#1
I'm getting right down to basics at the moment - and am cleaning up my chords.

I noticed i'm a bit rusty on the application of chords and don't quite fully understand where to use them.

I'm talking specifically about the likes of sus chords and extended chords. Obv i know any major/minor chord can be subbed for a 7th of some sort, but how would you use extended chords whilst remaining in key?

For example in the key of C i couldn't use a Gmaj9 without strolling out of key because it's got that F# in there....so can anyone suggest some sort of guides to how to apply 9ths, 11ths, 13ths and sus/aug chords that would be marvy thankyou.
#2
Quote by GilbertsPinky
how would you use extended chords whilst remaining in key?.
the function is the same. the extensions just add color.

Quote by GilbertsPinky

For example in the key of C i couldn't use a Gmaj9 without strolling out of key because it's got that F# in there....so can anyone suggest some sort of guides to how to apply 9ths, 11ths, 13ths and sus/aug chords that would be marvy thankyou.


Well, if you use G9 you stay in key and the chord retains its function.

You might find this diagram handy..

Diatonic Chords

The roman numerals represent the chords at the triad level. Underneath those are the possible extensions. its color coded by chord type. Blue = Maj Red = min green = dom
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 26, 2010,
#3
You can use extensions and stroll out of the key. it is called accidentals and they are used ALL the time. Any dominant 7th or minor 7th chords. As far as SUS chords they are used to lead into a chord...often a one chord... so like Esus to Emaj or something like that.

Now extensions are simply just add ons...like the Gmaj9 is basically the same thing as a Gmaj7 your just adding the extra note in somewhere in the chord
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#4
Well, dissonance when going out of key is a big part in creating tension, which gives chords a massive feel and a song a different feel than just C, G, D, C. But not always. Its just a thought I wanted to plant.

If you think in terms of rhythm and lead, chords open up new dimensions as well. If you go to drop D, and play the open power chords in the key of D (ex. 0,1,2,3,5,7,8,10,12) over top of a 'lead chord' on the higher 3 strings such as (reading from low to high) 10-13-12, 9-6-8, 4-1-3, etc... all of those chords only fit with some of the power chords. But with the notes that do not fit, they allow you to change keys, even though it's 2 notes of the lead chord in one key and 3 in the next. I'll attach a song I wrote with my metal-esque band using this idea. If you don't have tuxguitar already, get it. It's free and allows you to read Guitar Pro files.

The song changes key about 4 times I think. And pay close attention to the lead guitar. I play a minor note in a major chord progression, and use some interesting chords which give each part a unique touch.


http://www.mediafire.com/?9i88vdsy6axc7v6


Link to my song.

Let me know what you think btw.
#5
That diagram is actually really helpful.

And how could i forget that the 5th was usually dominant. Silly me! I was hardcore into the theory about 6 months ago, in prep for Uni, but once Uni told me i needed no official theory qualification i stopped looking at it all together and concentrated on getting my chops up - looks like i need to spend the next 2 months getting back into theory.

Cheers!
#6
CORRECTION: The guy was right about accidentals. Thats the correct term. I explained it all noobish. Lol
#7
extensions are really more popular in jazz music...forgot to mention that...you don't find many of them among rock and pop...or even metal really
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#8
Quote by Angusman60
extensions are really more popular in jazz music...forgot to mention that...you don't find many of them among rock and pop...or even metal really

Yeah but someone's gotta break from the norm eh?

I know all my chords fingering wise, i just didn't know where to place them in progressions/
#9
Quote by Angusman60
You can use extensions and stroll out of the key. it is called accidentals and they are used ALL the time. Any dominant 7th or minor 7th chords. As far as SUS chords they are used to lead into a chord...often a one chord... so like Esus to Emaj or something like that.

Now extensions are simply just add ons...like the Gmaj9 is basically the same thing as a Gmaj7 your just adding the extra note in somewhere in the chord

Any more uses for the sus chords? I've noticed the sus4's tend to lead into it's parent major chord quite nicely...
#10
thats really what sus chords are used for... resolution...
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#11
Quote by GilbertsPinky
I'm getting right down to basics at the moment - and am cleaning up my chords.

I noticed i'm a bit rusty on the application of chords and don't quite fully understand where to use them.

I'm talking specifically about the likes of sus chords and extended chords. Obv i know any major/minor chord can be subbed for a 7th of some sort, but how would you use extended chords whilst remaining in key?

For example in the key of C i couldn't use a Gmaj9 without strolling out of key because it's got that F# in there....so can anyone suggest some sort of guides to how to apply 9ths, 11ths, 13ths and sus/aug chords that would be marvy thankyou.


Hey Gilberts Pinky, long time.

For dominant chords, there really is no limit - Voicings off the dominant are more about colors and not key, you follow the voice leading. use a b9 #9 and it will usually sound fine.

9ths apply to any chord the same way - whether its a major minor, dominant or add9 the location is always the same.

With 7ths you have to determine the type of 7th, most of the time in chords will be a b7, and the only time you use them in chords which specify Major, then you use a major 7th. Use #11 when over a Major 11, to avoid the collision with the Major 3rd.

Intervals of 11's are aka 4ths, and in guitar specifically a note that would be referred to as a 4th normally can many times be referred to as the 11th, and the relative position from the bass note root is given a more distant degree of importance, particularly with Jazz, where the root is oftentimes omitted.

Intervals of 13ths are aka 6ths.

A 9th is simply a second, so unless you have a Phrygian, or Locrian based prog, you'll be safe regardless of if it is Major, Minor or Dominant.

Sus chords are realatively ambiguous as to major or minor so use them as you wish. There should be no clash as there's no 3rds.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Jul 26, 2010,
#12
Well, here's what I understand...

Functions of chords: basically know that I, iii, and vi are considered tonics, ii and IV are considered subdominants, and V and vii are considered dominants. Tonics tend to lead to subdominants which tend to lead to dominants which tend to lead to tonics. You probably know this already. Using this knowledge combined with chord substitution has helped me a lot.

What chords you can play for each degree: Alright, go back and look at your diatonic modes. Now look at the formula for each mode relative to the first note of that mode being a I. All of those intervals relative to that I are intervals you can use when building chords off of that degree.

For instance, the Dorian mode:
1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7

So, on the ii degree of a key, you can use any of those degrees to build harmonize with. This means you can build a minor triad (1-b3-5), a minor seventh (1-b3-5-b7), a minor ninth (1-b3-5-b7-2/9), a minor 11th (1-b3-5-b7-4/11), or a minor 13th (1-b3-5-b7-6/13) over the 2nd degree of whatever scale you happened to be using.

Get me on this? This approach is extremely helpful when you venture into melodic minor or harmonic minor because you can use this same approach to create progressions that will work within those scales.
Last edited by STONESHAKER at Jul 26, 2010,
#13
There is only one tonic

I tonic
ii supertonic
iii mediant
IV sub dominant
V dominant
vi submediant
vii subtonic or leading tone

the way they lead into each other is in a circle progressions which is going "V I"s around the key so...

I V vii iii vii ii V I


edit: you are correct about the modes
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#14
I am aware of the supertonic, etc.

Many books I have read told me that the terms supertonic, mediant, submediant, and leading tone are really not used much anymore and that it's all been simplified into what I said before.

No sense in confusing people; keep it simple.

PS: A circle progression usually moves in fifths, no? One of the Guitar Grimoire refers to the sequence I-V-ii-vi-iii-vii-I as being a circle progression.
Last edited by STONESHAKER at Jul 26, 2010,
#15
it depends on what your using to resolve to I...you can use V or vii...V to I is more common and that one moves in 4ths

and your right they have simplified it in to the number system
but there is still one ONE tonic...not three

the iii chord is never going to be a tonic
the vi is the relative minor to the tonic...but not the tonic
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#17
yes you can go from V to anywhere but you would have to go somewhere else after that to resolve it.

going to vi would be what is called a deceptive cadence because you are going to the relative minor OR a different chord if changing keys...

V I is an authentic cadence

Cadences always resolve to the tonic the only exception is the half cadence which ends on the V chord

but before the cadence you can do whatever you want

point is that there is only one tonic chord haha
2010 Gibson SG Honeyburst
I'm a musician, a composer, and a theory nut. Pleased to meet you! Check out my websites and drop me a line.

"The essence of all beautiful art, all great art, is gratitude. " ~ Freidrich Nietzche


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