Poll: Should this have been leaked?
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View poll results: Should this have been leaked?
I support the war and this shouldn't have been leaked
20 14%
I support the war and this should have been leaked
17 12%
I don't support the war and this shouldn't have been leaked
18 12%
I don't support the war and this should have been leaked
92 63%
Voters: 147.
Page 1 of 3
#1
So, with the help of WikiLeaks, a massive release of secret files has been made by The New York Times, The Guardian, and Die Spiegel.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/series/afghanistan-the-war-logs

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/world/war-logs.html

They paint a pretty bleak picture of the conflict, and reveal a lot of uncomfortable truths about the tactics used, and the human costs.

Were they right to release this? Could it compromise troops and strategy, as the army try to claim?

And does it change your view on the conflict?
#2
"I support the war and this shouldn't have been leaked"

Somethings we don't know for a reason. Unfortunately, unlike in wars such as WWII, the media doesn't give a flip about the consequences for releasing information like this, they just want to be able to say that they had story.
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#3
Without actually reading the articles:

I think that entering Afghanistan was the right thing to do. I don't think the way they've conducted the war until recently has been right, and support the approach that Gen. Patraeus will be using with the assistance of David Kilcullen (which he's said has been used in the last few years).
Quote by Vornik
Thanks for the advice. I'm going to put it, along with your other advice, into a book, the pages of which I will then use to wipe my ass.
#4
Its viral advertising for the new call of duty game.


(not really)
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#5
Quote by Jasonbts
"I support the war and this shouldn't have been leaked"

Somethings we don't know for a reason. Unfortunately, unlike in wars such as WWII, the media doesn't give a flip about the consequences for releasing information like this, they just want to be able to say that they had story.


So you're quite happy for your government, which, theoretically, represents you, to do things in a war that you might disagree with to a scale you would no longer disagree with the war?

Hypothetically, let's say WikiLeaks next leak is a story about Petraeus ordering a village in Helmand to be bombed off the map for having housed an insurgent, or something similar.

Would you still be against the leak? Would we have a right to know then?


@dann

Why did you support the original venture? I don't ask as a challenge, but that must factor into your concept of what "victory" will mean. Do you think victory is a possibility, and that ISAF forces will ever be able to leave with some form of dignity?
#6
I (my parents) pay taxes that fund the military's operations. Its just as much my right to know whats going on as anyone else. Frankly, its disappointing that this info has to be "leaked."
#7
I don't support the war and this should have been leaked.

It's pretty fucking obvious messed up things are going to happen, it is war afterall. We can't really expect them to give each other flowers when they are sent over there to kill.
#8
I think this has the potential to really shift support for the war. Above all:

• How the Taliban have caused growing carnage with a massive escalation of their roadside bombing campaign, which has killed more than 2,000 civilians to date.

• How the US covered up evidence that the Taliban have acquired deadly surface-to-air missiles.

• How the coalition is increasingly using deadly Reaper drones to hunt and kill Taliban targets by remote control from a base in Nevada.

The first two just show that it's not getting any safer, or even, getting worse, for everyone involved. And that last one, begs the question of why troops are even there.
#9
It's only a matter of time before people start figuring out how fucked up this war is and forces congress to pull out.

This right here just shows that the problem is escalating and isn't going to get better.

Everyone should watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3I6SxMpivo
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Last edited by Gyroscope : Tomorrow at 01:00 PM.
Last edited by Gyroscope at Jul 26, 2010,
#10
Quote by gabcd86
@dann

Why did you support the original venture? I don't ask as a challenge, but that must factor into your concept of what "victory" will mean. Do you think victory is a possibility, and that ISAF forces will ever be able to leave with some form of dignity?

Because the Taliban are batshit insane and are a very violent group that have perverted a peaceful religion into a hate-driven, oppressive ideology. Don't get me wrong - I don't rate the Western countries highly either (thats a whole 'nother can of worms), but the Taliban poses a serious problem. One of their main goals was to provoke a response from the West that'd get to the point where there'd be an uprising in the Muslim world and the creation of a Muslim supernation that would fight the West and eventually impose their beliefs on the rest of the world, and their method for doing that was to keep on provoking the West through operations in both Afghanistan and other countries to get the reaction.

I think going in and trying to remove the taliban was the only real option. Of course, I think that the methodology used initially and the way the war has been conducted until recently has been the wrong approach, and that's been a major failing of the West - this is a war that can't be won by military conquest, Afghanistan is a nightmare for traditional warfare tacticians, it's basically unconquerable.

What do I think victory will mean? Creating an Afghani populace that is able to stop being taken advantage of by the Taliban and are able to organise themselves to keep the Taliban out. Eliminating the Taliban is nigh impossible, but preventing them from having a population to latch onto pretty much neuters them. I think that victory is possible given the accounts i've read by David Kilcullen and that a persistent effort and commitment is there until the end. I don't think that allied forces will be able to leave with any dignity given the way the war began and was conducted for over half a decade.
Quote by Vornik
Thanks for the advice. I'm going to put it, along with your other advice, into a book, the pages of which I will then use to wipe my ass.
#11
Quote by gabcd86
he first two just show that it's not getting any safer, or even, getting worse, for everyone involved. And that last one, begs the question of why troops are even there.


You need people on the ground. What's to stop the Taliban from operating in a heavily populated area? You couldn't send in drones without risking more civilian lives.
#12
It would be a disgrace that the cover up of innocent deaths goes unnoticed so I think it was good that it was leaked. The footage of the apache helicopter's shooting up the Reuters journalists and photographers is disgusting.
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#13
Quote by dann_blood
Because the Taliban are batshit insane and are a very violent group that have perverted a peaceful religion into a hate-driven, oppressive ideology. Don't get me wrong - I don't rate the Western countries highly either (thats a whole 'nother can of worms), but the Taliban poses a serious problem. One of their main goals was to provoke a response from the West that'd get to the point where there'd be an uprising in the Muslim world and the creation of a Muslim supernation that would fight the West and eventually impose their beliefs on the rest of the world, and their method for doing that was to keep on provoking the West through operations in both Afghanistan and other countries to get the reaction.

I think going in and trying to remove the taliban was the only real option. Of course, I think that the methodology used initially and the way the war has been conducted until recently has been the wrong approach, and that's been a major failing of the West - this is a war that can't be won by military conquest, Afghanistan is a nightmare for traditional warfare tacticians, it's basically unconquerable.

What do I think victory will mean? Creating an Afghani populace that is able to stop being taken advantage of by the Taliban and are able to organise themselves to keep the Taliban out. Eliminating the Taliban is nigh impossible, but preventing them from having a population to latch onto pretty much neuters them. I think that victory is possible given the accounts i've read by David Kilcullen and that a persistent effort and commitment is there until the end. I don't think that allied forces will be able to leave with any dignity given the way the war began and was conducted for over half a decade.




Pretty much agreed. Question is whether the political will remains for it. Aside from Britain and the USA, most of ISAF is looking at withdrawal, and even they are already eying the door, no?
#14
I don't support the war but, I support the troops - If the media is leaking things that is going to make their job more difficult, I wish they wouldn't do it.

I breifly skimmed the articles, and I didn't see any thing that compromised troop security. But the news has been know to leak things like that. And I don't think censoring the press is an option to stop this sort of thing, I just wish that the people reporting it would think about how reporting certain things might hurt our guys.
#15
Quote by gabcd86


Pretty much agreed. Question is whether the political will remains for it. Aside from Britain and the USA, most of ISAF is looking at withdrawal, and even they are already eying the door, no?

Countries have been gradually withdrawing for a while now, and there's probably going to be a mass walkout bar a few main players, who might withdraw early anyway. Thing is, popular opinion is driving most of these decisions, and the majority of people generally know fuck-all about the conflict. If we withdraw early, we're just going to end up going back in, and it's going to be a hell of alot tougher because we'll have broken the trust of the population worse than before, and the Taliban sure as hell won't waste any time asserting their control.
Quote by Vornik
Thanks for the advice. I'm going to put it, along with your other advice, into a book, the pages of which I will then use to wipe my ass.
#16
Quote by Captain Insano
I don't support the war but, I support the troops - If the media is leaking things that is going to make their job more difficult, I wish they wouldn't do it.

I breifly skimmed the articles, and I didn't see any thing that compromised troop security. But the news has been know to leak things like that. And I don't think censoring the press is an option to stop this sort of thing, I just wish that the people reporting it would think about how reporting certain things might hurt our guys.

Wikileaks says it has delayed the release of about 15,000 reports from the archive as part of a "harm minimisation process demanded by our source".

Yay for reading the article.


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#17
I don't support the war and this should have been leaked.

that is all.
You who build these altars now

To sacrifice these children
You must not do it anymore
#18
I think going in to stop the Taliban is a good idea, even if it was a massive **** up at the beginning. I'm okay with what's going on now, except that I think Australia has no place in combat. We aren't an aggressive nation, and we shouldn't be pretending to be bigger and scarier than we are. P
...In my opinion.
#20
Quote by dann_blood
Because the Taliban are batshit insane and are a very violent group that have perverted a peaceful religion into a hate-driven, oppressive ideology. Don't get me wrong - I don't rate the Western countries highly either (thats a whole 'nother can of worms), but the Taliban poses a serious problem. One of their main goals was to provoke a response from the West that'd get to the point where there'd be an uprising in the Muslim world and the creation of a Muslim supernation that would fight the West and eventually impose their beliefs on the rest of the world, and their method for doing that was to keep on provoking the West through operations in both Afghanistan and other countries to get the reaction.

Can I get a source on this?
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Last edited by Gyroscope : Tomorrow at 01:00 PM.
#21
Quote by tubatom868686
I (my parents) pay taxes that fund the military's operations. Its just as much my right to know whats going on as anyone else. Frankly, its disappointing that this info has to be "leaked."

That's where you're dead wrong. YOU don't have those rights. Some things are not meant to be known by everyone. In every war in the history of man, there is information that the general public never knew about, and that's just the way it is. Now you have kids coming along saying "I'm against war(which they don't have the right to be, but I'll probably get to that later), or "I have the right to know". There are some things bigger than yourself, and if every detail about war is public, it could hurt the war effort and the country severely. But if that's what you're willing to sacrifice so you can feel important and informed, then I feel bad for you, but more importantly I feel bad for this country that you were born in it.
Rockabilly rules, Okay?
#22
Quote by Neal5189
That's where you're dead wrong. YOU don't have those rights. Some things are not meant to be known by everyone. In every war in the history of man, there is information that the general public never knew about, and that's just the way it is. Now you have kids coming along saying "I'm against war(which they don't have the right to be, but I'll probably get to that later), or "I have the right to know". There are some things bigger than yourself, and if every detail about war is public, it could hurt the war effort and the country severely. But if that's what you're willing to sacrifice so you can feel important and informed, then I feel bad for you, but more importantly I feel bad for this country that you were born in it.


Are you fucking serious?

I agree with what dann said up the page, but no. Government for the people, by the people, right? They're doing this stuff in my name, and I should be in possession of the full evidence of what they're doing.

And who are you to decide what we have a right to think? Jesus, it's people like you that nod approvingly as dictators get in power for the good of "national security and order".
#23
this isn't going to make it anymore difficult for the troops, it simply exposes the nature of the war.
if we can't have public inquiries into this ridiculous war the papers can atleast give us the truth

EDIT: reading some of this i think it is safe to say heavy handed tactics from the coalition are making the situation far worse. and allowing such a corrupt government to control the place, it is a farce.
this only exposes how poorly handled the whole situation is and that commanders are putting troops in greater danger themselves
Last edited by imthehitcher at Jul 26, 2010,
#24
Also says Al-Qaeda had a deal with the North Korean government. Why's noone talking about that?
#25
Quote by Shinami
Also says Al-Qaeda had a deal with the North Korean government. Why's noone talking about that?


because it seems speculative, there was only one report and no follow up.
either intelligence isn't doing their job or it's a load of bollocks
#27
right now there's way too much of this crazy leaked shit for me to process
information overload. i'm sure when i have the time to read all of it it'll sink in
and subsequently anger me.
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#28
Quote by gabcd86
Are you fucking serious?

I agree with what dann said up the page, but no. Government for the people, by the people, right? They're doing this stuff in my name, and I should be in possession of the full evidence of what they're doing.

And who are you to decide what we have a right to think? Jesus, it's people like you that nod approvingly as dictators get in power for the good of "national security and order".

You can think what you want. But the fact is, if information being public could possibly hurt the country's national security, then I'm sorry to tell you, you don't deserve to know it. If you honestly think that EVERY bit of information should be known to all, then you need to rethink that.
Rockabilly rules, Okay?
#29
Julian Assange should be shot.
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#30
Should photos of the civil war have been printed? Should the footage of D-Day been recorded and sent back? Should news stations have broadcast video from the Vietnam war?

Civilians have a right to know what's going on in the war their country is fighting, and have a right to know if they feel it's right or not, which means they shouldn't be told a lie to make them nod their head and approve, they should be given the whole truth and allowed to decide if they like it or not. I say damn good job to whoever reported this for giving us this kind of thing in the news instead of pointless paparazzi garbage.
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#31
No sh*t footage and pictures from every war should be shown. But should the details of every mission be released? Maybe even before they happen right? Would you like that? I'm sure that couldn't hurt national security at all.
Rockabilly rules, Okay?
#32
I think people need to stop worrying about whether the war is right or not.
Regardless of whats "right", Afghanistan is a pretty crappy place to fight considering the style of warfare.
We need to finish the war the right way and leave a stable government that can support itself now that we're in there and stirring it all up.
I don't personally think it was a good war to enter, but it doesn't matter now. We're in it and the only way out is to finish what we started.
Bottom line- war sucks. We might not agree with things that are done, but i firmly believe in the lives of the few for the lives of the many when its completely necessary.
We are a brutal species. Anyone who tries to defy or deny that is lying to themselves.
Do I think this should have been leaked? I don't think it really matters. What will this do? Fluctuate the popularity ratings of a few politicians, that's about it.
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#33
I was expecting something like this when I walked into this thread:

Day One: I got off the chopper from America five hours ago. It's been a bloodbath since, we've killed ten British soldiers already!

I am disappointed.
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#34
i dont trust wikileaks that gun camera footage from the apache was total bullshit.

I support the war, im not going to argue or defend my stance to a bunch of people on a forum anymore, civillian deaths will happen, its inevitable, the military tries to avoid them, but its pretty hard when the taliban fire at you from hospitals and churches (which the military isnt allowed to engage), or they set off an IED in a convoy handing out food. Special Forces will always have the hardest jobs in the military, they are always called on to do the hardest and most important jobs, the missions they do might be considered a breach of international law sometimes, but if they are, you wont hear about it. ever. not because our gov't wants to keep us in the dark, but because it is necessary. hypothetical situation here, say the taliban or al qaeda are building a nuke or something, but this factory happens to be in pakistan, or iran, do we let them build it and fire it from there? or call for an invasion? no. its a waste of time and could get many people killed, instead, you send an SF team, with no flags on their uniforms (if they are even wearing any) with non us issued weapons and you go take it out, and i assure you things like this can, and do happen, but you will never hear about it. because 1, you cant go "oh by the way pakistan, we went into your country and shot a bunch of people and blew up your nuke facility" and 2. try telling the public youve been killing people in countries you arent supposed to be in, not a good idea.
you brought a hooker to church?
#35
Fear those who would withhold information you, for they dream of secretly becoming your master. Without the free flow of information the government is able to exert too much influence on the population. A citizen has a right to know how and why his country is conducting a war. Of course if the war is a proxy war over two clashing political ideological movements for socio-economic gain in a large area of the world such disclosure can be damaging. But that's fine because no government is always right. You should love your country but when you need to you should oppose your government.
#36
Quote by Draken
Fear those who would withhold information you, for they dream of secretly becoming your master. Without the free flow of information the government is able to exert too much influence on the population. A citizen has a right to know how and why his country is conducting a war. Of course if the war is a proxy war over two clashing political ideological movements for socio-economic gain in a large area of the world such disclosure can be damaging. But that's fine because no government is always right. You should love your country but when you need to you should oppose your government.


we invaded

we were attacked and bin laden declared war on us for helping israel

there you go
you brought a hooker to church?
#37
You invaded a country for sheltering a group. What right did you have to bomb and attack this entire country for the actions of the few?

So the Taliban are a dictatorship who sheltered someone after he attacked a country that supports a dictatorship that claims to be a democracy.
#38
Quote by Draken
So the Taliban are a dictatorship who sheltered someone after he attacked a country that supports a dictatorship that claims to be a democracy.


yes.

and, the taliban and al qaeda are in afghanistan, the taliban sheltered bin laden and they also control the country so, obviously, they need to be taken out or well just end up back there.

and also, should we have been attacked for helping israel? thats right, i didnt think so.
you brought a hooker to church?
Last edited by ghostnineone at Jul 26, 2010,
#39
Quote by Draken
You invaded a country for sheltering a group. What right did you have to bomb and attack this entire country for the actions of the few?

So the Taliban are a dictatorship who sheltered someone after he attacked a country that supports a dictatorship that claims to be a democracy.

Well you have to realize that we are not at war with the Afghanistan. We are at war with a group that happens to be inside of Afghanistan. We didn't bomb and attack the entire country. We bombed and attacked the areas where the Taliban had strong points and were operating.
Rockabilly rules, Okay?
#40
Quote by Neal5189
Well you have to realize that we are not at war with the Afghanistan. We are at war with a group that happens to be inside of Afghanistan. We didn't bomb and attack the entire country. We bombed and attacked the areas where the Taliban had strong points and were operating.

Too bad it has already caused the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, and I don't see the US leaving Afghanistan anytime soon. Read the article.
OT: Against the war, it should have been leaked, glad it did.

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpP7b2lUxVE
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Last edited by damian_91 at Jul 26, 2010,
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