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#1
What is it that makes a diezel vh4 so versatile while a 6505 is about as flexible as concrete? If you look at it, many amps have the same number of tubes, channels, etc

so what makes a baron k88 so much more versatile than a 2 channel jcm800?

This puzzles me, because while yes versatility generally cost more, why not offer more versatile options? Why does soldano offer a 3 channel head? Or why doesn't peavey put a better clean on the 6505+?

Along with this, I would like to make a list of gear that is very food tonally but is still very usable for many different styles

any thoughts and contributions would be helpful

thanks
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#2
Reserved for list of amps
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BARE KNUCKLE PUPS RULE!
Quote by gumbilicious
thanks for making an old dude feel like his advice is actually taken into consideration
#3
how many different sounds can you get out of it. for example, mesa dual rectifier, not very flexible really only two, maybe three sounds you can get out of it.
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#4
Quote by viper_mike
how many different sounds can you get out of it. for example, mesa dual rectifier, not very flexible really only two, maybe three sounds you can get out of it.


i'll happily argue that thats nonsense about the Dual Rec, i've found mine to be incredibly versatile

to me an amps versatility is essentially how many different tones/genres of music it that it can do well. eg a JCM800 only has one channel and is pretty much for mid-high gain tones whereas something like a Mesa Mk4 can do everything from very nice cleans to searing high gain metal tones
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#5
Quote by shredftw
i'll happily argue that thats nonsense about the Dual Rec, i've found mine to be incredibly versatile



+1

although i haven't played one myself ,but i have seen tons of band and videos that used the rectifiers. I saw Jay Z and Eminem use it. So hows that for versatility?

To me versatility is being able to dial in bunch of different tones without having to tweak knobs to go through them.

The Deziel is versatile because i can have a clean sound, dirty, heavy rhythm, and all out brootal! That is versatility. Also they obviously have to sound great. I also think there is levels of a versatility, Because if you think about it a Peavey vypyr is a lot more versatile than a Dual rec but i would take a dual rec without even testing it any day.

Al
Quote by MatrixClaw
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Quote by BobDetroit
The real question is why the **** are you talking to your mom about a Mesa?What the hell did you think she was going to say?"No dear, I prefer Dual Rec tone?!"
Last edited by Aashraya at Jul 23, 2010,
#6
What is it that makes a diezel vh4 so versatile while a 6505 is about as flexible as concrete?

Don’t forget that not everyone wants or needs a really flexible amp. As an amp gets more capable it also gets much more complicated. Mesa created the Roadster because some people don’t want to screw around with the complexity of a Road King .I get confused just looking at the back of some Mesa and Diezel amps. For someone who has the time (or technicians) to maintain and configure a Diezel VH4 while touring the country it’s a great amp. For three guys touring in a rented van who only need two sounds for their entire show the 6505 probably makes more sense.
#7
But what I mean is like what INSIDE the amps makes them more versatile?

Like the Mesa road king is a beast with more options than most people even know what to do with, but there are other amps that are just as versatile but are much cheaper

and ten there's the axe fx which is a game changer because it is one of the only forms of modeling that is considered to be almost if not just as good as the real deal
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Quote by gumbilicious
thanks for making an old dude feel like his advice is actually taken into consideration
#8
Quote by shredftw
i'll happily argue that thats nonsense about the Dual Rec, i've found mine to be incredibly versatile


maybe that's just me, i found that channels 2 and 3 are pretty much the same, i didn't mind the older 2 channel version though
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#9
Quote by Aashraya
+1

although i haven't played one myself ,but i have seen tons of band and videos that used the rectifiers. I saw Jay Z and Eminem use it. So hows that for versatility?

To me versatility is being able to dial in bunch of different tones without having to tweak knobs to go through them.

The Deziel is versatile because i can have a clean sound, dirty, heavy rhythm, and all out brootal! That is versatility. Also they obviously have to sound great. I also think there is levels of a versatility, Because if you think about it a Peavey vypyr is a lot more versatile than a Dual rec but i would take a dual rec without even testing it any day.

Al



Well yes while a vypyr is more versatile and is budget friendly, for the sake of this thread, I am simply asking about non modeling gear, save perhaps the axe fx, but the axe is just kind of ridiculous for many reasons...
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Quote by gumbilicious
thanks for making an old dude feel like his advice is actually taken into consideration
#10
gainstages are cruical (almost as much as quality components), the more you have the more you can do stuff with. A Supro amp with one gain stage won't really do anything, but the SLO100 can go from clean to crunch to heavy crunch to lead because it has around 3-4 stages of gain.

obviously other knobs and such do effect the versatility of the amp, just because an amp has 5 gain stages doesn't mean a 3 gain stager couldn't be as versatile
#11
It's about the range of each control parameter, as well as the quality of the tone with different settings. You don't necessarily need 3 channels for the amp to be versatile, but it does need to have a range of gain values, and a flexible EQ and other tone-shaping options.

Some amps will sound like they're missing something unless they're dialed in perfectly. Others will sound good regardless of the settings. I don't know which specific elements of the amp's design contribute to this.

Also, sometimes, rather than having a wide range of tones, an amplifier will have one sound which is applicable in many situations. That's not really "versatility" but it still has a range of applications, and is therefore popular for artists in different styles.
#12
if you can understand what the word versatile means, then you should be able to answer your own question
#13
it seems like your searching for a certain answer ts, people have told you many options but you keep adding on to your question. is there a certain answer your looking for that may be easier to answer than what makes an amp versatile?
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#14
like versatile means versatile............... how much more do you need to know? if it can handle different styles well instead of just one, then it's versatile.

/thread


EDIT:Hopefully this post will make you realize how dumb of a question this is
#15
Well, I don't mean to keep adding on, I guess it's a question to ask a builder, because what I mean is, what makes a fender double verb different from a peavey classic if they have the same tubes? Why does a mark v sound so different from an engl if they have the same tubes and such

seeing as this questions has very litle chance of getting answered definitly I guess I just won't worry about it beyond, what are some good multiple channel heads you know of that can get a wide range of sounds

perhaps this may help someone along the road
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Peavey XXX-->Avatar 4X12(2 V30's 2 G12H30's)

BARE KNUCKLE PUPS RULE!
Quote by gumbilicious
thanks for making an old dude feel like his advice is actually taken into consideration
#16
cause all amps are built differently, with different parts, different circuitry, wattage, features, tube brands, etc. etc. etc.


how about a Line 6 Spider 3? They have 4 channels


just because an amp has more channels doesn't always make it versatile. you could easily find a single channel amp that is just as versatile as some 2-3 channel amps. I wouldn't be worried about needing a 3 channel amp, really not necessary if you know how to use a basic eq.

LEARN HOW TO USE YOUR EQ
Last edited by handbanana at Jul 23, 2010,
#17
Quote by handbanana
cause all amps are built differently, with different parts, different circuitry, wattage, features, tube brands, etc. etc. etc.


how about a Line 6 Spider 3? They have 4 channels


just because an amp has more channels doesn't always make it versatile. you could easily find a single channel amp that is just as versatile as some 2-3 channel amps. I wouldn't be worried about needing a 3 channel amp, really not necessary if you know how to use a basic eq.

LEARN HOW TO USE YOUR EQ



Lol, I know how to use an eq, but for a live instance, a 1 channel amp can't really switch in between clean and dirty or full on distortion very well, or at least not as well as say, a bogner ecstasy

so while a modded plexi may be versatile, it's not super useful for changing gain amounts
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BARE KNUCKLE PUPS RULE!
Quote by gumbilicious
thanks for making an old dude feel like his advice is actually taken into consideration
#18
Quote by Metalmaker
Lol, I know how to use an eq, but for a live instance, a 1 channel amp can't really switch in between clean and dirty or full on distortion very well, or at least not as well as say, a bogner ecstasy

so while a modded plexi may be versatile, it's not super useful for changing gain amounts



thats what pedals are for dude
#19
also, guitar volume knob? listen to hendrix and zepp. they got a huge array of sound cause they used their guitars volume knob, they would set the amp dirty and lower their volume for clean, raise it up a bit for mid gain, and on 10 you got vintage plexi roar. also what's a double verb? deluxe reverb or twin reverb are the only ones i can see making a connection with a double verb. and a peavy classic has el-84's a fender reverb will have 6l6 or 6v6. and tubes dont make an amp versatile, a marshall sounds alot different than a bogner uberschall.
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#20
Quote by Metalmaker
Well, I don't mean to keep adding on, I guess it's a question to ask a builder, because what I mean is, what makes a fender double verb different from a peavey classic if they have the same tubes? Why does a mark v sound so different from an engl if they have the same tubes and such

seeing as this questions has very litle chance of getting answered definitly I guess I just won't worry about it beyond, what are some good multiple channel heads you know of that can get a wide range of sounds

perhaps this may help someone along the road


wat

It will be answered definitely in the following sentence. Their designs are very different. Number and types of tubes do not instantly determine an amps sound. A Twin Reverb has tons of tubes but because of their functions, it isn't a high gain channel switcher.
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#21
Quote by viper_mike
how many different sounds can you get out of it. for example, mesa dual rectifier, not very flexible really only two, maybe three sounds you can get out of it.


Fail.

Mesa's. Including the Dual Rectifiers are some of the most versatile amps in the world.

Don't believe me?

How come they are such a metal amp, But Shania Twain's guitarist, Carrie Underwood's guitarist and a crap load of Disney studio/stage musicians use the Dual Rectos?
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Last edited by Benguitar2 at Jul 23, 2010,
#22
knowledge dump.

You are confusing a couple of different types of versatility here.

1. Versatility in Tone - How many usable sounds can you get out of an Amp.
- This type of versatility is independent of other features. It is dependent solely on how good the amp sounds throughout the range of it's controls.
- Therefore, some amps are more versatile then others because amp A may have only a few useful sounds, i.e. designed soley to be run with the gain dimed whereas amp B may be designed to have a whole range of useful tones by mixing the gain and master volume.
-This is not dependent on the number of channels. As such, the Fryette deliverance even though it is only a single channel amp has a lot of tonal versatility. There are almost an infinite number good sounds you can get out of it. The SLO100 being a 2+1 channel amp is also versatile in the same way. I would say that a standard dual rec or tri-rec even though it has more channels and voicing then a deliverance is not as versatile because it has to be dialed in a certain way to sound good.

2. Versatility in features. This is where you get into the number of features that an amp has. You need to differentiate between quality and quantity in terms of features.
It is not hard to add features to an amp.

-Let's start with channel switching. By now channel switching is a pretty common set up for big amps. However, channel switching is dependent on a number of variables. The first is the quality of the channels. If an amp has 9 channels but only 1 channel sounds good. Then it is not as versatile as an amp with 3 channels where every channel sounds good. Therefore, an amp like the 6505 is comparatively less versatile then a CAA pt100, or a slo100. The clean channel is simply not as usable as the overdrive channel on the 6505 as it is on those other amps. Therefore, if an amp has more then one usable channel it will be more versatile then an amp with only one usable channel.

- Other features. The most important of these are, fx loop, line out, and other fancy stuff. It is not hard to add a line out or an fx loop to an amp. It is hard to make sure that the components utilized and the circuit design result in a clean loop that does not color the tone or is noise free enough to actually make the fx loop worth it.
- Other features can also include, class a/ab switching, half power/full power, independent eq's for each channel, reverb, channel masters, amp masters, footswitching, etc etc. Realize that the longer the signal chain is between point a and point b the more the signal suffers from degradation. Therefore, an amp with a shared eq between it's channels and a an amp with 2 eqs will have different requirements for signal buffering. To make the signal sound good in such a set up you need to design a circuit with a greater number of tube buffers. Therefore, you need a tube buffer for the fx loop, a tube buffer for the reverb, a tone stack driver, a tone stack buffer, etc etc. Those things cost money to implement and design. SS components are cheaper in those areas but may or may not sound as good.

I think that covers that basics. In terms of sound versatility, an amp with more usable sounds will always be more versatile then an amp with only a few usable sounds. However, designing an amp with parity between all of its channels costs more in design and implementation.

An amp with more features may or may not be more versatile. This depends on if the features are actually useful or not. Versatility in features may negatively affect versatility in sound. In the budget amps below 1500 there is an absolute trade off between these two factors.

So what would I consider the most versatile amp? The most versatile amp I've found so far is the Fryette Pittbull Ultralead. 3 very usable channels with different voices and boost options for each channel. The fx loop can be taken out of the circuit entirely when not in use. The amp can be switched from full power to half power. It's got a parametric graphic eq that can be switched in or out of the circuit. Hi/Lo inputs. It also has a power amp mute that shuts down the power amp section when the head is used only has a pre amp in a wet dry rig.

Now all of these features could be implemented in a cheaper amp but that amps versatility will be directly affected by wether or not those features actually sound good enough to be useful.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#23
Quote by Skagasm
also, guitar volume knob? listen to hendrix and zepp. they got a huge array of sound cause they used their guitars volume knob, they would set the amp dirty and lower their volume for clean, raise it up a bit for mid gain, and on 10 you got vintage plexi roar. also what's a double verb? deluxe reverb or twin reverb are the only ones i can see making a connection with a double verb. and a peavy classic has el-84's a fender reverb will have 6l6 or 6v6. and tubes dont make an amp versatile, a marshall sounds alot different than a bogner uberschall.



+1 on volume knob. that's a good call too. although you will find that the volume knob effect will vary from guitar to guitar and from amp to amp.

My 5150 and SG are both very very sensitive to the volume knob. Whereas my Les Paul and my old Marshall AVT were not very volume knob friendly.
#25
I think people expect way too much, tonally, from amps. Although, for the price ($2000+) that's to be expected.

In my opinion, one of the largest questions of "versatility" is the controls. If an amp has a good distortion, and good crunch, and nice cleans, all seperately EQable and seperate volumes, and easy to switch between, that's my idea of versatility. I don't give a flying **** if I can sound exactly like BTBAM one minute and SRV the next. Ideally I would buy an amp for it's own tone, not to have an exact copy of other peoples tones.
#26
i mean i don't even need that much versatility in features, i would be perfectly happy with a single channel amp, with master vol, 3 band eq, and reverb. thats really all I need. Luckily my amp does all of that(except master volume but I have that under control now), with two channe;s and two unputs, and crunch and brigth switches, it's almost like heaving 10 channels with the different things I can do. No idea why people say 5150's aren't versatile. The clean channel really isn't as bad as people say. Then again I don't really use it much....
My only issue is my reverb not working, but whatever.
#28
Leprechauns and pixie dust = vursatill toanz.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Feel free to express yours so I can make an informed judgement about how stupid you are.
#29
Quote by AcousticMirror
It's got a parametric graphic eq


wat.


Anyway, the rest of that post is pretty much what I was thinking for a response, but explained much better than I could have.

The quality of parts used impacts the overall sound as well. Only as strong as the weakest link in the chain.
I have a huge fear if rays.
#30
@acousticmirror it's the same as this, i can get a lot off different sounds from it, obviously does do best for metal though

#32
You see those two controls labeled Rhythm Post and Lead Post? Those are master volumes.
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#33
haha, why did noone tell me this before? after people told me im an idiot for not buying a master volume amp..... and yeah, i pretty much had been using them that way anyway, and i finally got the settings exactly where i like them today.
#34
i guess them not being labeled as gain/drive and volume is what threw me off, i feel so dumb
#35
I see what you guys are getting at, but those are essentially just channel volumes aren't they? Even though they still work as the master volume...

As opposed to most master volume amps where you would have the same controls, in addition to a specific master volume control.
I have a huge fear if rays.
#36
A master volume is a volume knob that comes after a preamp section to allow you to crank the initial volume knob for distortion.
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#37
Quote by sashki
You don't necessarily need 3 channels for the amp to be versatile, but it does need to have a range of gain values, and a flexible EQ and other tone-shaping options.


Quote by handbanana



just because an amp has more channels doesn't always make it versatile. you could easily find a single channel amp that is just as versatile as some 2-3 channel amps. I wouldn't be worried about needing a 3 channel amp, really not necessary if you know how to use a basic eq.

LEARN HOW TO USE YOUR EQ



I never said you needed a 3 channel amp i was just saying what "I" think versatility is. It is for me to be able to switch in different sounds without having to go to my amp and turn the knobs(which 3 channels would help)

Quote by Metalmaker
Lol, I know how to use an eq, but for a live instance, a 1 channel amp can't really switch in between clean and dirty or full on distortion very well, or at least not as well as say, a bogner ecstasy

so while a modded plexi may be versatile, it's not super useful for changing gain amounts



This is more my point of view.

Say for instance you have an amp that can go from fender clean to 5150 metal gain, but the amp only had one channel. It would limit you to choose one option for live playing unless your good and knob dancing.

Quote by handbanana
thats what pedals are for dude


And Yes their are pedals but if you want to put that into the equations than versatile amps are not needed just get a plexi or fender twin and add some OD/Distortion

Than there is no need to even have this discussion if your argument is to use pedals.
Quote by MatrixClaw
anyway, i must be off, my gf says we gotta go cause i poked her and now she's bleeding

Quote by BobDetroit
The real question is why the **** are you talking to your mom about a Mesa?What the hell did you think she was going to say?"No dear, I prefer Dual Rec tone?!"
Last edited by Aashraya at Jul 23, 2010,
#38
doesn't really matter. the pre is the gain control the post is the channel master control. They could have added another amp master like the pittbull has but that's really just balancing out the final output stage. If you turn the pre on the lead all the way up and the post down it's doing the same thing...blowing up the preamp tubes and leaving the power amp tubes cool.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#39
IMO I agree with AM except I would break it down into versatility of sound in:
1. Studio: where all the 1 channel amps shine. If you can get 30 great tones and it's only 1 channel, it does not matter.

2. Live: this is where you went into features. What is the point in a single channel amp live if you want cleans, crunch, rhythm, and lead sounds in the same song. I'm not talking about pedals or midi switchers either, only amp versatility. So if you can't nail the exact tone, but the features are there live, IMO the amp is more usably versatile.


My mark iv has a billion switches that make useable sounds, but there is no way to use it live.
/rig
Last edited by mespinos at Jul 23, 2010,
#40
Quote by mespinos
IMO I agree with AM except I would break it down into versatility of sound in:
1. Studio: where all the 1 channel amps shine. If you can get 30 great tones and it's only 1 channel, it does not matter.

2. Live: this is where you went into features. What is the point in a single channel amp live if you want cleans, crunch, rhythm, and lead sounds in the same song. I'm not talking about pedals or mid switchers either, only amp versatility. So if you can't nail the exact tone, but the features are there live, IMO the amp is more usably versatile.



+1000

that what i'm talking about

Quote by AcousticMirror


-This is not dependent on the number of channels. As such, the Fryette deliverance even though it is only a single channel amp has a lot of tonal versatility. There are almost an infinite number good sounds you can get out of it. The SLO100 being a 2+1 channel amp is also versatile in the same way. I would say that a standard dual rec or tri-rec even though it has more channels and voicing then a deliverance is not as versatile because it has to be dialed in a certain way to sound good.

2. Versatility in features. This is where you get into the number of features that an amp has. You need to differentiate between quality and quantity in terms of features.
It is not hard to add features to an amp.

-Let's start with channel switching. By now channel switching is a pretty common set up for big amps. However, channel switching is dependent on a number of variables. The first is the quality of the channels. If an amp has 9 channels but only 1 channel sounds good. Then it is not as versatile as an amp with 3 channels where every channel sounds good. Therefore, an amp like the 6505 is comparatively less versatile then a CAA pt100, or a slo100. The clean channel is simply not as usable as the overdrive channel on the 6505 as it is on those other amps. Therefore, if an amp has more then one usable channel it will be more versatile then an amp with only one usable channel.


I hope the channel thing wasn't directed at me.

Plus i can also say what if that amp with 1 channel has a crappy channel. than i would rather take 2 bad and 1 good. But that is not what i'm saying.

I'm talking if you were to match a 5150 and a Triple rec(2 channel)

which would you say is more versatile.

I still agree with what your saying about the channels and all but you cant have variables like that where the 3 channel supposedly has 2 bad channels.


Everything i'm saying is based on live playing. Where things have to be on spot. So that might also change what versatility means.
Quote by MatrixClaw
anyway, i must be off, my gf says we gotta go cause i poked her and now she's bleeding

Quote by BobDetroit
The real question is why the **** are you talking to your mom about a Mesa?What the hell did you think she was going to say?"No dear, I prefer Dual Rec tone?!"
Last edited by Aashraya at Jul 23, 2010,
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