it's extremely hard to pull off coherently, especially for the bassist who needs to have the feel of the Gods in order to match intervals to form harmonies on the spot.


Isn't that just "jamming" a counterpoint.

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#12
Oh that it's not a new idea and how far it's been taken and can be taken. You never know if TMVA will get some sort of crazy inspiration out of it.

I know it's not exactly what he was asking but it's related, and it's probably within some of the most radical stuff in music today. I mean cmon, You're no longer improvising and playing on the chords, you're improvising on the actual form of the music all at the same time you're being fully pantonal because of the value and relationships of the notes and intervals.

I just blew my own mind, back to playing bass

Isn't that just "jamming" a counterpoint.


Essentially but in different intervals and tonalities, with the addition that if you're playing what was an original 12 bar blues the soloist could accomodate his solo to add or remove bars from within the blues form, so if you really like the IV IV section licks a lot you could expand it since the band would be following you instead of a solid blues form. So it's basically the next step after modal music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqwdRBWvPs0

/hijack over
Last edited by Pillo114 at Jul 23, 2010,
#13
Quote by DiminishedFifth
All an inversion is putting a different note as the bass. For example, C E G is a C Major in root position. E C G (E G C) would be first inversion, and G E C (G C E) would be second inversion.

What I meant by the sixth from bass to root would be this. When you use the typical first inversion chord shape on guitar:


Bb/D
E---
B-6-
G-7-
D-8-
A-5-
E---

Make the D a Db for the Minor version


There is a sixth between the third (in the bass at 5th string 5th fret) and the Bb (4th string, 8th fret).

@Pillo: While that's cool and all... what was the point of saying it?

i tend to think of all theory in terms of scales instead of intervals, so this is more confusing to me than it would be for most lol.

like when some1 says "put a 6 in Cmajor" i'll include the note A because its the 6th degree of the C major scale, i dont really like figuring out intervals.

but, in terms of intervals, a 6th in a Cmajor chord would be a...fudge, i need help haha i feel so stupid when talking abt theory this way
#14
Quote by TMVATDI
i tend to think of all theory in terms of scales instead of intervals, so this is more confusing to me than it would be for most lol.

like when some1 says "put a 6 in Cmajor" i'll include the note A because its the 6th degree of the C major scale, i dont really like figuring out intervals.

but, in terms of intervals, a 6th in a Cmajor chord would be a...fudge, i need help haha i feel so stupid when talking abt theory this way

Well, that's why you're having a hard time understanding things. Music is intervals; not scales. It started off being the relationship between seven different notes. Someone decided that these seven notes have to sound good for a reason, and then they ordered the notes based on what they heard. It all started with intervals; not scales.

You had it right. A 6 in C Major would be an A.

@Pillo: If I ever meet you we're doing that. That would be hella fun.
#15
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Well, that's why you're having a hard time understanding things. Music is intervals; not scales. It started off being the relationship between seven different notes. Someone decided that these seven notes have to sound good for a reason, and then they ordered the notes based on what they heard. It all started with intervals; not scales.

You had it right. A 6 in C Major would be an A.

@Pillo: If I ever meet you we're doing that. That would be hella fun.

i have a book called "practical theory: a self instructive music theory course" that mostly teaches in intervals, but i mostly just skimmed thru it and haven't used most of what it taught me. i guess i should read it more in depth.

so, back to inversions, since i'm still thinking in terms of scales for now, would the 2nd note be the 6th degree of the major scale using the bass note as that scale's root?

what i mean is, for the Cmajor chord, if E is in the bass, then the next note is C, if i went through the Emajor scale, would C be the 6th degree?
E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, nope i guess its not. now im even more confused
#16
Quote by TMVATDI
i have a book called "practical theory: a self instructive music theory course" that mostly teaches in intervals, but i mostly just skimmed thru it and haven't used most of what it taught me. i guess i should read it more in depth.

so, back to inversions, since i'm still thinking in terms of scales for now, would the 2nd note be the 6th degree of the major scale using the bass note as that scale's root?

what i mean is, for the Cmajor chord, if E is in the bass, then the next note is C, if i went through the Emajor scale, would C be the 6th degree?
E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, nope i guess its not. now im even more confused

Again, you're confusing yourself by thinking in terms of scales (and, by the way, a version of C is the sixth scale degree, so you're right in the line of thought... just not the application).

If E is in the bass and we had the next note as a C then there is a Generic Sixth between the two notes (really it's a Minor Sixth, but we don't care about all that when harmonizing).

C E G
E C G
E F G A B C

Notice how C is the sixth note away from E? That's a Generic Sixth. That's what I meant by a sixth away.
Last edited by DiminishedFifth at Jul 23, 2010,
#17
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Again, you're confusing yourself by thinking in terms of scales (and, by the way, a version of C is the sixth scale degree, so you're right in the line of thought... just not the application).

If E is in the bass and we had the next note as a C then there is a Generic Sixth between the two notes (really it's a Minor Sixth, but we don't care about all that when harmonizing).

C E G
E C G
E F G A B C

Notice how C is the sixth note away from E? That's a Generic Sixth. That's what I meant by a sixth away.

OH! then...what abt sharps and flats??
#18
Quote by TMVATDI
OH! then...what abt sharps and flats??

When talking about Generic Intervals (2nds, 3rds, 4ths, etc.) you don't worry about specifying whether it's Major or Minor. You just worry about the distance between the two. I usually use this when I'm harmonizing or something. "I just want thirds here", or "I want a fifth here". It's best when everything is diatonic.

E to C# is still a Generic Sixth no matter that there's a sharp now. Now, if we wanted to get specific if would be a Major Sixth. E to C would be a Minor Sixth. But if all you're doing is harmonizing diatonically, it doesn't really matter whether it's a Major or Minor Sixth... just the fact it's a Sixth will be enough.
#19
Quote by DiminishedFifth
When talking about Generic Intervals (2nds, 3rds, 4ths, etc.) you don't worry about specifying whether it's Major or Minor. You just worry about the distance between the two. I usually use this when I'm harmonizing or something. "I just want thirds here", or "I want a fifth here". It's best when everything is diatonic.

E to C# is still a Generic Sixth no matter that there's a sharp now. Now, if we wanted to get specific if would be a Major Sixth. E to C would be a Minor Sixth. But if all you're doing is harmonizing diatonically, it doesn't really matter whether it's a Major or Minor Sixth... just the fact it's a Sixth will be enough.

ok, i really have to study up on intervals...
i dont even get the different between generic, minor, major, diatonic, or whatever. i get all those terms (except generic) when talking abt scales but they dont make sense to me with intervals.
#20
why would you harmonize in fifths ??? try something higher than this or lower than this
major third or purfrkt4th in lower major 7th or tritone in higher ..
#21
Quote by kian89
why would you harmonize in fifths ??? try something higher than this or lower than this
major third or purfrkt4th in lower major 7th or tritone in higher ..

we figured it out, read the convo between me and diminished.
thanks for trying anyway lol
and thanks diminished for helping me with inversions, intervals, and whatever im forgetting